The Unanswerable Questions

posthuman · May 30, 2015

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
(Romans 8:3-4)

it is by His mercy, and it is Him who is to be praised!

JGIG · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

Eliwood, what you are relaying here is someone's interpretation of those prophecies.

Let's consider what we do know, revealed Truth in the Scriptures, and what we do not know, unrevealed prophecies in the Scriptures:

Revealed Truths According to Scripture

Edicts, ceremonies, sacrifices, all things pertaining to commandment-keeping in the Old Covenant were overseen and mediated by priests. Of what tribe were these priests, including the High Priests? (Answer: Levi)
Scripture tells us that Christ Jesus is now, and forever, the Perfect High Priest of the New Covenant (see Hebrews chapters 7-10). "He is a priest forever, by an oath from God and the power of an indestructible life."
Scripture also tells us that Christ Jesus is not of the tribe of Levi, but of the tribe of Judah - the tribe from which Messiah was prophesied to come, yet not the tribe from which priests of the Old Covenant come.
We know from the Scriptures that two priesthoods are never in effect at the same time. Melchizedek gave way to the Levitical priesthood; the Levitical priesthood gave way to Christ's priesthood.
The Scriptures tell us that Jesus is now a priest forever - and since two priesthoods cannot be in effect at the same time, and Christ is a forever priest, we know that the Levitical priesthood, the priesthood of the Old Covenant, where sacrifices and Feasts and ceremonial cleansings and rites were performed under Levite priests are NEVER COMING BACK.

So we MUST filter unrevealed prophecy through revealed Truth - that which is unclear through that which is clear.

For Jesus to mediate Old Covenant practices would be illegal ACCORING TO THE LAW itself.

It's only seems strange to those who promote the keeping of the Old Covenant because they're trying to force a meaning into Scriptures that don't fit in light of the revealed Truths of the Work and position of Christ.

Feast keeping involves sacrifices; sacrifices require a high priest; the high priesthood that mediated feast sacrifices was of the tribe of Levi. That priesthood is not in effect and is never coming back because God has installed Christ, of the tribe of Judah, into the position of High Priest of the New Covenant.

Christ's position is permanent, because unlike priests of the Old Covenant, Jesus will never die - and therefore is a Priest forever:

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (from Heb. 7)

One must interpret unrevealed prophecy by revealed Truths. And the Truths about Christ and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood preclude any part of the Old Covenant coming back.

Again, this is someone's interpretation of what the prophet is saying here. There is NO reference to a 1000 year reign in this passage.

And what is the law that went out from Zion?

Let's take it one point at a time, relying on revealed Truth according to the Scriptures:

From what mountain did the Law go out? (Mt. Sinai)
Why would the Law need to 'go out' twice?
Jesus taught the Law to those born under the Law (which had already 'gone out' from Sinai), but Jesus also taught the following:

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (from Jn. 6)

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (from Jn. 13)

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” (from Jn. 14)

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. (from Jn. 15)

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)

Believe and love, those are the commands of Christ - that is the Law that has gone out from Zion.

Now go back and look at the Isaiah passage you posted. In light of the High Priesthood of Christ and of His words from Jerusalem, what conclusion must be drawn?

Remember - we must always interpret unrevealed prophecies by revealed Truth. The revealed Truth of the Work of Christ and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood precludes the Old Covenant ever coming back as a functioning covenantal system.

-JGIG

JGIG · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

Hmmm. Not what Scripture tells us.

Scripture does not separate sin, death, and the Law, but consistently links them to each other:

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. (from Rom. 5)

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. (from Rom. 5)

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. (from 1 Cor. 15)

7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. (from 2 Cor. 3)

Re-read Romans 8:2 - For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

With a Galatians 5:18 chaser - But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

You cannot be both led by the Spirit and under the Law; you cannot be subject to the Spirit of life and subject to the law of sin and death.

The Scriptures are actually quite clear on this issue.

-JGIG

Yonah · May 30, 2015

People will and always have believed what they choose, that said , no matter how much "proof" one is shown those who have made the decision to believe a certain way will do so. we all have embarked on a journey, and the end of that journey is a city built without hands, the Father has drawn each to our Savior (John 6:44) and he will raise them up in the last day, He decides how to lead a person to the knowledge of truth, he knows the heart and can, and will gently lead all to the fullness of what he has for us, each ones like experience and shaped worldview, determines what , when and how much, truth one can put to practice in their life, he knows just when to add to, and even take away from a persons knowledge, because some of what we have been taught is simply not in the scriptures but is part of mans own opinion of what is actually written there, just because someone believes something different from what you have been taught does not mean their wrong, and if they are, prayer and a heart felt supplication before Him who drew him will go much further then trying to convince them yourself, the path each are on (if they love Him and seek Him) will eventually all lead to that city, our awesome and mighty creators arm is not short that he cannot save to the uttermost ALL who call upon Him, so rather then attempting to "rescue" someone from false doctrine, (as noble as that undertaking may seem) you might well be thrusting them off the path our awesome and wise Savior has chosen for them to walk, remember we all who love His appearing are His, and children make mistakes and sometimes believe the wrong things, but His children we are, and all we need do is trust Him and pray for those who we believe to be in error, and yield to the leading of the Spirit of truth ourselves, show the love we have for Him to each other, then growth will come... shalom.

sparkman · May 30, 2015

Eliwood is being influenced by Herbert Armstrong's teachings. We have had discussions on this. My understanding is that he denies the salvation of all non-Sabbathkeepers, considering them to still be in their sins.

This is exactly the position I held as an Armstrongite.

He also believes the Trinity is false, and that mankind is in a process of perfection to be a God being. He believes that God is a family into which human beings will be born.

sparkman · May 30, 2015

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex. 31:18, 34:28; Deut. 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor. 3:4-18, Gal. 3:17-25, Heb. 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal. 4:10, Rom. 14:5-6, Col. 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb. 9:15; Jn. 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn.13:34).

sparkman · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

I didn't really mention these in my first post, but there several prophecies in Isaiah and Zachariah that say God's people will be learning and obeying all His commandments after the second coming. Check this out:

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain." (Zechariah 14:17)

Doesn't it seem kind of strange that God wouldn't expect his people to observe his feasts after the cross, but that He DOES expect them to observe it after the second coming?

Here's another prophesy from Isaiah about the thousand year rain of Jesus Christ:

"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:3)

The Prophets also state that individuals will be sacrificing animals during the Millennium, so if you hold that position, you must by logic adopt animal sacrifices. By the way, I think the prophets were speaking of a return to worshipping God in a manner that they could understand.

sparkman · May 30, 2015

Attached is a file relating to this topic.

Jeff_56 · May 30, 2015

stick with GOD'S WORD. not armstrongism sparkman was in, nor when the pendulum for him swung too far the other way in too much reaction to armstrongism into other (maybe worse) errors.

sparkman · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

Another issue is that much of the festival observances, etcetera, involved the Temple. I wonder how festival observers reconcile this. I suppose like Worldwide Church of God did..their authorities designated the places to congregate. However, this is not in line with the Old Covenant. Where do they derive their authority to do so? I know with Armstrongites he claimed to be an Apostle so he had self-derived authority, but where do others get that authority?

sparkman · May 30, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

Herbert Armstrong claimed to derive his doctrine from Scripture, but only if you had his secret decoder ring and booklets to read alongside Scripture. I suspect it's the same with all of the similar cults that teach adherence to Old Covenant observances and deny fundamental Christian doctrines like the Trinity.

sparkman · May 30, 2015

Armstrong's secret decoder ring:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Too bad he didn't read the whole chapter and see what the result of his hermeneutical method was:

Isaiah 28:13
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

In other words, find verses skipping here and there through Scripture, and assemble them to support your presupposition, and bam!!!! You've got doctrine that sells to gullible people..young Christians like I was at the time and others.

sparkman · May 30, 2015

This individual has posted Reformed Church of God links in the chatroom so he is influenced by their theology which is basically Armstrongism.

I was a member of Worldwide Church of God during Armstrongism and about a decade after. They not only taught that the Sabbath and Holy Days were necessary for salvation but denied the salvation of all Christians outside their fellowship. Definitely non Sabbathkeepers were considered to be unsaved and still in their sins. They denied the Trinity and held that the Holy Spirit was not a Person but a force God used to accomplish his will. They believed that Christians were God beings in embryonic form and would be fully God in the resurrection. They held a view of Gods nature that is anthropomorphic and akin to open theism. There are other adherents to this false theology on this forum. They are quite arrogant like Jehovah's Witnesses as they think they have "the truth" and all other Christians are deceived by Satan. Typical cult mentality. I believed the same stuff for at least 10 years.

MarcR · May 31, 2015

Your basic premise is faulty. The Law is not perfect. Ro 8:2-3
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV

I believe that the Law of God, that the psalmist refers to, is and looks forward to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, NOT the law of Moses, which is the law of sin and death.

More later I need to go

Gr8grace · May 31, 2015

MarcR said:

Your basic premise is faulty. The Law is not perfect. Ro 8:2-3
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV

I believe that the Law of God, that the psalmist refers to, is and looks forward to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, NOT the law of Moses, which is the law of sin and death.

More later I need to go

Looking forward to the "more." Because what has already been stated is great!

MarcR · May 31, 2015

Eliwood said:

Your basic premise is faulty. The Law is not perfect. Ro 8:2-3
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV

If God had intended the Law to be perfect; he would not have anticipated its failure in:
Ge 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
KJV
and
Ge 22:8
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
KJV

andLev 17:11
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
KJV

The intent of the Law was to demonstrate its own inadequacy.

I believe that the Law of God, that the psalmist refers to, is and looks forward to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, NOT the law of Moses, which is the law of sin and death.

The truth that the psalmist delighted in God's Commandments is unchanging.

The inference that we do well to delight in God's Word (personified by Jesus) is also true.

The WAY of righteousness is and always has been faith in God's provision!

Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Job, among others, found the way to righteousness without the Law.

Ro 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
KJV

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV

Furthermore, David, an adulterer and a murder is called by God a man after mine own heart:Ac 13:20-22
20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
KJV
all this in spite of the law!

There are TWO covenants: the OLD and the NEW (actually there are several others but tor the purpose of this discussion I choose to temporarily ignore them).
Heb 8:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV

The Law is unchanged! Both covenants still exist and are NOT in conflict with one another. You can NOT be under both covenants at the same time.

In order to derive righteousness from the Law it is necessary to keep every precept flawlessly and perpetually.
When we allow Jesus to be our righteousness, we accept that He indeed kept every precept flawlessly and perpetually on our behalf; because He knew we could not do so.

The Sabbath is and always will be sundown Friday through sundown Saturday. Under the New Covenant, it is NOT imposed on anyone; but I believe there is great value in observing it.

Jesus IS the WORD (Jn 1:1-14) and he is indeed forever.

That is still true; but under the New Covenant our sin(s) is (are) forgiven.

Ro 8:1-11
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV

Jesus is the Word, and He is God; and He has kept the Law perfectly on our behalf and sacrificed Himself in order that our sin be hidden from the Father's sight by His righteousness, which He graciously imparts to us since we have none of our own.

Ro 3:21-28
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
KJV

Isa 64:5-6
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
KJV

NEVER! All its precepts are still delightful. We now understand that delightful as it is, it is incapable of imparting righteousness; therefore while we delight in the Law, we trust Jesus for our righteousness.

We are still at liberty to try; but to some of us it seems wiser to believe God's Word, which tells we are not able to do so!

It is still true; and everyone who has ever attempted to do that duty has failed! That is why Jesus, in His grace and mercy has done it for us.

Because we believe God when He tells us we are unable to do so and that Jesus did it for us.

The Law has NOT changed and we may still read it as it was given by MOSES.

What has changed is that we who are under grace are no longer the Law; since we can only be under one or the other. Ro 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
KJV

Do you present yourself before the Lord at Jerusalem 3 times a year at the appointed times? Ex 23:14-17
14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.
15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty

16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord God.
KJV

Most of us can't afford the fare.

What is called 'Moses Seat' was a stone seat in the courtyard of every synagogue in which the rabbi who was expounding on that week's portion of Scripture sat.

Jesus was obviously being sarcastic as evident when you read the text in context.

Mt 23:1-17
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
KJV

If you can cite Scripture that says paul claimed he obeyed the law I will answer this question.

Ro 3:21-31
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
KJV

NOTE THAT THE LAW IS ESTABLISHED BY FAITH NOT WORKS

2 Pe 3:9-18
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
KJV
This is NOT about keeping the LAW! This is about rejecting the false teachings of the gnostics and the judaizers

sparkman · May 31, 2015

Instead of Reformed Church of God, I should have said Restored Church of God. The poster of this thread has provided links to these teachings in the chat room.

He is obviously affected by their teachings and I have tried to talk to him about these falsehoods but he will not listen. I was wrapped up in Armstrongism for a decade. On the surface, the teachings seem reasonable but they fall apart under critical examination.

The focus of these individuals is not on Jesus Christ and salvation through faith in Him and his perfect sacrifice.

I Cor 15: Now I would remind you, brothers,[SUP][a][/SUP] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, [SUP]4 [/SUP]that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

II Timothy 2: [SUP]23 [/SUP]Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And the Lord's servant[SUP][e][/SUP] must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, [SUP]25 [/SUP]correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, [SUP]26 [/SUP]and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Herbert Armstrong was all about foolish, ignorant controversies involving legalism, prophecy and speculation. That was the essence of his nature.

Armstrongism is a snare of the devil. It does not focus upon Jesus Christ and salvation through faith in him. It is all about pursuing righteousness through the works of the law. It is not about the gospel, in fact it is anti-Gospel.

Robert

Pumicestone · May 31, 2015

Wow, this subject has generated some long and erudite contributions ..... well, long anyway.

I reckon Yonah hit the nail on the head.

Yonah said:

Although, personally, I cannot "choose" to believe anything.
For me, there has to be evidence or experience - a reason to believe.
I would genuinely love to be convinced - how simple life would be !

sparkman · Jun 1, 2015

Eliwood said:

"Test everything, hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

If you were to ask 10 fellow christians which commandments of the Bible we should be following today, you would likely get 10 different answers. It's common today for people to say that certain parts of God's law have been "done away with" or "nailed to the cross" or "only for the jews" or "fulfilled so that we don't have to obey them anymore". But is this the truth?

This thread is addressed to anyone who believes that certain parts of the law no longer apply. See how many of the following questions you can answer without causing contradiction in scripture. Please keep in mind, the purpose here is to study the word of God, and to seek his will. We need to leave personal feelings and pre-concieved ideas out of our reading, and ask ourselves, "what does God want". I am not attemping to cause any hostility or division here. Only to reveal the truth.

1. If the law of God is perfect, how can we say that what was perfect has been made better?
"The law of the Lord is perfect" (psalm 19:7)

2. If the law of God is freedom. how can freedom be "bondage" as many ministers label it as today?
"I will always obey your law, or ever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts. "(psalm 119:44-45)

3. Can what is declared to be true become untrue?
"Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights." (psalm 119:143)

4. Can the way of righteousness change? Especially after God repeatedly says throughout scripture that He never changes?
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law." (Isaiah 51:7)

5. If the law of God is forever, when did "forever" become temporary?

Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160)
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8)

6. Since the Law of God is what defines sin, can what is defined as sin suddenly become good and acceptable?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

7. If God is the word, and God does not change, how can we say the word of God has changed?
(John 1:1) (Malachi 3:6)

8. If we are to delight in the law, when did it stop being a delight?
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."(Romans 7:22) (psalm 1:2)

9. If Christ walked according to law of God, and we are to follow Christ's example, why do we not also follow the law of God?

10. If keeping all of God's commandments is the whole duty of man, is that no longer true?
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

11. If ALL scripture is instruction in righteousness, why do so many christians think that we are not supposed to practice all scripture?
(1 Timothy 3:16)

12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?

13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)

14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?

15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?
"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)

16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?
"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)

17. Why do so many people mistakingly use Pauls letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this? Based on the following passage, Paul's letters are probably the worst books of the bible to use when it comes to teaching against God's commandments....

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."(2 Peter 3:15-17)

Your misunderstanding is that Old Covenant = Law. The word "law" in Scriptures is used in different ways. Even the word Torah (towrah) means more than just the Old Covenant; it means "teachings" or "commands". Believers are to be faithful to those commands or teachings that apply to them.

At the time of Adam, the commands that applied to him may have been as simple as "don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Noah had different commands from God. The Israelites had other commands that applied to them, namely the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant is done away with. Christians follow a different set of laws. Some of the elements of the Old Covenant are moral absolutes, so those apply for everyone at all times.

Take the Sabbath for example. If you claim Sabbath observance is demanded of Christians, you need to explain how it was OK for priests to do hard manual labor on the Sabbath with regards to the Sabbath, if it is a moral absolute. The Sabbath requirements did not apply to them. Sacrificing the animals and preparing them on the altar was hard physical work. This proves that Sabbath observance is not a moral absolute that applies to all people all the time.

You need to critically examine the teachings of Armstrongism from the opposite view. As we have discussed, his theology is the main source of the toilet you are drinking from. If all the energy you are using to absorb his heresies were deployed to the message of Jesus Christ and him crucified, they would be much better deployed.

sparkman · Jun 1, 2015

Eliwood said:

"Test everything, hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

If you were to ask 10 fellow christians which commandments of the Bible we should be following today, you would likely get 10 different answers. It's common today for people to say that certain parts of God's law have been "done away with" or "nailed to the cross" or "only for the jews" or "fulfilled so that we don't have to obey them anymore". But is this the truth?

This thread is addressed to anyone who believes that certain parts of the law no longer apply. See how many of the following questions you can answer without causing contradiction in scripture. Please keep in mind, the purpose here is to study the word of God, and to seek his will. We need to leave personal feelings and pre-concieved ideas out of our reading, and ask ourselves, "what does God want". I am not attemping to cause any hostility or division here. Only to reveal the truth.

1. If the law of God is perfect, how can we say that what was perfect has been made better?
"The law of the Lord is perfect" (psalm 19:7)

2. If the law of God is freedom. how can freedom be "bondage" as many ministers label it as today?
"I will always obey your law, or ever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts. "(psalm 119:44-45)

3. Can what is declared to be true become untrue?
"Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights." (psalm 119:143)

4. Can the way of righteousness change? Especially after God repeatedly says throughout scripture that He never changes?
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law." (Isaiah 51:7)

5. If the law of God is forever, when did "forever" become temporary?

Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160)
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8)

6. Since the Law of God is what defines sin, can what is defined as sin suddenly become good and acceptable?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

7. If God is the word, and God does not change, how can we say the word of God has changed?
(John 1:1) (Malachi 3:6)

8. If we are to delight in the law, when did it stop being a delight?
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."(Romans 7:22) (psalm 1:2)

9. If Christ walked according to law of God, and we are to follow Christ's example, why do we not also follow the law of God?

10. If keeping all of God's commandments is the whole duty of man, is that no longer true?
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

11. If ALL scripture is instruction in righteousness, why do so many christians think that we are not supposed to practice all scripture?
(1 Timothy 3:16)

12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?

13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)

14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?

15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?
"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)

16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?
"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)

17. Why do so many people mistakingly use Pauls letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this? Based on the following passage, Paul's letters are probably the worst books of the bible to use when it comes to teaching against God's commandments....

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."(2 Peter 3:15-17)

The tone of your questions and the title of the the thread itself conveys your attitude of spiritual superiority which is part and parcel of Armstrongism.

So, any attempt to say that you are just trying to discuss Scripture is disingenuous. You betray yourself. If you tell others that they can't answer your questions, you are asserting that you have the truth and they do not. So, you are basically condemning yourself by your own words.

Every one of your questions can be answered if you were willing to consider the answers.

Here's a thread I wrote on Armstrongism which shows some of the many problems with it, including the claim that God is a family and that converted human beings will be born into it and be God beings. When I was involved with it, speculation was that we would have our own planets ruling over human beings and being worshipped by them. In fact, it was speculated that we might even have to die on the Cross for them like Jesus Christ did.

Eliwood has indicated in the chatroom that he holds this theology, which he apparently learned from Restored Church of God led by David Pack, at least in part, as he referred to his videos in the chatroom.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rongism-forum-seventh-day-sabbathkeeping.html

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