The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

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iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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KJV1611 said:
I think the restitution of all things is still future.

Here is my view of the resurrection, and I believe this is what Paul believed also - the resurrection HAS NOT PAST ALREADY. The firstfruits of the first resurrection started with the resurrection of Jesus and MANY bodies of the saints which slept. There are more bodies to be raised later.

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I think the new heavens and new earth has already came... I'm open for correction on any of this, and honestly do want to be corrected if I'm wrong. But just a heads up lol, just because it's written in the last part of Revelation is not evidence for me. ;)
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lol, I would not base what I think on the portion of Revelation being spoken of in the last several chapters of Rev.,,,namely ch.21 but instead on the dialog found in it. That is in that in both the just and the unjust were resurrected by the time of the new earth and new heavens/new Jerusalem ect. which is why I listed the Scriptures I gave in my former post. Why again is that you see this as past tense and Paul in the Scriptures I gave you does not see it past but rather "about to be"(future to ad57).

So I ask you when you think this had taken place. My reasoning is that if the time frame of Acts 24:15 is around ad57(and Paul thinks it's about to take place) then Paul thinks that it had not taken place prior to ad57. And so it would then be after this date(ad57) in Paul's mind. This I think is why many preterist see this in an ad70 position.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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iamsoandso said:
lol, I would not base what I think on the portion of Revelation being spoken of in the last several chapters of Rev.,,,namely ch.21 but instead on the dialog found in it. That is in that in both the just and the unjust were resurrected by the time of the new earth and new heavens/new Jerusalem ect. which is why I listed the Scriptures I gave in my former post. Why again is that you see this as past tense and Paul in the Scriptures I gave you does not see it past but rather "about to be"(future to ad57).

So I ask you when you think this had taken place. My reasoning is that if the time frame of Acts 24:15 is around ad57(and Paul thinks it's about to take place) then Paul thinks that it had not taken place prior to ad57. And so it would then be after this date(ad57) in Paul's mind. This I think is why many preterist see this in an ad70 position.
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I'm assuming that you don't think the saints that rose with Christ were part of the first resurrection, and that they didn't ascend with Christ when he ascended and they died later... Is this right? Not trying to put words in your mouth but I'm trying to see where you stand on that.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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KJV1611 said:
I'm assuming that you don't think the saints that rose with Christ were part of the first resurrection, and that they didn't ascend with Christ when he ascended and they died later... Is this right? Not trying to put words in your mouth but I'm trying to see where you stand on that.
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In Acts 2:29 Peter thought David to be with them in his tomb shall I disagree with an Apostle filled with the Holy Spirit or hold to that same position?
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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iamsoandso said:
In Acts 2:29 Peter thought David to be with them in his tomb shall I disagree with an Apostle filled with the Holy Spirit or hold to that same position?
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Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
I get exactly what you're saying. But there are a few things to consider here.

First is that yes, David was both dead and buried but does that verse say that David was STILL IN his sepulchre? I realize the verse says IS DEAD but that can be read two ways.

David is both dead and buried meaning that David did die and was buried and his body saw corruption. In contrast Jesus died and was buried but his body did not see corruption.

Or - It could be read as you read it, David is both dead and buried meaning that he is presently dead and buried.

Also the bible says that MANY, but not all of the saints, rose that day, David may not have been one of them to rise. I don't think that at all but just bringing that up as a possibility.

We also know that Jesus returns the same way he left... he's coming back with 10,000's of his saints, that means he left with them.

We also know that when Jesus ascended "He led the captivity captive". If I"m not mistaken you're pretty good with Old Testament scriptures, all throughout the Old Testament the Jews are called "the captivity".
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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KJV1611 said:
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
I get exactly what you're saying. But there are a few things to consider here.

First is that yes, David was both dead and buried but does that verse say that David was STILL IN his sepulchre? I realize the verse says IS DEAD but that can be read two ways.

David is both dead and buried meaning that David did die and was buried and his body saw corruption. In contrast Jesus died and was buried but his body did not see corruption.

Or - It could be read as you read it, David is both dead and buried meaning that he is presently dead and buried.

Also the bible says that MANY, but not all of the saints, rose that day, David may not have been one of them to rise. I don't think that at all but just bringing that up as a possibility.

We also know that Jesus returns the same way he left... he's coming back with 10,000's of his saints, that means he left with them.

We also know that when Jesus ascended "He led the captivity captive". If I"m not mistaken you're pretty good with Old Testament scriptures, all throughout the Old Testament the Jews are called "the captivity".
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You missed Acts 2:34,,,."David did not ascent into heaven..."
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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iamsoandso said:
You missed Acts 2:34,,,."David did not ascent into heaven..."
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Purposely lol, Acts is talking about Jesus going to the Father PRIOR to his ascension in Acts 1.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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Good night soandso it's 1:00 AM here and I have to go to bed... hope to talk with you again tomorrow. BTW where are you located... Indiana USA here.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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KJV1611 said:
Purposely lol, Acts is talking about Jesus going to the Father PRIOR to his ascension in Acts 1.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
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Indeed, "touch me not for I have not yet,,," then Thomas "lest I put my fingers in..." then Jesus "touch me and see that a spirit hath not flesh and bone",ect ect.

Then,,,Luke 22:16,,,Luke 24:42 then Luke 22:16 then John 19:28 "in the kingdom"

But then we will be back to Acts 2:35 and then 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 where Peter spoke of it in Acts 2 right and Paul in Corinthians?
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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KJV1611 said:
Good night soandso it's 1:00 AM here and I have to go to bed... hope to talk with you again tomorrow. BTW where are you located... Indiana USA here.
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good night my friend,sweet dreams...
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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GaryA said:
I may be a little confused now???

You do realize that I have a post-trib / pre-wrath view of the Rapture - right?
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Yes, I was aware of that. It almost seems like halfway into my first paragraph I started addressing a whole different subject. Maybe I mixed yours up with another I read, or stopped halfway through and came back to it talking, whatever the case it doesn't even make sense to me either. I truly try to word everything I post thoughtfully, but I can't lie this one doesn't make sense. I think I started mixing the comment to you with another comment or something, but I did know that's your view, and agree 100% what I was saying stopped applying to your view early in the comment. I don't know man?:unsure: just disregard all that doesn't apply I guess. :LOL:
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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KJV1611 said:
TheDivineWatermark said: [Re: Rev6:2 "he that sat on him [/horse] had a bow"]
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The Bow
The bow doesn't have an arrow because it's a RAINBOW. Joseph foreshadowing Jesus wore a coat of many colors... why? Because it symbolizes A COVENANT between God and man.
Gen_9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
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The FIRST 3 mentions of "bow" in the OT indeed refer to "My bow in the cloud" (rainbow):

--Genesis 9:13 (recall I've pointed out the connection btw Gen9:1 and Dan2:35 and Matt24:36-41/Lk17:26-37 [referring to His Second Coming to the earth ("Son of man cometh")]); "a covenant between Me and the earth"

--Genesis 9:14 "when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud"

--Genesis 9:16 "...the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth"


The LAST 3 mentions of "bow" in the OT refer to "a battle bow" (and involve "horse / horses"):

--Zechariah 9:10

--Zechariah 9:13

--Zechariah 10:4 [see also vv.6-12]


Now, I (like you, I imagine) am not saying that because Rev6 mentions "a bow," that this means it is referring to what took place in history when the "rainbow" was first set in the sky, or when [/if] the Zechariah "battle bow" referred to [/may have referred to]… I'm simply showing the first 3 mentions refer to the former "kind of bow," whereas the last 3 mentions refer to the latter "kind of bow," and to ask, WHICH OF THESE TWO KIND seems to better correlate with what the imagery in Rev6:2 suggests...??
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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… in fact, as I see it, if we understand the LAST 3 mentions (re: "the battle bow" [involving "horse"]), then (IMO) it makes the FIRST 3 mentions come into clearer focus (that is, as they pertain "to the earth" [which correlates, as I've stated, with the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [not our Rapture]; Matt24/Lk17 etc = 2nd Coming to the earth [not our Rapture]; "as the days of Noah were [see also Gen9 again], so shall also the coming of the SON OF MAN be" [ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come" refer to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH for the MK age])
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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^ the 24 elders with crowns of gold and sitting on 24 thrones (and saying what they do, in Rev5:9), are shown to be IN HEAVEN *before* the opening of the FIRST SEAL

(and after a "searching judgment" has taken place, as indicated by the "was found" phrase [like is used also in the judgment/court trials of Paul in the latter parts of Acts])
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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GaryA said:
In what part of Texas do you reside?

You tellin'...?
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In the big thicket around upland Island,Nancy but I spend quite a bit of time at MD Anderson,Altus or Baptist Hospital with different treatments. where are you?
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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GaryA said:
In the Tyler area.

Perhaps one day we can meet...?
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Not that I would have any problem with it but I am not able to travel alone anymore. I cant go to town,or even walk in my yard anymore. I tried to go out today but could not stay outside but around fifteen minutes(was 102 at my house,lol). I was born with asthma and my lung's they tell me function from 23% to 38% and I have a slow growing form of cancer and so I'm on a breathing machine and nebulizer ect.

My mothers family was from Kilgore but moved a little after the New London school explosion(1937 I think). Several of my family members,built the old wooden oil derricks around there and went to help when it happened(uncles,grandfather ect). I grew up outside Galveston and had five sons. One died a few years ago but then I ended up needing to live closer to the others so they can help me, I cant take care of myself or my wife anymore,lol(80'ish).
 
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