In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. It is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.
The Torah is Still Binding and We Must Obey It
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Either Paul only spoke against becoming circumcised for incorrect reasons or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God’s law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason, which should not be mistaken as being as ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God. Jesus spent ministry teaching his followers to obey God’s law by word and by example, so the purpose not to rule that Gentiles shouldn’t be Christians, but rather their purpose was to rule that salvation was by grace rather than by circumcision and they expected that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues (Acts 21:20).
The law does remain for the lawless, who will be judged and condemned by it. Actually, they are
condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son, whereas,
there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son, whereas,
there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked in regard to walking out God’s commands, so verses like Romans 8:1 that speak about those who are in Christ are only speaking about those who are walking in obedience to God’s law.
The Law of God was given by God and the Spirit is God, so the Spirit doesn’t have the role of leading us to rebel against the Law of God, but rather the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to it. In Galatians 5:16-18, we have a choice between following the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit and against the Law of God or walking in the fruit of the Spirit in accordance with the Law of God. The law that we aren’t under when we are led by the Spirit is the law of sin, not the Law of God.
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you just refuted your own argument.
salvation indeed is by grace not thru circumcision.
you do know you arent actualy keeping the law of moses? even passover you arent keeping, or are you killing a lamb and eating it completely with your family? quickly while holding a staff in your hand? thats what the bible demands.
exodus 12:
6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.
even if you make the excuse as all torah observers do that they cant sacrifice animals cause no temple, do you atleast take some lamb blood and put it on your doorframes? you better do it
salvation indeed is by grace not thru circumcision.
you do know you arent actualy keeping the law of moses? even passover you arent keeping, or are you killing a lamb and eating it completely with your family? quickly while holding a staff in your hand? thats what the bible demands.
exodus 12:
6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.
even if you make the excuse as all torah observers do that they cant sacrifice animals cause no temple, do you atleast take some lamb blood and put it on your doorframes? you better do it
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As soon as you inserted the conditional statement, "though I think that Romans 10:5-8 referring to Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith".
Then you are in conflict with the primary doctrine of Christianity.
Romans 10:13 for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".
What you have done is weld the reconciliation of mankind to God through Jesus Christ. With your own legal obedience to the law, thereby generating an alternate gospel. The key word in your interpretation is "though", hence you add, "though I think that Romans 10:5-referring to Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith".
Jesus + obedience to the law = salvation, is a blatant heresy.
What you fail to understand is that the reconciliation that Jesus performed in His own blood. Was a permanent and eternal redemptive act, performed by Jesus alone, a divine reconciliation for humanity. Nothing added, as there is nothing we can do to initiate our own salvation.
"if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"
The death and resurrection of Jesus stands on it's own with no qualification.
The law involves your effort at your own reconciliation, your own attempt at gaining righteousness.
You can join a hundred other heretical organizations that add something to Christ's reconciliation.
Jesus + my obedience = salvation.
Then you are in conflict with the primary doctrine of Christianity.
Romans 10:13 for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".
What you have done is weld the reconciliation of mankind to God through Jesus Christ. With your own legal obedience to the law, thereby generating an alternate gospel. The key word in your interpretation is "though", hence you add, "though I think that Romans 10:5-referring to Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith".
Jesus + obedience to the law = salvation, is a blatant heresy.
What you fail to understand is that the reconciliation that Jesus performed in His own blood. Was a permanent and eternal redemptive act, performed by Jesus alone, a divine reconciliation for humanity. Nothing added, as there is nothing we can do to initiate our own salvation.
"if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"
The death and resurrection of Jesus stands on it's own with no qualification.
The law involves your effort at your own reconciliation, your own attempt at gaining righteousness.
You can join a hundred other heretical organizations that add something to Christ's reconciliation.
Jesus + my obedience = salvation.
You don't need a temple to perform offerings and sacrifices.
Exodus 20:24
You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered.
The key statement in Exodus 20:24 is "in every place where I cause My name to be remembered".
Just slap a stone altar together without tools and make your sacrifice.
The shadow of the law is easy to follow.
Exodus 20:24
You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered.
The key statement in Exodus 20:24 is "in every place where I cause My name to be remembered".
Just slap a stone altar together without tools and make your sacrifice.
The shadow of the law is easy to follow.
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In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness and wickedness is contrary to God’s law, so do you affirm or deny that we should have faith in the promise?
Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone who was an obeyer of God and there is no example of someone having faith inside of obeying God’s will. Christianity is about following Christ, not about refusing to follow him, and he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey God's law by word and by example.
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness add to purify fro himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what accomplished through the cross.
When it comes to God’s law, do you affirm or deny that we should have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong?
Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone who was an obeyer of God and there is no example of someone having faith inside of obeying God’s will. Christianity is about following Christ, not about refusing to follow him, and he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey God's law by word and by example.
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness add to purify fro himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what accomplished through the cross.
When it comes to God’s law, do you affirm or deny that we should have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong?
This is not a matter of faith, because, as you say, the promise has already been fulfilled.
I think you mean "outside".
Christianity is about FAITH in Christ and His finished work, that His death has paid the penalty for my sin and I no longer face judgment for it. Christianity is not merely "following Christ". Without FAITH you cannot please God. Everything else about living life as a Christian is based on that FAITH. If you do everything that Jesus did (short of the miracles) but don't believe that His death paid for your sin, you will pay that penalty yourself. If you (think you) follow the Law perfectly, and expect to be accepted by God on the day of judgment because of that, you will face the horrible reality that your lack of faith is permanently and irrevocably fatal.
Again, this is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of certainty regarding the character of God which is well established in Scripture.
I think you mean "outside".
Christianity is about FAITH in Christ and His finished work, that His death has paid the penalty for my sin and I no longer face judgment for it. Christianity is not merely "following Christ". Without FAITH you cannot please God. Everything else about living life as a Christian is based on that FAITH. If you do everything that Jesus did (short of the miracles) but don't believe that His death paid for your sin, you will pay that penalty yourself. If you (think you) follow the Law perfectly, and expect to be accepted by God on the day of judgment because of that, you will face the horrible reality that your lack of faith is permanently and irrevocably fatal.
Again, this is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of certainty regarding the character of God which is well established in Scripture.
I have not argued that we earn our salvation as the result of having first been circumcised, and in fact I agree that that is not the case, but that we are saved by grace, so I have not refuted my own argument. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. There is a huge difference between the position that our salvation requires us to have first obeying the Mosaic Law in order to earn it as the result, which many verses deny, and the position that we our salvation requires us to be a doer of the Mosaic Law, which many support. For example, in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, in Romans 2:13, only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, and in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In other words, the Mosaic Law was given to teach us what the content of God's gift of salvation is, not as a means of earning our salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn out salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of his gift of saving us from not living in obedient to it.
Do you grant that there can be both legitimate or illegitimate reasons for not following a particular law? For example, not even Jesus followed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. The Israelites were given a number of laws had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so there is not wrong with not following a law that can't currently be followed. Likewise, when the Israelites were exiled in Babylon the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which contained laws in regard to temple practice, which they couldn't obey because the temple had just been destroyed, so God honored their obedience to the laws that they could obey. There are legitimate reasons, not making excuses.
There is a difference between the instructions that were given during the first Passover and how it is cerebrated afterwards in accordance with Deuteronomy 16:1-8. The issue of what I am personally doing is independent of the issue of whether followers of God ought follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, so even if I were living in complete disobedience to the Mosaic Law, then it wouldn't change the fact that followers of God ought to follow what He has commanded in accordance with Christ's example.
Do you grant that there can be both legitimate or illegitimate reasons for not following a particular law? For example, not even Jesus followed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. The Israelites were given a number of laws had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so there is not wrong with not following a law that can't currently be followed. Likewise, when the Israelites were exiled in Babylon the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which contained laws in regard to temple practice, which they couldn't obey because the temple had just been destroyed, so God honored their obedience to the laws that they could obey. There are legitimate reasons, not making excuses.
There is a difference between the instructions that were given during the first Passover and how it is cerebrated afterwards in accordance with Deuteronomy 16:1-8. The issue of what I am personally doing is independent of the issue of whether followers of God ought follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, so even if I were living in complete disobedience to the Mosaic Law, then it wouldn't change the fact that followers of God ought to follow what He has commanded in accordance with Christ's example.
respectfully i would say what you personally are doing matters, you quoted deuteronomy 16:1-8 and i guarantee you arent sacrificing a lamb, no way.
nothing is preventing you from doing it, you could buy a lamb and slaughter it in the woods, but you refuse to obey the commandment
this is my final response as i feel it wont lead to anything fruitful, ive had my dance with the hebrew roots crowd. its always the same backdooring works salvation.
"oh you arent saved by the law of moses, of course not brother its all grace."
-"Phew! you guys have been misunderstood, maybe i will join you guys, Jesus was jewish after all."
-"oh yeah btw, its not that you are saved by the law of moses but, now that you are saved by grace, you better keep it or you will be a worker of lawlessness and be cast out from Jesus."
"*-gulps*"
and here we have another soul entangled.
not every mention of law means law of moses, not every mention of commandments means law of moses
nothing is preventing you from doing it, you could buy a lamb and slaughter it in the woods, but you refuse to obey the commandment
this is my final response as i feel it wont lead to anything fruitful, ive had my dance with the hebrew roots crowd. its always the same backdooring works salvation.
"oh you arent saved by the law of moses, of course not brother its all grace."
-"Phew! you guys have been misunderstood, maybe i will join you guys, Jesus was jewish after all."
-"oh yeah btw, its not that you are saved by the law of moses but, now that you are saved by grace, you better keep it or you will be a worker of lawlessness and be cast out from Jesus."
"*-gulps*"
and here we have another soul entangled.
not every mention of law means law of moses, not every mention of commandments means law of moses
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I agree that what I am personally doing matters, though it is a separate issue. If I am not obeying the Mosaic Law in the manner than I should be, then that means that I need to repent, but it does not mean that I am wrong about the fact that followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example Christ set for us to follow. The Mosaic Law requires sacrifices to be done at the temple with a presiding Levitical priesthood, not for us to do sacrifices in our backyard.
I'm not Hebrew Roots. I don't think that being saved by grace means that we are not required to obey the Law of Moses, but rather I quoted Psalms 119:29-30 to show that that has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must also be an aspect of salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present by being trained by grace to obey God's law through faith. It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so having the experience of being a doer of the Law of Moses through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from not having that experience.
Likewise, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being a doer of good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of God's good of salvation. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is the content of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present.
I completely agree, and in fact it often does not refer to the Law of Moses. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ with the law of sin and death. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted a law that our faith upholds with works of the law that are not of faith. However, if there is nothing in the context that suggests that it is referring specifically to only some of God's commandments and not others, then we should not insert a limitation on which of God's commandments it is referring to.
I'm not Hebrew Roots. I don't think that being saved by grace means that we are not required to obey the Law of Moses, but rather I quoted Psalms 119:29-30 to show that that has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must also be an aspect of salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present by being trained by grace to obey God's law through faith. It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so having the experience of being a doer of the Law of Moses through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of the gift of him saving us from not having that experience.
Likewise, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being a doer of good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of God's good of salvation. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is the content of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present.
I completely agree, and in fact it often does not refer to the Law of Moses. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ with the law of sin and death. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted a law that our faith upholds with works of the law that are not of faith. However, if there is nothing in the context that suggests that it is referring specifically to only some of God's commandments and not others, then we should not insert a limitation on which of God's commandments it is referring to.
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Are they doing that? No. Are you attending temple sacrifices? No. Are you providing animals for sacrifice? No. Are you
following the law? No. Are you keeping the commandments contained in the 613 you say are written on our hearts? No.
In short, you do not do the very thing you keep telling others they should be doing.
following the law? No. Are you keeping the commandments contained in the 613 you say are written on our hearts? No.
In short, you do not do the very thing you keep telling others they should be doing.
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In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone under both the Mosaic and New Covenants. It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we are not obligated to obey it is the position that we do not need salvation. Being an obeyer of the Mosaic Law is intrinsically the content of God's gift of saving us from not being an obeyer of it.
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I've given examples in the Bible where people were not required to obey laws that they can't currently obey, so you are more concerned with trying to gotcha than with whether your position is supported by the Bible. I'm not telling people that they should be doing sacrifices in their backyards, so it is not the case that that is an example of me telling people to do things that I am not doing. Moreover, even if it were the case that I was living in complete disobedience to the Mosaic Law, then it would just mean that I would need to repent, not that I was wrong about the fact that followers of God should follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.
Christ is God's word made flesh, which he expressed by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's word, so obeying God's word is the way to accept Christ while rejecting God's word is the way to reject him. Jesus is the embodiment of God's word, so he is not a way to the Father that is an alternative to embodying God's word through following what he taught. In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life, so that the word of faith that I proclaim and that you deny.
Christ is God's word made flesh, which he expressed by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's word, so obeying God's word is the way to accept Christ while rejecting God's word is the way to reject him. Jesus is the embodiment of God's word, so he is not a way to the Father that is an alternative to embodying God's word through following what he taught. In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life, so that the word of faith that I proclaim and that you deny.
Your position is not supported by the Bible. Christians are under a New Covenant, not a
covenant that was given to others which is old and passing away, becoming obsolete.
You are ignoring Jesus' words, by pouring new wine into an old wineskin, sewing a new patch on old clothing.
You should stop lying.
covenant that was given to others which is old and passing away, becoming obsolete.
You are ignoring Jesus' words, by pouring new wine into an old wineskin, sewing a new patch on old clothing.
You should stop lying.
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Ummm.....this, as you stated, is actually a forum and therefore not the place to expect proper teachers/leaders, whatever, as it is basically a landing place where all may, within the limits and context of the rules of this forum, express themselves even as do you.
God forbid we should have moderators who at their express will would ban all who do not agree 100% with them.
Perhaps evil lies more in the company of those who desire to squash any sort of dissent. That being said, there are some tolerant moderators here and perhaps the owner himself, and that is the way, apparently, they have decided to 'put up with' quite a bit but do ban certain people from time to time.
ps: I can assure you that it is not just Christian forums where nit-picking occurs. Church, that is the edifice in which a person hopes to find actual Christians, is rife with much of the same. To which, the ineffectiveness of the church in this day, illustrates the sad reality of that sin of gossip, nit-picking, actual hatred, jealousy and all the other practices we are supposed to rid ourselves of.
God forbid we should have moderators who at their express will would ban all who do not agree 100% with them.
Perhaps evil lies more in the company of those who desire to squash any sort of dissent. That being said, there are some tolerant moderators here and perhaps the owner himself, and that is the way, apparently, they have decided to 'put up with' quite a bit but do ban certain people from time to time.
ps: I can assure you that it is not just Christian forums where nit-picking occurs. Church, that is the edifice in which a person hopes to find actual Christians, is rife with much of the same. To which, the ineffectiveness of the church in this day, illustrates the sad reality of that sin of gossip, nit-picking, actual hatred, jealousy and all the other practices we are supposed to rid ourselves of.