the two witnesses are God the Father and the Holy Spirit

[badger58]

Greetings VDP,
I agree 100% with everything you said.
I am not writer, I'm sure that I am being clumsy in getting my theory across to most,if not all. I do have 65 likes on this thread, so some of it is getting through to some. I hate lies and the father of them, so if I am in error, and i would readily conceed that that's a possibility. It's my theory. This is not something that i can prove to you or anyone else. We will find out when the two witnesses arrive. I don't believe in the rapture of the church before the tribulation period. That I hope does not disqualify me from being a follower of Jesus. I believe he is the anointed Son of God and i believe we are justified and saved by the precious life that he layed down for us at the cross. I don't know what i have posted that gave you the impression that that is what i am saying. When I have time I will distill it down and be more clear. Thank you for your input.
God bless

Most of the misunderstanding that I am hearing is because of the different views many have about Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Godhead or trinity. My theory is based on how I understand the Godhead, so if I am in error, its because of this. Do we all agree that there is a Father, a Son and aHoly Spirit. I was baptized into these three names as I'm sure most here were. We see three and yet the bible clearly teaches that:GOD IS ONE. So we need to figure out what is meant by One, but we see three names or titles. A real head scratcher unless you take in the whole council of God through the study of the holy scripture. Some say Jesus is the father in the flesh. Is that true? After all Jesus told his deciple: If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
Is it that simple or are we still scratching our head. Wait a minute, Jesus on many occasions prayed to His Father in heaven. How do we explain that? Peace

 

[badger58]

I'm Pan tribe. It will all pan out in the end. LOL.

Does it matter when the Rapture happens? Not really. What DOES matter is there will be a Rapture!

We will be caught up in the air with Jesus one day,

Theories are great if you are trying to understand what God has created. But theories have no place in Theology.

Its either a Truth or a lie. Not a theory.

You need to "flesh" out your doctrine of the two witness with Scriptures from God.

In fact i will even bet that if you studied the Scriptures with the Holy Spirit He will lead you to the Truth. Will it be what you wanted? Probable not.

Many a time i thought i was right in a doctrine of mine. But when i started listening to the Holy Spirit i found out to my dismay that i was totally wrong!

Even i make mistakes when i take my eyes off of God.

I have made many corrections the my theology in 40 years of studying His word believe me.
I have changed with how I come to understand any given topic relying only on what I find in the bible led by his spirit.
If you found, what you thought was important to your family, I think you would share it with them. That's all I'm doing. If you think I'm crazy, well, who am I? It seems to me Paul addresses this topic in 1 cor 14 peace

 

[badger58]

Oh, and I agree with your pan-trib theory,I mean theology. Sorry

 

[badger58]

Oh, and I agree with your pan-trib theory,I mean theology. Sorry

I guess eschatology is the proper word.

 

[badger58]

I have made many corrections the my theology in 40 years of studying His word believe me.
I have changed with how I come to understand any given topic relying only on what I find in the bible led by his spirit.
If you found, what you thought was important to your family, I think you would share it with them. That's all I'm doing. If you think I'm crazy, well, who am I? It seems to me Paul addresses this topic in 1 cor 14 peace

The apostle Paul admonished us to eagerly to desire the gifts of the spirit, especially the gift of prophecy. I'm doing that. If I didn't think God would supply me with answers, then I wouldn't have had a burning desire to stay in His word. Oh and I do listen to the Spirit. His word is Spirit. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. God bless

 

[prove-all]

I am not writer, I'm sure that I am being clumsy in getting my theory across to most,
if not all. I do have 65 likes on this thread, so some of it is getting through to some.
-
I hate lies and the father of them, so if I am in error,
and i would readily conceed that that's a possibility.

It's my theory.

just to point out, you only have 6 likes total to all your posts,
my guess is not one liked or agreed with your origanal theory on this thread.

-
per scripture the two witnesses cannot be God the Father
or the power of the Holy Spirit, as many others gave bible verses.

 

[badger58]

just to point out, you only have 6 likes total to all your posts,
my guess is not one liked or agreed with your origanal theory on this thread.

-
per scripture the two witnesses cannot be God the Father
or the power of the Holy Spirit, as many others gave bible verses.

Nothing new under the sun. Imagine my surprise. Someone once wrote: You will never cross the ocean until you have the courage to loose sight of the land. The amazing thing is the powerful shackles the not being able to even entertain an idea, when it is perceived to be a threat. I'm not disappointed with God, just people. I thank God for the ones who have not lost their since of adventure and imagination. I am so sorry. May God have mercy. Without vision the people parish. What a sad reality, but there is a glimmer of hope. I remember a beautiful statement Jesus made: With God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones. Our God is an awesome God, still. Shalom

 

[badger58]

just to point out, you only have 6 likes total to all your posts,
my guess is not one liked or agreed with your origanal theory on this thread.

-
per scripture the two witnesses cannot be God the Father
or the power of the Holy Spirit, as many others gave bible verses.

There are so many scriptures that lead me to stand by this thread title.
This is clearly speaking of the tribulation period when the two witnesses go to work. All it takes is a little cross reference.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.


Isa 30:27 ¶ Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:


Isa 30:28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.


Isa 30:29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

What am I missing? You believe Gods judgment is coming, you just think Jehovah is to lofty to get His hands dirty. We should see from the example that His son gave us that this is a false assumption. I am a father, and I would call through mud and glass to rescue my children. If we who are evil would do this, how much more the Father Above? Just my opinion I guess. We shall see, very soon. Peace

 

[badger58]

Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. REV 11:8

... off the top of my head ... The Holy Spirit and God cannot be "killed" ... I don't see how their bodies could lie in the street when they are spirit ... and it also says "where their Lord was crucified" Jesus is not the Lord of God and the Holy Spirit.

Read Revelation 11 ....

It was not a problem for Elohiem(the Godhead)to make a body for Jesus. I'm not suggesting something that's impossible. We already have a precedence. Doesn't that make any sense? I am mystified that I can't reason with anyone about this point. Is anything to hard for our Father? Please, throw a dog a bone

 

[abcdef]

It was not a problem for Elohiem(the Godhead)to make a body for Jesus. I'm not suggesting something that's impossible. We already have a precedence. Doesn't that make any sense? I am mystified that I can't reason with anyone about this point. Is anything to hard for our Father? Please, throw a dog a bone

Brother badger58,

We believe that these 2 witnesses are the Word of God.

But where is the Word of God in the world today?

The Bible.

We hear, read and study God's word.

We believe and obey the gospel message, (good news).

We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now the Word of God, Jesus, is in our heart and soul.

We speak of the joy that is within us,

We tell others of the happiness and forgiveness that we have found.

Now we are witnesses of the Word of God to the world.
============================================

In the same way, before the Pentecost kingdom began, Israel was the witness of the Word of God to the world.

This nation of Israel held the words of God within them (heart and mind) and without them (the written scriptures).

They WERE and STILL ARE witnesses of the Living God.
==============================================

It's important to remember that they are witnessing a "type" of gospel,

That is, they are the holding the Law and the Prophets which are prophetic of Jesus, Moses was a "type" of Christ.

If they accept Jesus as king and Messiah, then, with the Holy Spirit, there would be 3 witnesses, but they have only two.

===============================================

These 2 witnesses are the nation of Israel.

======================================

The temple was measured and destroyed in 70 ad.

Israel witnessed in mourning for Jerusalem (sackcloth) from 70 ad until 1967 when they took control of the city of Jerusalem again.

The two witnesses are "witnessing" in Jerusalem today.

They are witnessing that God's promises are true (that's why they are hated so much by the nations in that region and around the world).

==========================================

 

[badger58]

It was not a problem for Elohiem(the Godhead)to make a body for Jesus. I'm not suggesting something that's impossible. We already have a precedence. Doesn't that make any sense? I am mystified that I can't reason with anyone about this point. Is anything to hard for our Father? Please, throw a dog a bone

Lets take a step back and look at it from this perspective.
If I'm wrong, what is the worst thing that can happen? When the two witnesses arive we give them the same respect we would give to God. Is there any thing in the bible that would tell you not to do that? Not the way I read it. On the contrary, that's exactly how the prophets should have been treated, as ambassadors for the king of kings.

If the other theories about the two witnesses identity is wrong, well, lets take a look at at the fruit born. We have people that think that they are one of the two witnesses, take a look at YouTube, you will see what I mean.
This is personal with me because I came out of a church where the leader claimed to be the end time Elijah. Yes I escaped, but I have daily and friends that have fallen for this lie. I escaped because I studied and proved he was an imposter. That's why I am so hard headed about this topic. It's not just an exercise in debating. Perhaps this will give you a better understanding of where I am coming from. I escaped a false deception only by Gods grace and his word. Peace and God bless

 

[badger58]

Dear brother abcdef,
Before I respond to your post, I have to praise you for taking the time and for communicating what you believe
in a friendly and respectful manner. I wonder if you realize what a rare gift you have given me. Thank you very much.
Now, to the issue, yes absolutely we want to share the good news (gospel).
I take the bible literally when it says: Their dead bodies lay in the street, and do not allow them to be put in graves.
Gods promises are true. It was good to hear from you. God bless you and yours.

 

[abcdef]

Dear brother abcdef,
Before I respond to your post, I have to praise you for taking the time and for communicating what you believe
in a friendly and respectful manner. I wonder if you realize what a rare gift you have given me. Thank you very much.
Now, to the issue, yes absolutely we want to share the good news (gospel).
I take the bible literally when it says: Their dead bodies lay in the street, and do not allow them to be put in graves.
Gods promises are true. It was good to hear from you. God bless you and yours.

Brother badger58,

I believe that the death of the 2 witnesses is literal also.

But it is not 2 individuals, it is the nation that stands restored to Jerusalem today.

The death of the 2 witnesses is going to happen before our eyes.

They will lay in the streets for 3 1/2 days just like it says.

Iran and it's allies will celebrate and send gifts to each other, just like it says.

Then after 3 1/2 days............

 

[MikeHenderson]

Lets examine the idea of God making a body for Jesus to be one of the witnesses.

God already made a body for Jesus 2000 years ago through Mary. Are you saying Jesus will now have 2 bodies? What about the first body made? Where did it go and why does Jesus needs a new body?

What about Revelation 1:7?

Revelation 1:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Your premise that Jesus sneaks back to the world is false because when He returns every eye will see Him.

You need to do more study.

 

[badger58]

Brother badger58,

I believe that the death of the 2 witnesses is literal also.

But it is not 2 individuals, it is the nation that stands restored to Jerusalem today.

The death of the 2 witnesses is going to happen before our eyes.

They will lay in the streets for 3 1/2 days just like it says.

Iran and it's allies will celebrate and send gifts to each other, just like it says.

Then after 3 1/2 days............

I believe that anytime we we study the two witnesses of Rev 11 we have to seek out where else in the bible talks about them.
Remember they are also called the two olive trees. That means that there is more evidence to add to what we see in Rev 11,and that would take us to Zech 4. Have you ever considered that they are not receiving the oil, but are the source of the oil. The olive oil is always used in the bible as a symbol of the Holy Spirit. It seems odd that this fact is never mentioned by anyone I've ever heard speak about the two witnesses. Who could be the source of the Hoy Spirit? That's how I came up with the title to this thread.
I see no way to get around this question. I have tried and tried for over 20 years. I don't see how anyone can. I must confess that I probably read these passages a thousand times before the question poped into my head: HOW COULD THE TWO WITNESSES BE THE SOURCE OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD? that was my epiphany. Once I gave myself permission to think such a thing. That's when it started piping up everywhere, even when I wasn't looking for it. King Davids psalms are loaded with the idea, Daniel,Hab 3, Zeph 1, Isaiah 30, Ezekiel 20,21. I have hard time reading any of the prophets, without seeing this. Funny I prayed for understanding, but after I received it. I prayed that God would take it away. I know that when others read this, I will be called a wack-o or worse, a false prophet. To be clear, THIS IS JUST WHAT I HAVE FOUND IN MY PERSONAL BIBLE STUDY. I know why no one wants to believe this because of what it could mean. What could be more abominable than this. The abomination that causes desolation. I don't want to believe it, but I trust God. Batery is dying.....

 

[badger58]

Lets examine the idea of God making a body for Jesus to be one of the witnesses.

God already made a body for Jesus 2000 years ago through Mary. Are you saying Jesus will now have 2 bodies? What about the first body made? Where did it go and why does Jesus needs a new body?

What about Revelation 1:7?

Revelation 1:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Your premise that Jesus sneaks back to the world is false because when He returns every eye will see Him.

You need to do more study.

Doesn't the tile make it clear who I think the two witnesses are? Not Jesus the Father and the Hoy Spirit. Got to be short my battery is about dead. Sorry

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello MkeHenderson,

The on-going error is that many have equated the appearing of the Lord to gather the church with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, which are two separate events. The scripture that you quoted above from Rev.1:7 is synonymous with Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.19-11-15. These are in reference to the Lord's physical and visual return to the earth to end the age with the church following him out of heaven riding on those white horses. Where 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-52 are referring to the Lord's appearing to resurrect the dead and change and catch up the living believers in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, where he will then take the entire group back to the Father's house to those rooms that he left to prepare for us.

HIs appearing to remove the church will take place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, which will then be followed by the rest of the seals, followed by the seven trumpet judgments, with the seven bowl judgments completing God's wrath. The church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened and that because scripture makes it clear that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that because the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins was already satisfied by Jesus (I Thes 1:10). To put the church through God's wrath would be a disgrace to Jesus, because he already suffered God's wrath on our behalf.

People who think that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath have not understood the severity and magnitude of his coming wrath. By way of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, God is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government in preparation for his millennial kingdom. To give you an idea of the severity of this time period, there are only two places in Revelation where the percentages of the fatalities are listed, one being at the 4th seal and the other at the 6th trumpet. The two of them combined and based on the current population of 7 billion, the fatalities will be approximately 4.5 billion people within that seven year period and that's not including the 1st, 2nd or 3rd trumpets nor the bowl judgments, as well as all of the fatalities that will result from the beast. This gives a better understanding of why Jesus said "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

So to recap, the gathering of the church prior to God's wrath is a separate event from when the Lord visually returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

 

[miknik5]

Lets take a step back and look at it from this perspective.
If I'm wrong, what is the worst thing that can happen? When the two witnesses arive we give them the same respect we would give to God. Is there any thing in the bible that would tell you not to do that? Not the way I read it. On the contrary, that's exactly how the prophets should have been treated, as ambassadors for the king of kings.

If the other theories about the two witnesses identity is wrong, well, lets take a look at at the fruit born. We have people that think that they are one of the two witnesses, take a look at YouTube, you will see what I mean.
This is personal with me because I came out of a church where the leader claimed to be the end time Elijah. Yes I escaped, but I have daily and friends that have fallen for this lie. I escaped because I studied and proved he was an imposter. That's why I am so hard headed about this topic. It's not just an exercise in debating. Perhaps this will give you a better understanding of where I am coming from. I escaped a false deception only by Gods grace and his word. Peace and God bless

They are the two men who never physically died in this world but were taken up to GOD.
No man can precede CHRIST.
HE is the first before all creation
And these two heavenly men will give their testimony and than (finally) physically die.
For all men will die once...but not all will suffer the second death.

You will note that even after the GOSPEL has been preached by men, and then preached by heavenly witnesses, it will finally and lastly be preached by heavenly beings (angels) who will have the Lasting Gospel...and then the end will come...

GOD still holds out HIS STRONG ARM of SALVATION through men, through these two heavenly men and then finally through HIS ANGELS...that some might come to the Knowledge of the TRUTH of HIS SON and be saved.

The two witnesses are not GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT.
For during this time of evil, HE who holds all things back is taken out of the way for a time...
When the HEDGE was removed...then evil will run rampant, and during that time the man of wickedness will have his full reign...

 

[badger58]

The tribulation period will be as you say absolutely horrifying. Your calculations about the death toll rate are most likely on spot, as well. You are also 100% correct when you state that the redeemed are not appointed to wrath, so there is no way we will be is homogeneous state with the nations. Taking us to heaven be fore this terrible calamity occurs is one way to mae sense of what will happen, but there is also ample evidence in scripture to suggest an alternate way for this to play out.

It is written in a certain place come out of her my people, lest ye partake in her sins.
It also speaks of a second, greater exodus, I think its in Jeremiah. So we need to consider and weigh, and richly devide the word of truth. God may sequester His people at Mt Zion. I offer this one passage, I'm confident that a bible study on the topic would be well worth while.

Isa 35:1 ¶ The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.


Isa 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.


Isa 35:3 ¶ Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.


Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.


Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.


Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.


Isa 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.


Isa 35:8 ¶ And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.


Isa 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:


Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Either way it goes down, it will be a glorious work of God! God have mercy in his wrath. Even so Lord come. Amen

 

[badger58]

just to point out, you only have 6 likes total to all your posts,
my guess is not one liked or agreed with your origanal theory on this thread.

-
per scripture the two witnesses cannot be God the Father
or the power of the Holy Spirit, as many others gave bible verses.

Can you give me the the scripture that clearly states that God can't do something, because that would be a good list to have on hand. I only know of one thing God cannot lie. Please post that list, so we can all see Gods limitations. I thought God was all powerful. We already have a precedence, in that He was able to create a body for His son. So what's the big deal. Please don't put God in a box. That is not biblical. All you can say is: You don't think God would do that. By the way, it would be nice to be liked by everyone, but we are not commanded to be liked, but we are commanded to speak the truth without partiality. Better are the blows of a friend than the kisses of your enemy. Peace