The Tribulation

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,876
2,211
113
#21
Well let's examine your statement Ahwatukee..



No. Jesus points the reader to Daniel. Unless you understand Daniel, you are clutching at straws.

Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

The Abomination of Desolation and the period of great suffering (tribulation) are a unity, and can only really be understood properly from Daniel. (Yes Luke implies that it is a long time, the time of the nations, but only a full understanding of Daniel
can explain it in its entirety). Now clearly Daniel is somewhat complex and is sealed (encrypted), but as we approach the
end of this 2000 year period, it becomes more obvious what Daniel means.
You don't know what you are talking about here. The great tribulation is not 2000 years in length. You're introducing false information. You need to take your own advice. As I said, Daniel 9:27 has the tribulation as being seven years in length, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation. The abomination will be an idolatrous object that will be set up in the holy place within the temple, which is the room just outside of the Holy of Holies where the Ark of the Covenant resided.

"And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Tribulation = seven years in length

Abomination = set up in the middle of the seven years

Great Tribulation = Last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period which begins at the setting up of the abomination.

In addition, it is this last seven years in which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place and we haven't even seen the first seal opened yet, which is representing the antichrist.
 

peldom10

Active member
May 22, 2020
405
59
28
#22
The so-called Great Tribulation is a punishment inflicted on the old testament Jews who did not accept Jesus.
It is a period of approximately 2000 years.

Any theology of 'pre' and 'mid' tribulaton is really meaningless,
and 'post' likewise, since in general this is operating under the same
misapprehension.

if we understand Daniel correctly, then we can build an eschatology on a proper foundation

Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.

I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
Geepers...these new age religion books are everywhere.
Study 1611 KJV version of the Bible and the coming ....great tribulation...... will come into focus...quickly.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
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#23
You don't know what you are talking about here. The great tribulation is not 2000 years in length. You're introducing false information. You need to take your own advice. As I said, Daniel 9:27 has the tribulation as being seven years in length, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation. The abomination will be an idolatrous object that will be set up in the holy place within the temple, which is the room just outside of the Holy of Holies where the Ark of the Covenant resided.

"And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is he who waits and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Tribulation = seven years in length

Abomination = set up in the middle of the seven years

Great Tribulation = Last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period which begins at the setting up of the abomination.

In addition, it is this last seven years in which the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place and we haven't even seen the first seal opened yet, which is representing the antichrist.
Why do you always start with an insult?
It's a trademark with you.
My general feeling is that I am not interested in discussing with
this kind of person.
At this point I either have to reply in a personal way, or just walk away.
It's not my problem - so I walk away.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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#24
^ ... [whereas Dan9:26b's "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" includes:



--the 70ad "desolaTION [singular] thereof [of Jerusalem]" Luke 21:23,20 and context; AND

--the "your house... LEFT to you DESOLATE... UNTIL" Matt23:38-39 (and parallels); AND

--"the AOD [singular]" at MID-trib (far-future) Matt24:15,21
it's an interesting point TDW, but Matthew's note is for the reader to understand...
The AoD as you mentioned, is referred to 3 times, and in a multiple form once.
Clearly you are being invited by Matthew to unpack all that to understand exactly
what it means.
[By referring to the Abominations in the plural, it is actually a clarification, if you think about it.]
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,007
607
113
London
#25
The so-called Great Tribulation is a punishment inflicted on the old testament Jews who did not accept Jesus.
It is a period of approximately 2000 years.

Any theology of 'pre' and 'mid' tribulaton is really meaningless,
and 'post' likewise, since in general this is operating under the same
misapprehension.

if we understand Daniel correctly, then we can build an eschatology on a proper foundation

Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.

I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
Umm just a minute

God isn't punishing Israel during this time of tribulation, your scripture says Michael will stand up for them, the great Prince which standeth for your people and they shall be delivered.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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#26
Umm just a minute

God isn't punishing Israel during this time of tribulation, your scripture says Michael will stand up for them, the great Prince which standeth for your people and they shall be delivered.
Of course he is-vessels of wrath.
yes, the Church is delivered.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
344
104
43
#27
The so-called Great Tribulation is a punishment inflicted on the old testament Jews who did not accept Jesus.
It is a period of approximately 2000 years.

Any theology of 'pre' and 'mid' tribulaton is really meaningless,
and 'post' likewise, since in general this is operating under the same
misapprehension.

if we understand Daniel correctly, then we can build an eschatology on a proper foundation

Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.

I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
I'm not familiar with this. But this is what the passion translation of Roman 3:25 says:

"Jesus’ God-given destiny was to be the sacrifice to take away sins, and now he is our mercy seat because of his death on the cross. We come to him for mercy, for God has made a provision for us to be forgiven by faith in the sacred blood of Jesus. This is the perfect demonstration of God’s justice, because until now, he had been so patient—holding back his justice out of his tolerance for us. So he covered over the sins of those who lived prior to Jesus’ sacrifice." - Romans 3:25 TPT
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,007
607
113
London
#28
Of course he is-vessels of wrath.
yes, the Church is delivered.
God says they are beloved, how then are they vessels of wrath? Michael does not have charge of the church, the Holy Spirit has charge of the church. Michael has charge of the Jews.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
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#29
God says they are beloved, how then are they vessels of wrath? Michael does not have charge of the church, the Holy Spirit has charge of the church. Michael has charge of the Jews.
I think being beloved is really a future promise

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


The Law is a curse, and anyone who remains under it is under a curse.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
 
Jun 9, 2021
7
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#30
I can't wait for Daniels 70th week! Catching away is coming soon Brethren! ☺♥
 
Oct 23, 2020
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#31
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Yes, maybe you are right. Michael works for Israel.
Therefore he is there to back up Jesus's mission.
But I can't pretend to fully understand the first verses of Dan12....
ideas?
 
Oct 23, 2020
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#32
The logical sequence is:

Herod dies 4BC [end of chapter 11]
And at that time [around 4BC - ergo birth of Christ]
shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
[2 millenia or so from the destruction of Jerusalem to Israel becoming a nation again]
and at that time [when Israel has been reconstructed] thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
344
104
43
#33
Where is this 2000 year figure coming from? And where is this speculation coming from that anyone can be saved without Christ?
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
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#34
Where is this 2000 year figure coming from? And where is this speculation coming from that anyone can be saved without Christ?
b) Not sure what you mean.

good question. All the times are in Daniel.
But a quick shorthand is 2000 years -

Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.


Luke 12:38
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
8,961
2,316
113
#35
The so-called Great Tribulation is a punishment inflicted on the old testament Jews who did not accept Jesus.
It is a period of approximately 2000 years.

Any theology of 'pre' and 'mid' tribulaton is really meaningless,
and 'post' likewise, since in general this is operating under the same
misapprehension.

if we understand Daniel correctly, then we can build an eschatology on a proper foundation

Daniel 12 And at that time [TIME OF THE LORD] shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

From the time there was a nation to the same time, when there was a nation.

I.E. From the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) existed as a nation,
to the time when Judea (and Jerusalem) exist as a nation.
That is to say for the best part of 2000 years.
No
No mark
No hailstones of fire
No flying scorpions
No ac
No buying/ selling prohibited

Grand canyon leap to say gt came and went
 
Feb 22, 2021
347
102
43
Midwest
#36
Oh wonderful, just wonderful.
Precious friend, I don't know if you are as OLD as I, but I remember
Lawrence Welk would say, after a harmonious orchestral piece,
"wunnerful, wunnerful, wunnerful!" Too bad this won't apply to:

all these prophecy EXPERTS, who harmoniously Disagree with each other,
eh? :)
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,263
498
83
#37
I agree with you, the days/times of Great Tribulation were/are for the Jews as punishment...exactly as the Messiah said. Daniel's concern was not for the world but was for his people.

Daniel is told a timeframe for this "trouble" as well as the "purpose" of this trouble (i.e. what it was meant to accomplish).


Daniel 12:7
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Timeframe: Time, Times, Half-Time

Purpose: To SCATTER the power of the people


This was SWORN to be the case. So setting aside the timeframe for a moment we know the "trouble" has to have been during a portion of these last 2000 some odd years because the Jews are now scattered around the world. That time of trouble was accomplished exactly as promised.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,802
3,291
113
#38
Precious friend, I don't know if you are as OLD as I, but I remember
Lawrence Welk would say, after a harmonious orchestral piece,
"wunnerful, wunnerful, wunnerful!" Too bad this won't apply to:

all these prophecy EXPERTS, who harmoniously Disagree with each other,
eh? :)
Yes I am old enough for Lawrence Welk...just never watched him or Bobby and Sissy. LOL
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
1,090
202
63
#39
So much misunderstanding on all these issues makes me wonder if we study and if we ask God to reveal His wonders unto us, or if we just accept what other men have passed down unto as truths, which in reality are men's truths.
BINGO!!!!! You hit the nail on the head!!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,876
2,211
113
#40
So much misunderstanding on all these issues makes me wonder if we study and if we ask God to reveal His wonders unto us, or if we just accept what other men have passed down unto as truths, which in reality are men's truths.

Then Nehemiah 66 says God "SHORTENS THE TRIBULATION" but God/Jesus never says no such thing, at least as he and others understand it. I can't understand how people can't get these simple concepts right. God makes the 70th week centered around a 1260 event in the Middle of the Week, but we are supposed to believe God CHANGES His plans and designs, which would late all prophecy, all because people see Jesus saying that He and the Father SHORTENED the coming tribulation period, but they fail to comprehend that God/Jesus SHORTENED IT to the PLANNED 7 YEARS !! God doesn't have to REPLAN ANYTHING. Jesus is telling us that the TROUBLES that will come were PREPLANNED to only be allowed to last 7 years via the 70th week and 3.5 years via the Greatest ever Troubles on this earth. God doesn't shorten the coming 3.5 years of troubles, he SHORTENED what the Anti-Christ would have pulled off on this earth if God/Jesus had not decided with PRE KNOWLEDGE to end those troubles after 3.5 years, and thus announced via PROPHECY that the Beast would rule 1260 days. That 1270 days IS THE SHORTENED PERIOD. Doesn't Jesus kill him? Well is not that Gid shortening the life span of the Beast to 1260 days? These things are not that complex tbh. God can not lie, so He says the est rules for 1260 days and Jesus says the Tribulation will be SHORTENED, and people actually can not grasp that Jesus is saying from a NATURAL LIFE SPAN top only 1260 days !!
You are correct here it that, the predetermined time is 7 years. When Jesus says, "If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved," He is basically saying 'If the time was allowed to go beyond the predetermined 7 years and specifically the last 3 1/2 years, then no one on earth would survive.' So you are correct in your understanding of this.

The 70 weeks are designed to get Israel to repent, IF, they had repented 2000 years ago I am convinced Jesus would have set the Kingdom up in 70 AD and saved them from the Romans at that time, but God knowing all knew they would not repent. So, God turned His back on Israel for nigh 2000 years, allowing the YOUNGER Gentiles to gain the mantle just like He did Jacob over Esau.
If Israel would have repented at that time then it would mean that Jesus would not have been crucified and all of the prophesies regarding Him such as Psalms 16:10 "They pierced My hands and My feet" would not have been fulfilled and we would all still be in our sins, because there would be no blood covering our sins. Just sayin.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus tells us ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation. So, the Church Age is Tribulation, the 70th week is tribulation, and the 3.5 years is the GREATEST EVER TRIBULATIONS SEEN.

And in REv. 20:4 we CLEARLY SEE that those who refused the Mark of the Beast are ALL JUDGED here in Rev. 20:4 which is AFTER the Second Coming !! So, scripture specifically tells us those seen in REv. 7:9-17 can not be from the 70th week, yet we just go on believing it's them anyway !! (Not me of course, I know those are from the GREAT CHURCH AGE TRIBULATION, where millions of our brothers were indeed slaughtered for the name of Jesus)

You have the timing points correct, but your analysis of Israel's punishment is off a wee bit. But your timing is spot on.

Your error here is that you are pigeonholing the word 'Tribulation.' The trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have as a result of our faith in Him, is what believers have been experiencing for 2000 years up to this present day. These tribulations come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness.

In opposition, the tribulation during that last seven years will be God's tribulation, His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. This is also the time that He will deal with Israel and Jerusalem in fulfillment of the decree that was made regarding the 70 sevens "to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place." That said, the church will not be exposed to that seven years of God's tribulation/wrath, because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer within the church, satisfying it completely.

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed." - Isaiah 53:5

This is why those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, (2000 some odd year Church Age Period), because God can describe more than one thing s GREAT, it is us who try to limit His vocabulary.
That group that no one can count from every nation, people, tribe and language (Gentiles), are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.

John had previously written letters to the seven churches. Then in Chapter seven he sees this group of which the elder asks him "These in white robes who are they are where did they come from." The very fact that the elder is asking John this demonstrates that this is not the church but another group. In further support of this, John doesn't know who they are.

Something to always keep in mind is the absence of the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church.' Throughout Revelation chapters 1 thru 3 the word ekklesia/church is used 19 times, with the last appearance being at the very end of chapter 3. After that it suddenly disappears from print and with good reason. The next event that takes place is that John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet which says, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." That voice that sounds like a trumpet is the same one that was speaking with John identified as the Lord Jesus in Rev.1:10, which is another clue to the reader. In 1 Thess.4:16, we read the following:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

That "Trumpet of God" in 1 Thess.4:16 is synonymous with that voice that will sound like a trumpet saying "come up here" in Rev.4:1

The key to understanding the chronological order is found in Revelation 1:19 when Jesus told John to write:

What you have seen = Everything John wrote from Rev.1:1 to Rev.1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which is also represents the entire church age

What will take place later = The events which take place after the "what is now," i.e. what takes place after the church period

That said, we are currently still living in the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write. Very soon now that voice that sounds like a trumpet is going to say "come up here" resurrecting the dead, changing the living in Christ and removing us from the earth. Once that takes place, then the "what will take place later" will begin. This is exactly why the word ekklesia/church is no longer seen after the end of chapter 3 and is nowhere to be found in the narrative of God's wrath. The next time the word appears is in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative. The church is also referred to as the bride in Rev.19:6-8 as she is attending the wedding of the Lamb in heaven, which again demonstrates that the church/bride is already in heaven.

Once the church has been gathered from the earth as promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess.4:16-17, then God will pick up right where He left off with Israel and Jerusalem in fulfillment of that 70th seven year period, know as the tribulation, the hour of trial, the wrath of God. The events of wrath in Revelation will be the fulfillment of the long prophesied 'Day of the Lord.'

Those in the 70t week do not get Raptured to Heaven, Jesus reveals this unto us in TWO WAYS. The 5th Seal and in Rev. 20:4. Jesus SPECIFICALLY STATES that those under the Altar at the 5th Seal will not gain vengeance until ALL of their brothers have been killed in LIKE MANNER as they have [by the Anti-Christ over his 42-month rule].
Those martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal, will be those who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The church will have already been gather to the Lord prior to the 1st seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. Their brothers who are killed in like manner will be those saints who die during the last 3 1/2 years by order of the beast. These are the same ones who are mentioned in Rev.13:7 of whom the beast makes war against and conquers for 42 months, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period. They are also those who John sees being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.