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Nonsense.
When you read the NT you will see that most of it was not written by Greeks.
For example John uses very simpleGreek, Matthew uses so many aramaisms and hebraisms and the Hebrews is totally not of a Greek man origin.
Also Pauline letters are clearly written by somebody who knows judaism too well for it being some kind of forgery.
Apostolic creed is build upon three persons of God: "I believe in Father... in Son... and in the Holy Spirit".
When you read the NT you will see that most of it was not written by Greeks.
For example John uses very simpleGreek, Matthew uses so many aramaisms and hebraisms and the Hebrews is totally not of a Greek man origin.
Also Pauline letters are clearly written by somebody who knows judaism too well for it being some kind of forgery.
Apostolic creed is build upon three persons of God: "I believe in Father... in Son... and in the Holy Spirit".
I'm sorry you believe that way brother, and to shock you. Keep reading scripture without fear and in confidence. It does take years to discover gems. So we are not in Christ today and will not fully realize this in our new eternal bodies I take it according to your response.It has to be a yes or no and not a maybe answer. Ponder on it for a while. My sources are all from scripture...are your thought of the same source?
In Christ, Always
In Christ, Always
Theopoesis is one of a threefold path in mystic eastern orthodoxy. I do not think we can know what we will become when we will be like Him, as John says.
So I am not qualified at all to say anything about this
But yeah, I know this idea.
So I am not qualified at all to say anything about this
But yeah, I know this idea.
It is ironic that the devil in the 'garden' said that Eve would be as a god (paraphrasing). He was correct on this point to a degree although lied about the timing. Since their disobedience we are getting restored back to this position with God Almighty.
Further, those that are not in Christ today will not be 'a deity' through and because of the source of Christ and God. Those in the 'pit' will live with eternal bodies although they will have no power through God (separation), beyond what their own spirit can muster. I guess it would be like being strapped down in a wheelchair with hardly any movement and seeing others with youth and vibrancy. There will be sadness and regret in that place indeed.
Praise the Lord and out God Almighty
IN Christ Always.
Brother: There is nothing mystic about it. After years of scripture study independent of any formal teachings etc I came to this conclusion.
It is ironic that the devil in the 'garden' said that Eve would be as a god (paraphrasing). He was correct on this point to a degree although lied about the timing. Since their disobedience we are getting restored back to this position with God Almighty.
Further, those that are not in Christ today will not be 'a deity' through and because of the source of Christ and God. Those in the 'pit' will live with eternal bodies although they will have no power through God (separation), beyond what their own spirit can muster. I guess it would be like being strapped down in a wheelchair with hardly any movement and seeing others with youth and vibrancy. There will be sadness and regret in that place indeed.
Praise the Lord and out God Almighty
IN Christ Always.
It is ironic that the devil in the 'garden' said that Eve would be as a god (paraphrasing). He was correct on this point to a degree although lied about the timing. Since their disobedience we are getting restored back to this position with God Almighty.
Further, those that are not in Christ today will not be 'a deity' through and because of the source of Christ and God. Those in the 'pit' will live with eternal bodies although they will have no power through God (separation), beyond what their own spirit can muster. I guess it would be like being strapped down in a wheelchair with hardly any movement and seeing others with youth and vibrancy. There will be sadness and regret in that place indeed.
Praise the Lord and out God Almighty
IN Christ Always.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology)
According to some streams in Orthodoxy, our life is composed of three stages or paths:
1. Katarsis (Cleaning)
- we get rid of sin, uncleaness, evil in heart etc etc, we are transforming our minds to be more like the mind of Christ
2. Theoria (Learning, gaining knowledge)
- we learn and get more and more information, knowledge and wisdom
2. Theosis/theopoesis (divinization)
- union with God in life, mind, thinking etc
----
I find this interesting and I actually accept it.
The only problem I have with your view is that, it seems to me you are taking "theosis" too much to extreme. Union with God will not makes us to be other persons of Trinity.
Also, consider that Genesis does not say "being like God", but "being like God knowing good and evil [this is the aspect they meant, not the change of our nature]"
----
The place from John is much better in my opinion:
Ἀγαπητοί, νῦν τέκνα Θεοῦ ἐσμεν, καὶ οὔπω ἐφανερώθη τί ἐσόμεθα. οἴδαμεν ὅτι ἐὰν φανερωθῇ ὅμοιοι αὐτῷ ἐσόμεθα, ὅτι ὀψόμεθα αὐτὸν καθώς ἐστιν.
"Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will become similar to Him, for we will see Him as He is."
We will be like Him, because we will see Him as He is. Whatever that means regarding our future and our new nature in the future, its source will be Christ, we will not become independent gods or persons in deity.
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So akap, what is there to ponder? I mean you were extremely clear when you said the following to me: "Now there is much more to tell, and even the dozen or verses you have cited can be easily be debunked THAT THE TRINITY OR JESUS IS AND WAS NEVER GOD."
So go ahead akap, debunk John 20:28, Titus 3:13, 2 Peter 1:1 or Hebrews 1:8. Go ahead you choose just one of those verses to debunk because I do not want to overwhelm you with the facts. The bottom line is this? You cannot possibly be a Christian and deny the deity of Jesus Christ, it's impossible. You also close you post with "In Christ, Always." How are you in Jesus Christ if He is not God?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So go ahead akap, debunk John 20:28, Titus 3:13, 2 Peter 1:1 or Hebrews 1:8. Go ahead you choose just one of those verses to debunk because I do not want to overwhelm you with the facts. The bottom line is this? You cannot possibly be a Christian and deny the deity of Jesus Christ, it's impossible. You also close you post with "In Christ, Always." How are you in Jesus Christ if He is not God?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
No bronson, I am not beaming with glee. In fact I am heartbroken even to the point of tears that your lost as rain. Secondly, quoting the Bible and understanding the quotes are two different things. You said this to me: You might like to read Archie in Greek Philosophy, it too toys with the theoretical sense of the word. Look also at the Catholic Encyclopedia and the complications of introducing the trinity, which makes Jesus equal to God.
Is Jesus his own father, is the father his own father and the two of them the father of the Holy Spirit, or is the Holy Spirit the father of both of the other two fathers....I wont go and farther. or is the further father."
I addressed what you said and now your making excuses by making me the subject of your Biblical ineptness instead of actually dealing with the text. This does not surprise me and it's so obvious that your the one speaking from the rear. Oh yea, you also said that your only the messenger? What does that mean, do you or don't you believe the message your delivering?
Finally, I am "NOT" interested in any kind of "victory." I'm here to engage theological innovators like yourself and by challenging your claims (and these are your claims messenger) and to expose the errors of your assumptions, inferences and conclusions for any interested parties to see for themselves. And I have to say your doing a good job in assisting me, so thank you!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Is Jesus his own father, is the father his own father and the two of them the father of the Holy Spirit, or is the Holy Spirit the father of both of the other two fathers....I wont go and farther. or is the further father."
I addressed what you said and now your making excuses by making me the subject of your Biblical ineptness instead of actually dealing with the text. This does not surprise me and it's so obvious that your the one speaking from the rear.
Oh yea, you also said that your only the messenger? What does that mean, do you or don't you believe the message your delivering? Finally, I am "NOT" interested in any kind of "victory." I'm here to engage theological innovators like yourself and by challenging your claims (and these are your claims messenger
) and to expose the errors of your assumptions, inferences and conclusions for any interested parties to see for themselves. And I have to say your doing a good job in assisting me, so thank you! IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You don't shock me, you sadden me.
I have studied ALL Scripture over 60 years. Its greatest gem is that Jesus Christ is our Lord and God. Those who do not know this do not have the Spirit Who was sent to reveal Him.
We are 'in Christ', the Messiah, but not a part of His Deity. You do greatly err.
We cannot say yes or no to what the Scripture does not reveal. And pondering will do no good. We do not and cannot even know fully what it means to be 'in Christ' (His risen manhood not His Godhead). We rejoice in the fact, though we do not fully understand what it means.
You speculate on things you do not know.
D
I guess you missed the point of what I posted, Tertullian was the first to introduced the word trinity, now that we know where the word was first used, then follower the word trinity, to see who else used the word trinity. Tertullian, Pagans, Christians, as the word was not used by people who believed in one God in early history.
D
And I believe in God the Father, who is the one and only God, I believe in the Savior who was sent by his God, by his Father, as I also believe that the Spirit of God the Father is Holy, which is the Holy Spirit of God the Father. Therefore there is no three persons in the Apostolic creed, there is only two not three, no trinity.
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No bronson, I am not beaming with glee. In fact I am heartbroken even to the point of tears that your lost as rain. Secondly, quoting the Bible and understanding the quotes are two different things. You said this to me: You might like to read Archie in Greek Philosophy, it too toys with the theoretical sense of the word. Look also at the Catholic Encyclopedia and the complications of introducing the trinity, which makes Jesus equal to God.
Is Jesus his own father, is the father his own father and the two of them the father of the Holy Spirit, or is the Holy Spirit the father of both of the other two fathers....I wont go and farther. or is the further father."
I addressed what you said and now your making excuses by making me the subject of your Biblical ineptness instead of actually dealing with the text. This does not surprise me and it's so obvious that your the one speaking from the rear. Oh yea, you also said that your only the messenger? What does that mean, do you or don't you believe the message your delivering?
Finally, I am "NOT" interested in any kind of "victory." I'm here to engage theological innovators like yourself and by challenging your claims (and these are your claims messenger) and to expose the errors of your assumptions, inferences and conclusions for any interested parties to see for themselves. And I have to say your doing a good job in assisting me, so thank you!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Is Jesus his own father, is the father his own father and the two of them the father of the Holy Spirit, or is the Holy Spirit the father of both of the other two fathers....I wont go and farther. or is the further father."
I addressed what you said and now your making excuses by making me the subject of your Biblical ineptness instead of actually dealing with the text. This does not surprise me and it's so obvious that your the one speaking from the rear.
Oh yea, you also said that your only the messenger? What does that mean, do you or don't you believe the message your delivering? Finally, I am "NOT" interested in any kind of "victory." I'm here to engage theological innovators like yourself and by challenging your claims (and these are your claims messenger
) and to expose the errors of your assumptions, inferences and conclusions for any interested parties to see for themselves. And I have to say your doing a good job in assisting me, so thank you! IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The Catholic written history speaks of the difficulty of the Bishops in accepting the trinity. They had a duality concept but Constantine insisted on a third entity to coincide with the three trinity systems of pagan Roman beliefs. As I have previously said, Constantine was the pagan Emperor of Rome, he considered that this new "Christian" religion was having some influence on the population and it was a good political move to inculcate pagan influences into this new religion so that his own people could accept the transition with ease.
We know that the pagan influence was quickly accepted and many 'gods' were created in the way of saints for the followers to pray to, contrary to the Biblical instruction to pray only to God, through his only begotten son,
Babylon was the pagan capitol of the world at that time in history, and a Babylonian was called a Papist, The Roman Church organization of today is known as the papacy....I leave it to you.
I believe that this subject will not be resolved by human intelligence, it will be resolved in time, as will all the confusing and conflicting concepts of man's connection with God.
I wish to move on in the debate and now speak about the subject of the "Immortal Soul".
Oh please bronson, quit making excuses all the time. This all started when you quoted Revelation 3:14 which in your mind and the reason you quoted the verse was to prove that Jesus Christ was a created being. I then proved to you from the Greek that the word "beginning" is "arch" and it means just as I said that instead of Jesus being created as you think He is actually the creator of everything. This is backed up by John 1:3, Colossians 1:15,16 and other verses.
Secondly, I'm not interested in the Trinity even though I am a Trinitarian and have been for 55 years now so I do know a little bit of what I'm talking about. Thirdly, the issue at hand is not the Trinity but who is Jesus Christ? If He is "a god" well is a true god or a false god? And I'm not moving unto another subject until this one is settled which I doubt that it will be because your really not interested in facts.
There is no confusion regarding Revelation 3:14 at least not on my part. What do you think the word "beginning" means at Revelation 21:6? "And He said to me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega the "beginning/arche" and the end." Or how about Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus Christ is identified as the Father of Eternity which means he is the "orgin" of eternity.
Years ago I use to have a ministry to the JW's and in fact I have an extensive library of JW primary sources of books pamphlets, some 1898 Watchtower magazines and even 78 records from the 1940's. Brooklyn would be proud of me if I was a JW. I am not playing games around here and my main goal is to get you to tell me who is Jesus Christ. You tell me who He is and I'll tell you what you believe. Since I already know you deny His deity or that He is God Almighty than that is what needs to be dealt with. Jesus ask His disciples at Matthew 16:13-17, "Who do men say that I am?"
And btw, I just stated that Jesus Christ is God Almighty, if you don't believe me then read Revelation 1:8 and you tell me what it means? Prove me wrong bronson by giving me your evidence that I'm wrong? You got these: http://i.imgur.com/NskIMWs.jpg Or how about these? http://i.imgur.com/AyANtev.jpg
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Secondly, I'm not interested in the Trinity even though I am a Trinitarian and have been for 55 years now so I do know a little bit of what I'm talking about. Thirdly, the issue at hand is not the Trinity but who is Jesus Christ? If He is "a god" well is a true god or a false god? And I'm not moving unto another subject until this one is settled which I doubt that it will be because your really not interested in facts.
There is no confusion regarding Revelation 3:14 at least not on my part. What do you think the word "beginning" means at Revelation 21:6? "And He said to me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega the "beginning/arche" and the end." Or how about Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus Christ is identified as the Father of Eternity which means he is the "orgin" of eternity.
Years ago I use to have a ministry to the JW's and in fact I have an extensive library of JW primary sources of books pamphlets, some 1898 Watchtower magazines and even 78 records from the 1940's. Brooklyn would be proud of me if I was a JW. I am not playing games around here and my main goal is to get you to tell me who is Jesus Christ. You tell me who He is and I'll tell you what you believe. Since I already know you deny His deity or that He is God Almighty than that is what needs to be dealt with. Jesus ask His disciples at Matthew 16:13-17, "Who do men say that I am?"
And btw, I just stated that Jesus Christ is God Almighty, if you don't believe me then read Revelation 1:8 and you tell me what it means? Prove me wrong bronson by giving me your evidence that I'm wrong?
You got these: http://i.imgur.com/NskIMWs.jpg Or how about these? http://i.imgur.com/AyANtev.jpgIN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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valiant: well I presume you are not going to stay in your present body in eternity. It will be a glorious one as a bright light in the universe don't you think. Well I'm counting on it. And it will shine because of God power/spirit via our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now if God is and always was our God which he was and is, and the source of all power and creation, our Lord Jesus Christ is a deity because of God our Father as well, in heaven. Then what are we going to be as a believer, mortal. I think not. We will become, yes you can say it, immortal - as a deity, although not because of ourselves (that is a very important distinction). Our lights can go out at any moment if God desires it, although it will not happen. God is pleased that we shall become this, that's the whole point of God's salvation and restoration plan.
Anyway, I wish all the best and bless you and your family (used to live in Nottingham and originally from Leicester)
In Christ, Always because he will make me shine brightly because of God Almighty.
Now if God is and always was our God which he was and is, and the source of all power and creation, our Lord Jesus Christ is a deity because of God our Father as well, in heaven. Then what are we going to be as a believer, mortal. I think not. We will become, yes you can say it, immortal - as a deity, although not because of ourselves (that is a very important distinction). Our lights can go out at any moment if God desires it, although it will not happen. God is pleased that we shall become this, that's the whole point of God's salvation and restoration plan.
Anyway, I wish all the best and bless you and your family (used to live in Nottingham and originally from Leicester)
In Christ, Always because he will make me shine brightly because of God Almighty.
Oh please bronson, quit making excuses all the time. This all started when you quoted Revelation 3:14 which in your mind and the reason you quoted the verse was to prove that Jesus Christ was a created being. I then proved to you from the Greek that the word "beginning" is "arch" and it means just as I said that instead of Jesus being created as you think He is actually the creator of everything. This is backed up by John 1:3, Colossians 1:15,16 and other verses.
Secondly, I'm not interested in the Trinity even though I am a Trinitarian and have been for 55 years now so I do know a little bit of what I'm talking about. Thirdly, the issue at hand is not the Trinity but who is Jesus Christ? If He is "a god" well is a true god or a false god? And I'm not moving unto another subject until this one is settled which I doubt that it will be because your really not interested in facts.
There is no confusion regarding Revelation 3:14 at least not on my part. What do you think the word "beginning" means at Revelation 21:6? "And He said to me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega the "beginning/arche" and the end." Or how about Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus Christ is identified as the Father of Eternity which means he is the "orgin" of eternity.
Years ago I use to have a ministry to the JW's and in fact I have an extensive library of JW primary sources of books pamphlets, some 1898 Watchtower magazines and even 78 records from the 1940's. Brooklyn would be proud of me if I was a JW. I am not playing games around here and my main goal is to get you to tell me who is Jesus Christ. You tell me who He is and I'll tell you what you believe. Since I already know you deny His deity or that He is God Almighty than that is what needs to be dealt with. Jesus ask His disciples at Matthew 16:13-17, "Who do men say that I am?"
And btw, I just stated that Jesus Christ is God Almighty, if you don't believe me then read Revelation 1:8 and you tell me what it means? Prove me wrong bronson by giving me your evidence that I'm wrong? You got these: http://i.imgur.com/NskIMWs.jpg Or how about these? http://i.imgur.com/AyANtev.jpg
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Secondly, I'm not interested in the Trinity even though I am a Trinitarian and have been for 55 years now so I do know a little bit of what I'm talking about. Thirdly, the issue at hand is not the Trinity but who is Jesus Christ? If He is "a god" well is a true god or a false god? And I'm not moving unto another subject until this one is settled which I doubt that it will be because your really not interested in facts.
There is no confusion regarding Revelation 3:14 at least not on my part. What do you think the word "beginning" means at Revelation 21:6? "And He said to me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega the "beginning/arche" and the end." Or how about Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus Christ is identified as the Father of Eternity which means he is the "orgin" of eternity.
Years ago I use to have a ministry to the JW's and in fact I have an extensive library of JW primary sources of books pamphlets, some 1898 Watchtower magazines and even 78 records from the 1940's. Brooklyn would be proud of me if I was a JW. I am not playing games around here and my main goal is to get you to tell me who is Jesus Christ. You tell me who He is and I'll tell you what you believe. Since I already know you deny His deity or that He is God Almighty than that is what needs to be dealt with. Jesus ask His disciples at Matthew 16:13-17, "Who do men say that I am?"
And btw, I just stated that Jesus Christ is God Almighty, if you don't believe me then read Revelation 1:8 and you tell me what it means? Prove me wrong bronson by giving me your evidence that I'm wrong?
You got these: http://i.imgur.com/NskIMWs.jpg Or how about these? http://i.imgur.com/AyANtev.jpgIN GOD THE SON,
bluto
What do you mean, you used to have a ministry to the JWs?
To clear this up so I can go on to others misnomers, let me ask you: Do you believe that Almighty God died or was it Jesus? When It is said that "God so loved the world He gave his only begotten son...." That God Almighty, the creator of all things, was only pretending and was intending to commit suicide Himself, which is not possible as God is immortal and has always has been, on the other hand Jesus did not attain immortality until he rose for the earth after his execution. Had he been immortal before hand he would not have been able to face death.
Look, I believe that Almighty God is full of love and justice, He is logical, a trait he gave humans and with the ability to reason and the need for religious content, we a far from the animals of the world. I have already explained from historic information, how the trinity came about and it was not about in the apostolic times. Constantine demanded that it be included in the Roman Church dogma, not because her was a Christian but because he wanted to settle the unrest in the beginning of the church.
IMO, the trinity denigrates the Creator by lowering His status to one third of the power of the deity. Satan, of course, would like to lower it more so.
There is one God (big G) and there is one Christ. God has the power of the Holy Spirit and has bestowed this Holy Spirit on Jesus who is now the King of the Heavenly Kingdom and is ruling at this very time. This Holy Spirit or God's Active Force has been bestowed on others, Pentecost for example but it did not make any of those faithful Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit itself, or in now way did it make them a part of some trinity theory.
You quote a long time in years that you have believed what you do, it is so cemented in your brain that nothing will shift it. Good for you, nothing will shift my belief and I was only wanting to discuss the trinity theory and we find, as usual, as much for as is against. Nothing new there!!!!
Good for you....Drink up and be merry for tomorrow never comes.
Those Scriptures tell it all, I would like to add the translation of John 1:1-5 and the idea that Jesus is a created being or a god, and is not part of the eternal Godhead or of the divine nature, that created all things. Even the JW's New World Translation, show Jesus to be the creator of all things or all of creation. A close reading of the NWT, reading its context even shows Jesus to be the creator of all creation.
If you read the creation accounts together you have the three persons of the triune Godhead. Genesis 1:1-2 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
John 1:1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.[SUB]5 [/SUB]The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
We see God, the Word, and the Spirit, the three persons of the triune Godhead. Look at how the JW's translate John 1:1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.2 This one was in the beginning with God.3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men.5 And the light is shining in the darkness, but the darkness has not overpowered it."
Notice verse two, the ESV "He was in the beginning with God" NWT "This one was in the beginning with God" Verse two is an establishment of verse one, it establishes that the Word, was with God in the beginning or before creation, the reason "Word" is capitalized is because it establishes that the Word and God of the same nature. There is no reason, in the structure of the verse to introduce another being. Verses 1-5 are interpreted by Jesus in chapter 17:3-5 "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
Here in 1:1-5 Jesus or the Word, was in the beginning or "before the world existed" or before creation, with the Father and they shared Glory. The Lord shares His glory with no one Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols." NWT makes it clear "I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images." So Jehovah or the Father shares or gives His glory to no one, yet Jesus shared that glory with Jehovah or the Father. Again no room for Jesus being none other than the God that created all of the creation as stated in 1:3, even the NWT translates it with the same message, "and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." This further leaves no room for the translation of "a god" or a created being, since "apart from him not even one thing came into existence" If Jesus is a god or a created being, how does this verse stand, how can a created being, create himself? It can't. Look at what it says, "not even one thing" there is only one being that can create everything, that is the eternal God of the universe, none other.
Here's my question to those that believe that Jesus is another god, other than the God of created all things because there are no other things that were created. It does not fit the creation account, but bigger than that, why would the Lord of all creation knowing He had created another god and make the very first commandment, "have no other gods before Him" knowing that people would have to come to Jesus or that other god to know Him the Father? That is as evil as it gives, it is a literal damned if you don't, damned if you do, literally damned to hell for eternity. That is an evil being and could by no means have love in its nature or am I wrong here?
Think about some of the things that the God of all of the creation has said Isaiah 43:11 "I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior." Then we have John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So who is the evil one, the Lord that gave the commandments or Jesus that is saying we need gto break the firat commandment to know the Lord. Who is the evil one?
Now, three times the Bible tells us "Salvation belongs to the Lord; your blessing be on your people!" in Psalm 3:8, Jonah 2:9 and Revelation 7:10, if salvation belongs to Him, it would be a good idea to know all about His nature.
Knowing God's nature is important to know our salvation, Hebrews 9:13-14 is a very important portion of Scriptures that explains our eternal salvation. "For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."
Christ's sacrifice had to be offered to someone to forgive our sins and that was the Father and there had to be someone to make that offering, that is the Holy Spirit and the offering had to be someone or something and the sacrifice is/was Christ Himself. When it was the "blood of bulls and goats" the sacrifice was offered by the High Priest to God, when the sacrifice had eternal ramification it was all done by, to and for. Christ offered Himself to the Father, it was done through the Holy Spirit, for us to have a good conscience toward the Father so that we could present ourselves to Him.
These are all things that are important to our salvation, there are Scriptures that show how the Trinity is involved in our salvation. I Corinthians 1:21-22 "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."
II Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
I hope this adds to the discussion.
If you read the creation accounts together you have the three persons of the triune Godhead. Genesis 1:1-2 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
John 1:1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.[SUB]5 [/SUB]The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
We see God, the Word, and the Spirit, the three persons of the triune Godhead. Look at how the JW's translate John 1:1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.2 This one was in the beginning with God.3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men.5 And the light is shining in the darkness, but the darkness has not overpowered it."
Notice verse two, the ESV "He was in the beginning with God" NWT "This one was in the beginning with God" Verse two is an establishment of verse one, it establishes that the Word, was with God in the beginning or before creation, the reason "Word" is capitalized is because it establishes that the Word and God of the same nature. There is no reason, in the structure of the verse to introduce another being. Verses 1-5 are interpreted by Jesus in chapter 17:3-5 "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
Here in 1:1-5 Jesus or the Word, was in the beginning or "before the world existed" or before creation, with the Father and they shared Glory. The Lord shares His glory with no one Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols." NWT makes it clear "I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images." So Jehovah or the Father shares or gives His glory to no one, yet Jesus shared that glory with Jehovah or the Father. Again no room for Jesus being none other than the God that created all of the creation as stated in 1:3, even the NWT translates it with the same message, "and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." This further leaves no room for the translation of "a god" or a created being, since "apart from him not even one thing came into existence" If Jesus is a god or a created being, how does this verse stand, how can a created being, create himself? It can't. Look at what it says, "not even one thing" there is only one being that can create everything, that is the eternal God of the universe, none other.
Here's my question to those that believe that Jesus is another god, other than the God of created all things because there are no other things that were created. It does not fit the creation account, but bigger than that, why would the Lord of all creation knowing He had created another god and make the very first commandment, "have no other gods before Him" knowing that people would have to come to Jesus or that other god to know Him the Father? That is as evil as it gives, it is a literal damned if you don't, damned if you do, literally damned to hell for eternity. That is an evil being and could by no means have love in its nature or am I wrong here?
Think about some of the things that the God of all of the creation has said Isaiah 43:11 "I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior." Then we have John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So who is the evil one, the Lord that gave the commandments or Jesus that is saying we need gto break the firat commandment to know the Lord. Who is the evil one?
Now, three times the Bible tells us "Salvation belongs to the Lord; your blessing be on your people!" in Psalm 3:8, Jonah 2:9 and Revelation 7:10, if salvation belongs to Him, it would be a good idea to know all about His nature.
Knowing God's nature is important to know our salvation, Hebrews 9:13-14 is a very important portion of Scriptures that explains our eternal salvation. "For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."
Christ's sacrifice had to be offered to someone to forgive our sins and that was the Father and there had to be someone to make that offering, that is the Holy Spirit and the offering had to be someone or something and the sacrifice is/was Christ Himself. When it was the "blood of bulls and goats" the sacrifice was offered by the High Priest to God, when the sacrifice had eternal ramification it was all done by, to and for. Christ offered Himself to the Father, it was done through the Holy Spirit, for us to have a good conscience toward the Father so that we could present ourselves to Him.
These are all things that are important to our salvation, there are Scriptures that show how the Trinity is involved in our salvation. I Corinthians 1:21-22 "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."
II Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
I hope this adds to the discussion.
Bronson: Praise God and right on brother! Keep speaking the truth as the truth never is in need of any defens(c)e or confusing thoughts.
As Paul and other saints since Christ's resurrection would say, "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Corith 1:2) NIV
There is but one GOD with power from his own spirit, as he is spirit (as grace for/to us) that he shares to his creation, and us for our salvation and eternal life; and one son, our Lord Jesus Christ! Let it be so.. In Christ, Always
As Paul and other saints since Christ's resurrection would say, "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Corith 1:2) NIV
There is but one GOD with power from his own spirit, as he is spirit (as grace for/to us) that he shares to his creation, and us for our salvation and eternal life; and one son, our Lord Jesus Christ! Let it be so.. In Christ, Always
"Creed one" as you call it, did not fall from heaven. It was produced by the church.
And church explained it more specifically later, because of the heretics coming and sayng Jesus is not God.
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Also, Paul wrote this long before any official creed:
"...Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
(Phil 2:5-6)
"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Col 2:9)
And church explained it more specifically later, because of the heretics coming and sayng Jesus is not God.
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Also, Paul wrote this long before any official creed:
"...Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
(Phil 2:5-6)
"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Col 2:9)