The Trinity

[Anonimous]

If you believe that, how are you monotheist? You cannot just state those verses and say 'I see three God's so far!' when you have no answer or response to those verses in the first place. I have a simple answer to these verses, but let me use a reference you haven't quoted yet. In the inspired scriptures, Isaiah had a vision to which he was ushered into the throne room of God and what did Isaiah say he saw? Many glorious things! Seraphim, the temple with smoke, and the Lord HOLY, HOLY, HOLY! Wasn't this God whom he saw? Yes! Absolutely, but what does the other part of inspired scripture that gives an explanation of this passage say?



Who is the him[/FONT][/COLOR] that John proclaims Isaiah sees? The context states it is Jesus. As a Trinitarian, I can state that Isaiah saw God AND saw Jesus. How would you understand this passage in John when John himself says that Isaiah saw Jesus, but Isaiah said he saw God?

The same can be said with these other passages. Jesus is in reference with these passages. Psalm 110:1 is found in Mark 12:35-36

Jesus asks them a question on who the Christ is and simply asks how they can understand that the Christ is David's son when David calls him Lord? The Lord is whom in this passage?

And since you brought it up, how do you understand the passage

I have never understood that passage. I can't think dimensionally like that. I'd like to but even the explanations I have seen are over my head.

 

[cfultz3]

But Mr. Mark, you assume what I believe. I never once denied that one only has to believe that Jesus is the Son of God for salvation. If I said it once or a thousand times, it would not have matter because you would just say that I never did answer it.

Not every Brother and Sister is your enemy and out to get you. But, may I just suggest that you hear people and not go by what you think they are saying.

My only concern is where you said that Jesus is the Mighty God of the New Testament, but yet say that He is not God and the usage of that doctrinated version of scripture.

We can act like adults here and discuss the matter or we can continue acting like children.

 

[mark54]

Jesus Christ = Holy Spirit/soul/earthen vessel combo without measure (God). The same applies to The Captain of The Host of the Lord, and the priest after the order of Melchisidec, and both of those we see before Jesus. Just because we see the Captain of the Host of the Lord and the priest after the order of Melchisidec first, it doesn't mean that's what we're supposed to call the Captain and Priest. His name is called the Word of God, Jesus Christ of Nazareth from Heaven.

Good grief, if I read you right, you don't know what name we should believe jesus to be in order to inherit eternal life. It seems to me you are not confident enough to give a name. I don't know what you would tell a person enquiring about the faith. There must be A NAME SINGULAR that people can believe Christ to be to be saved, as you seem unsure of what that name is, I will move on, thanks for the chat, bye

 

[mark54]

But Mr. Mark, you assume what I believe. I never once denied that one only has to believe that Jesus is the Son of God for salvation. If I said it once or a thousand times, it would not have matter because you would just say that I never did answer it.

Not every Brother and Sister is your enemy and out to get you. But, may I just suggest that you hear people and not go by what you think they are saying.

My only concern is where you said that Jesus is the Mighty God of the New Testament, but yet say that He is not God and the usage of that doctrinated version of scripture.[/QUOTE]

I answered that yesterday, and i thought you said you understood my reply. i cannot write it all out again Cfultz. I suggest you trawl through yesterdays posts. I did respond to your specific emboldened question then, I know I did

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Good grief, if I read you right, you don't know what name we should believe jesus to be in order to inherit eternal life. It seems to me you are not confident enough to give a name. I don't know what you would tell a person enquiring about the faith. There must be A NAME SINGULAR that people can believe Christ to be to be saved, as you seem unsure of what that name is, I will move on, thanks for the chat, bye

You really didn't understand my answer? Perhaps I was unclear, but I really didn't think I was.

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[cfultz3]

But Mr. Mark, you assume what I believe. I never once denied that one only has to believe that Jesus is the Son of God for salvation. If I said it once or a thousand times, it would not have matter because you would just say that I never did answer it.

Not every Brother and Sister is your enemy and out to get you. But, may I just suggest that you hear people and not go by what you think they are saying.

My only concern is where you said that Jesus is the Mighty God of the New Testament, but yet say that He is not God and the usage of that doctrinated version of scripture.[/QUOTE]

I answered that yesterday, and i thought you said you understood my reply. i cannot write it all out again Cfultz. I suggest you trawl through yesterdays posts. I did respond to your specific emboldened question then, I know I did

I am sorry, but I do not remember saying that. But for the sake of argument, let us say I did.
May we start over.

What about the first part of the post where I said you assume what I believe since I never once denied that one only has to believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[mark54]

You really didn't understand my answer? Perhaps I was unclear, but I really didn't think I was.

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

OK
I think i understand, I have a lot of posts to get thruogh so read quickly, or others will say i am ignoring their questiuons

So if someone came up to you in the street and wanted to know about jesus and accept him into their life as lORD AND saviour, you would not tell them they must believe He is God, or the Son of God, you would simply tell them they must believe in a person called Jesus of nazaraeth, have I got that right?
If a person just believes in Jesus of Nazareth they are saved?

Only I am sure you would agree with me, there must be ONE SINGLE NAME that is the bottom line as to who Jesus must be believed to be to inherit eternal life
So it would not matter if a person believed Jesus was son of God, God Himself or just a prophet, as long as they believed in the name Jesus of Nazereth that is enough

 

[Berean]

Your theological extrapolations mean nothing to me, here is plain scripture

Now this is eternal life, that they may know you,(the Father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3
That is plain scripture, i do not want theological extrapolations, please give me very plain scripture, as I have you to prove your point

And
As you believe Christ is God because he could forgive sins, bearing in mind John 20:23 how many people do you believe are God?

I believe there is only 1 true God, that's what I hold to tooth and nail. However, I believe that God has 3 personages. When I state that I don't believe they are human persons, but persons refer to distinct aspects to who they are. They all have their own 'job descriptions' so to speak. To clarify that, I don't believe that God the father died on the cross, but the son and not the spirit as well.

But the following verses state,

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:5

Jesus says himself he had (already had, already possessed, did not receive) the same glory with the father. They had the exact same glory!

Your theological extrapolations mean nothing to me, here is plain scripture

You just told someone you didn't want scripture, but a simple response. Yet, here you say you only want the plain scripture. Well, what is it??? The reason why I asked questions based on the scripture is because you have to be able have the proper understanding of those scriptures. Can you please point out my theological extrapolations? You have not even begun to respond to my questions and I have taken time to respond to yours. I don't believe Christ is God based on Mark 2 alone. What about the verses like

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM. John 8:58

I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God. John 10:30-33

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9

But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

You say you want simple scripture, but you will not accept simple exchange on this topic. I ask you questions that you automatically dismiss and say I have extrapolations, but when asked questions you say all you want is simple scripture. You have a blatant double standard that has been pointed out, not only by myself, but others as well. The scriptures command us to properly handle the words of truth (2 Timothy 2:15) and also to follow the inspired words of the apostle Peter which states,

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. 2 Peter 3:14-18

Condemnation is not mine, but the Lord's. I ask again, please, give me an understanding of all the verses I have stated. Its a simple easy request that you yourself have asked for. And might I point out

I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. Isaiah 43:11

Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me.

How is Jesus savior at all???

 

[mark54]

I believe there is only 1 true God, that's what I hold to tooth and nail. However, I believe that God has 3 personages. QUOTE]

I am afraid i have too many posts of others to get through at the moment to spend a great deal of time on every post to me, especially when they seem to make no sense

YOU say you believe in one true God
Christ said the one true God was the Father, yet you say he is three persons, i DON'T understand.
There cannot be three Fathers
Chrtist did not say the Spirit and son were true God's too, only the Father, sorry I geniuinely do not understand


BTW
Did you answer my question, bearing in mind you believe Christ is god because he forgave sins, do you believe there are 13 Gods bearing in mind
John 20:23

 

[Jon4TheCross]

OK
I think i understand, I have a lot of posts to get thruogh so read quickly, or others will say i am ignoring their questiuons

So if someone came up to you in the street and wanted to know about jesus and accept him into their life as lORD AND saviour, you would not tell them they must believe He is God, or the Son of God, you would simply tell them they must believe in a person called Jesus of nazaraeth, have I got that right?
If a person just believes in Jesus of Nazareth they are saved?

Only I am sure you would agree with me, there must be ONE SINGLE NAME that is the bottom line as to who Jesus must be believed to be to inherit eternal life
So it would not matter if a person believed Jesus was son of God, God Himself or just a prophet, as long as they believed in the name Jesus of Nazereth that is enough

Actually when I walk down the street I tell people......"I'm from Heaven, do you have any questions about Heaven?" That's the version of....repent (turn this way), the kingdom of heaven is at hand. When people start asking questions I answer them. Eventually the remedy for our condition comes up, and that's when I explain that God died for us, and His name is Jesus Christ of Nazareth from Heaven, the Holy Spirit/Soul/Earthen Vessel combo without measure and with no beginning. I tell them that we all have a beginning, but God does not, and Jesus does not because Jesus is God, approachable even for us.

 

[mark54]

I believe there is only 1 true God, that's what I hold to tooth and nail. However, I believe that God has 3 personages. When I state that I don't believe they are human persons, but persons refer to distinct aspects to who they are. They all have their own 'job descriptions' so to speak. To clarify that, I don't believe that God the father died on the cross, but the son and not the spirit as well.

But the following verses state,



Jesus says himself he had (already had, already possessed, did not receive) the same glory with the father. They had the exact same glory!



You just told someone you didn't want scripture, but a simple response. Yet, here you say you only want the plain scripture. Well, what is it??? The reason why I asked questions based on the scripture is because you have to be able have the proper understanding of those scriptures. Can you please point out my theological extrapolations? You have not even begun to respond to my questions and I have taken time to respond to yours. I don't believe Christ is God based on Mark 2 alone. What about the verses like











You say you want simple scripture, but you will not accept simple exchange on this topic. I ask you questions that you automatically dismiss and say I have extrapolations, but when asked questions you say all you want is simple scripture. You have a blatant double standard that has been pointed out, not only by myself, but others as well. The scriptures command us to properly handle the words of truth (2 Timothy 2:15) and also to follow the inspired words of the apostle Peter which states,


Condemnation is not mine, but the Lord's. I ask again, please, give me an understanding of all the verses I have stated. Its a simple easy request that you yourself have asked for. And might I point out





How is Jesus savior at all???

Just had another quick glance, I gave my thoughts on John1:1 yesterday if you would like to look at yesterdays posts

 

[mark54]

Actually when I walk down the street I tell people......"I'm from Heaven, do you have any questions about Heaven?" That's the version of....repent (turn this way), the kingdom of heaven is at hand. When people start asking questions I answer them. Eventually the remedy for our condition comes up, and that's when I explain that God died for us, and His name is Jesus Christ of Nazareth from Heaven, the Holy Spirit/Soul/Earthen Vessel combo without measure and with no beginning. I tell them that we all have a beginning, but God does not, and Jesus does not because Jesus is God, approachable even for us.

PLEASE MAKE YOURSELF CLEAR
Must a person ULTIMATLEY believe in the name Jesus is God
Jesus is Son of God
Or simply Jesus of nazareth to be saved

What is the problem here, no one else has EVER had a problem giving me one name that must be believed in. I do not wish to sound harsh, but if you cannot, you seem to me to be on very shaky ground with little confidence to give a specific name/title Christ be believed to be to inherit eternal life

I repeat, I HAVE never come accross anyone before who cannot forthrightly give me ONE NAME

what name is the bottom line here

 

[Berean]

I believe there is only 1 true God, that's what I hold to tooth and nail. However, I believe that God has 3 personages. QUOTE]

I am afraid i have too many posts of others to get through at the moment to spend a great deal of time on every post to me, especially when they seem to make no sense

YOU say you believe in one true God
Christ said the one true God was the Father, yet you say he is three persons, i DON'T understand.
There cannot be three Fathers
Chrtist did not say the Spirit and son were true God's too, only the Father, sorry I geniuinely do not understand


BTW
Did you answer my question, bearing in mind you believe Christ is god because he forgave sins, do you believe there are 13 Gods bearing in mind
John 20:23

I have a simple small problem with this because I asked for an Exegesis of this passage. The exact forgiveness given to Christ MADE HIM EQUAL TO GOD. Otherwise he wouldn't have been accused of blasphemy. What did they say in that passage? "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone? (v 7) This passage you complete skipped and took no heed of. I once again ask, please give an exegesis of this text.


He called his twelve disciples to him and g



ave them authority to drive out evil[SUP][a][/SUP] spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
Matt10:1

As the Father gave the Son authority, so the Son gave the disciples authority.




I fail to see how this relates to the passage at all. Yes, these passages are talking about authority, but what authority is being given? The passage I directly quoted dealt with God forgiving sins, not any plain authority. Why were they reasoning in their hearts that he was blaspheming by performing an action only God can do! This specific authority was to do this exact thing. So, according to your argument of authority, can any man forgive sin?


But directly in relation to the point of your post:




Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.[SUP]23 [/SUP]If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
John 20:22&23


Where in this passage is the example of the object forgiveness of a persons sin? Because these are complete different examples of forgiveness. First, the passage in Mark 2 dealt with a forgiveness on the level of divinity, (v. 7) however, this forgiveness (John 20:22 and 23) is talking about forgiveness of one person to another in a subjective sense. If its not, can you simply point out how this is a divine forgiveness as is found in Mark 2?

I answered the question here and in where you quoted me in that last response. I challenged you making the passage in John 20:23-24 equal in understanding to that of Mark 2:5-11. Where in the context state that these are synonymous forms of forgiveness? If this was some simple for of Christ forgiving sins, why did the leaders state it was blasphemy??? That makes no sense and does not follow the flow of the passage.

If you don't believe Jesus is God, how can Jesus be a savoir at all according to those passages in Hosea and Isaiah???

 

[mark54]

I answered the question here and in where you quoted me in that last response. I challenged you making the passage in John 20:23-24 equal in understanding to that of Mark 2:5-11. Where in the context state that these are synonymous forms of forgiveness? If this was some simple for of Christ forgiving sins, why did the leaders state it was blasphemy??? That makes no sense and does not follow the flow of the passage.

If you don't believe Jesus is God, how can Jesus be a savoir at all according to those passages in Hosea and Isaiah???

Simple answer, because JESUS said ONLY THE FATHER IS THE ONE TRUE GOD. And I do not know of any Trinitarian who believes Christ is the FATHer
I could give you more scriptures but as I said, yours is not the only conversation I have going now.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

PLEASE MAKE YOURSELF CLEAR
Must a person ULTIMATLEY believe in the name Jesus is God
Jesus is Son of God
Or simply Jesus of nazareth to be saved

What is the problem here, no one else has EVER had a problem giving me one name that must be believed in. I do not wish to sound harsh, but if you cannot, you seem to me to be on very shaky ground with little confidence to give a specific name/title Christ be believed to be to inherit eternal life

I repeat, I HAVE never come accross anyone before who cannot forthrightly give me ONE NAME

what name is the bottom line here

I already told you it's Jesus Christ of Nazareth that we must trust/believe. When you use the word believe in this example, I am understanding that word to mean trust. We must trust in God, and the specific name (under heaven) is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is from Heaven.

 

[mark54]

I answered the question here and in where you quoted me in that last response. I challenged you making the passage in John 20:23-24 equal in understanding to that of Mark 2:5-11. Where in the context state that these are synonymous forms of forgiveness? If this was some simple for of Christ forgiving sins, why did the leaders state it was blasphemy??? That makes no sense and does not follow the flow of the passage.

If you don't believe Jesus is God, how can Jesus be a savoir at all according to those passages in Hosea and Isaiah???

Just had another quick look(trying to be fair)
Jesus simply told his disciples if they forgave anyones sins they were forgiven, just as Christ had authority(obviousdly from the Father) to forgive sins too
As the father gave the son authority, so the son gave the disciples authority

 

[JLHillsSr]

Hi JL
Thanks for responding. I wondered for a minute if you had a different understanding as to who the sons of God are, but I know now you haven't. BTW, if we always took literaly what the plain words state without allowing for the love, mercy and compassion of God, I don't believe anyone would make it to Heaven, I know I would not anyway
It always interests me to read peoples opinions on this subject. Can you confirm I have understood your position form what I have read of your posts

You believe the Holy Spirit is Jehovah, and the Spirit dwells in the body of Christ, but you accept the Father is supreme.

Can I ask, do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?
Or, the Spirit of God's prescence?
Or is there another term you would use?

It is plain(to me) from John ch17 that the Holy Spirit does reside in the body in Christ. Interestingly I have read posts now of four people I believe who go straight to John 17 to explain(as far as we can understand) the oneness of Father and son.
That is an encouragement to me to know I am not alone in that.

I see the Holy Spirit as key in this

Most equal Trinitarians I have spoken to will not accept the Holy Spirit actually descended on Christ in bodily form at his Baptism, as they say he was already fully God and fully man
And when you ask them how Christ spoke the word of God, they normally reply because he was God, they don't on the whole reply
'Because the Spirit was on him without measure John3:34

It is not my understanding at all that Jehovah is the Holy Spirit. Jehovah is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit is a separate entity from both the Father and Jehovah. They call themselves one because they think and act as one each with their own job.
The Father is the planner.
Jehovah is the creator.
The Holy Spirit is the teacher.
The Holy Spirit does not enter into the Body until it's burial. This is how it is resurrected.
Several times throughout Paul 's writing, he pushes the point, that we are dead in Christ. This means that we are resurrected in His likeness. Not Jehovah, however. Wee are in the likeness of the humanity, who, throughout his thirty-some years it is Jehovah that controlled the situation while the humanity learned what to do and how to serve the Father.

 

[mark54]

I already told you it's Jesus Christ of Nazareth that we must trust/believe. When you use the word believe in this example, I am understanding that word to mean trust. We must trust in God, and the specific name (under heaven) is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is from Heaven.

RIGHT so the one name is Jesus of Nazareth, that is the bottom line
So it does not matter if a person believes jesus of Nazareth to be a prophet, God, or son of God, as long as they believe in the name Jesus of Nazareth they are saved

Well if that is the case, they may as well believe in a dustman called jesus of Nazareth

It's hogwash

 

[cfultz3]

RIGHT so the one name is Jesus of Nazareth, that is the bottom line
So it does not matter if a person believes jesus of Nazareth to be a prophet, God, or son of God, as long as they believe in the name Jesus of Nazareth they are saved

Well if that is the case, they may as well believe in a dustman called jesus of Nazareth

It's hogwash

So I guess there are two names now. I just say, believe in Jesus as Christ and you receive salvation.

 

[mark54]

So I guess there are two names now. I just say, believe in Jesus as Christ and you receive salvation.

So Cfultz a person does not have to believe Jesus is the son of God, or God to be saved, you would just tell someone you evangelised to they must believe that some chap called Jesus as Christ died for them on the cross. Do you not think they may be a little confused?