The two witnesses

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I've been slacking lately but today was a good day.
What do you think Ahwatukee?does this make you open up your heart to new studies on the Two Witnesses? :)
Hello Lifted,

To be honest, you haven't provided any scripture that links the two witnesses to the 144,000. I have not found anything else on the two witnesses outside of Revelation except for I believe that they may be mentioned Zech.4:11-14. I personally believe that they are two literal men who will prophecy for the first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period. I believe that when the beast comes up out of the Abyss, which is near the time of the end of their prophecy, the beast will kill them and they will not allow them to be buried and 3 1/2 days later they will come to life (Resurrect) and will ascend up to heaven, just as the scripture states.
 
Feb 21, 2016
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Ezra9:8
And now for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.
 
Feb 21, 2016
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Ezra9:8
And now for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.
How about this verse Ahwatukee?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
How about this verse Ahwatukee?
Hello Lifted,

Well, since Ezra was established to be written in 536 BC, that being during the time of the Babylonian captivity and that Cyrus, who was the king of Persia is mentioned; the remnant that is spoken of are those who would be coming back from exile to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple and to live in their own land, just as the decree by Cyrus proclaims. And therefore, I am pretty positive that the "remnant" in the verse has nothing to do with 144,000 nor the two witnesses. To apply this remnant to being the 144,000 would be a good example of taking information out of context.
 
Feb 21, 2016
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Hello Lifted,

Well, since Ezra was established to be written in 536 BC, that being during the time of the Babylonian captivity and that Cyrus, who was the king of Persia is mentioned; the remnant that is spoken of are those who would be coming back from exile to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple and to live in their own land, just as the decree by Cyrus proclaims. And therefore, I am pretty positive that the "remnant" in the verse has nothing to do with 144,000 nor the two witnesses.
The bible is awesome and is prophecy,filled with treasure.
Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Arial, Liberation Sans, FreeSans, sans-serif]Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.[/FONT]


 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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No doubt they are symbolic, you are starting to see that the book of Revelation is very symbolic now, which is good. :) But I already gave by the words of God who those 2 witnesses, 2 olive trees, and 2 candlesticks are. So why reject what God said is true here about His Word and Spirit being those 2?

Zechariah 4:1-6 “And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.”



Those 2 who bear witness in all of God's saints are shown here as well....

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Revelation was written in Apocalyptic Literary Style to hide true meaning from non believers (Romans) who would harm John or the 7 churches he wrote to if his writings were found. These symbols (most of them are OT symbols) replace the literal words.

EXAMPLES:

BEAST = empire
SEA = masses of people (unruly)
HORN = Leader or King
MOUNTAIN = Religion (Spiritual Stronghold)
CANDLESTICK = Church

InspiritInTruth, you make a lot of excellent points. Tying the 2 Witnesses of Rev 11 to Zec 4 is key. Tying 1 John 5 is also key as it is the same author obviously so John's lesson in 1 John 5 is applicable in Rev 11. But the point of Rev 11 is not to reemphasize 1 John 5 but rather to tell us in a practical sense what happens on earth to the 2 witnesses.

The main thrust of your post (if I read you correctly) is that the two witnesses are the WORD and SPIRIT? The WORD obviously is Christ and the SPIRIT, the Holy Spirit, the Helper, which Jesus sent to the disciples at Pentecost. Is Rev 11 discussing these same two witnesses, CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT being killed by Satan? Obviously Satan isn't going to kill Christ again nor does he have the power to kill the SPIRIT of GOD so what is happening in Rev 11?
 
Jan 7, 2015
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Revelation was written in Apocalyptic Literary Style to hide true meaning from non believers (Romans) who would harm John or the 7 churches he wrote to if his writings were found. These symbols (most of them are OT symbols) replace the literal words.

EXAMPLES:

BEAST = empire
SEA = masses of people (unruly)
HORN = Leader or King
MOUNTAIN = Religion (Spiritual Stronghold)
CANDLESTICK = Church

InspiritInTruth, you make a lot of excellent points. Tying the 2 Witnesses of Rev 11 to Zec 4 is key. Tying 1 John 5 is also key as it is the same author obviously so John's lesson in 1 John 5 is applicable in Rev 11. But the point of Rev 11 is not to reemphasize 1 John 5 but rather to tell us in a practical sense what happens on earth to the 2 witnesses.

The main thrust of your post (if I read you correctly) is that the two witnesses are the WORD and SPIRIT? The WORD obviously is Christ and the SPIRIT, the Holy Spirit, the Helper, which Jesus sent to the disciples at Pentecost. Is Rev 11 discussing these same two witnesses, CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT being killed by Satan? Obviously Satan isn't going to kill Christ again nor does he have the power to kill the SPIRIT of GOD so what is happening in Rev 11?
The bodies being killed represent the bodies of the saints who have the Lords 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) dwelling in them being killed, not that the beast is actually killing God's Word and Spirit. Keep in mind God's Word and Spirit are in all the Lords anointed saints, so by killing the messengers they try to kill the message.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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I covered this in post #36......

The book of Revelation is very symbolic, and one needs to pay close attention to the wording because that is where you will find the clues you need in other parts of scripture to unlock the mystery. But it is only by the Holy Spirit one can receive this understanding. God's 2 witnesses are in all his saints, it is the bodies of the saints that are laying in the streets. Just as God's saints are referred to in scripture as the "holy city" and as Zion. Notice the wording....

Revelation 11:7-9 "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. (war against the saints who have the testimony of Jesus Christ)[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

Now compare to the wording here.....

Isaiah 51:16-23
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Thus saith thy Lord the Lord, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over."

Notice above God calls his people Zion, and Jerusalem (holy city), and they lie in the streets, and then God tells them to awake as in resurrection, like the bodies of the 2 witnesses in the streets. Now notice the wording again....


Revelation 11:11
And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Compare....


Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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151
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The bodies being killed represent the bodies of the saints who have the Lords 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) dwelling in them being killed, not that the beast is actually killing God's Word and Spirit. Keep in mind God's Word and Spirit are in all the Lords anointed saints, so by killing the messengers they try to kill the message.
I agree completely.
 
Feb 9, 2010
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The two witnesses are actually 2 people that witness to Israel,to turn their hearts to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which the Bible says that Israel is blinded in part,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,which means salvation is no longer available to them,and God will take the blinders off Israel,although they are Messianic Jews now,but God will turn the nation of Israel to them.

The 144,000 do not lay die,and lay in the street,but they are the first fruits unto Christ,and God,so it probably means that they are the first ones to be added to the restoration of Israel,in the millennial reign of Christ.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
The two witnesses are actually 2 people that witness to Israel,to turn their hearts to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which the Bible says that Israel is blinded in part,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,which means salvation is no longer available to them,and God will take the blinders off Israel,although they are Messianic Jews now,but God will turn the nation of Israel to them.

The 144,000 do not lay die,and lay in the street,but they are the first fruits unto Christ,and God,so it probably means that they are the first ones to be added to the restoration of Israel,in the millennial reign of Christ.
How many fire breathing men can you locate in the Bible outside of Rev 11? Follow the symbolism.