The Unanswerable Questions

Eliwood · May 29, 2015

"Test everything, hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

If you were to ask 10 fellow christians which commandments of the Bible we should be following today, you would likely get 10 different answers. It's common today for people to say that certain parts of God's law have been "done away with" or "nailed to the cross" or "only for the jews" or "fulfilled so that we don't have to obey them anymore". But is this the truth?

This thread is addressed to anyone who believes that certain parts of the law no longer apply. See how many of the following questions you can answer without causing contradiction in scripture. Please keep in mind, the purpose here is to study the word of God, and to seek his will. We need to leave personal feelings and pre-concieved ideas out of our reading, and ask ourselves, "what does God want". I am not attemping to cause any hostility or division here. Only to reveal the truth.

1. If the law of God is perfect, how can we say that what was perfect has been made better?
"The law of the Lord is perfect" (psalm 19:7)

2. If the law of God is freedom. how can freedom be "bondage" as many ministers label it as today?
"I will always obey your law, or ever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts. "(psalm 119:44-45)

3. Can what is declared to be true become untrue?
"Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights." (psalm 119:143)

4. Can the way of righteousness change? Especially after God repeatedly says throughout scripture that He never changes?
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law." (Isaiah 51:7)

5. If the law of God is forever, when did "forever" become temporary?

Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160)
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8)

6. Since the Law of God is what defines sin, can what is defined as sin suddenly become good and acceptable?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

7. If God is the word, and God does not change, how can we say the word of God has changed?
(John 1:1) (Malachi 3:6)

8. If we are to delight in the law, when did it stop being a delight?
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."(Romans 7:22) (psalm 1:2)

9. If Christ walked according to law of God, and we are to follow Christ's example, why do we not also follow the law of God?

10. If keeping all of God's commandments is the whole duty of man, is that no longer true?
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

11. If ALL scripture is instruction in righteousness, why do so many christians think that we are not supposed to practice all scripture?
(1 Timothy 3:16)

12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?

13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)

14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?

15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?
"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)

16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?
"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)

17. Why do so many people mistakingly use Pauls letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this? Based on the following passage, Paul's letters are probably the worst books of the bible to use when it comes to teaching against God's commandments....

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."(2 Peter 3:15-17)

JesusIsAll · May 29, 2015

But the law could only convict man of sin, things like murder, lying, theft, adultery or worse: creating another law versus grace thread.

Jeff_56 · May 29, 2015

Eliwood said:

if you ask 10 persons crucified with christ, abiding in Him, who called on HIS NAME to be saved from their sin, and who were /are immersed in HIM, and HIS WORD abiding in them,
you will get ONE ANSWER*. in harmony entirely with all of GOD'S WORD.

*ONE ANSWER: no matter where they come from on earth. no matter how they were raised. no matter what religion they were raised in or not raised in previously.

Grandpa · May 29, 2015

Eliwood said:

I don't think a judaizer should use the complete jewish version bible. They should look for the complete grace version bible.

2 Peter 3:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

What is Peters solution from being led away with the error of the wicked? To not listen to Paul?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Grow in Grace and in the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That is Peters solution.

Seems like a much different solution than to disregard scripture. Apparently, Peters letters contain some things that are hard to understand as well... lol

Eliwood · May 29, 2015

The KJV translates it as "error of the lawless". And Peter also points out the the "ignorant and unstable" will twist Paul's words to their own destruction. With this warning in mind, does using Paul's letteres to teach against God's commandments sound like a good idea to you? Especially when there are at least 10 different places in those same letters where we are reminded to obey all God's commandments?

Eva1218 · May 29, 2015

The Law was made to let man know that they could never fulfill it and that they needed a SAVIOR so whether it still stands or is done away with man could never fulfill it. The WORD of GOD tells us that if even one is broken all are broken. The Beauty of this is we have a SAVIOR who has fulfill it for us. Now this does not state that it is only temporary and that we no longer have to abide by it it merely states we never could so anyone who is even remotely trying is failing miserably, What we are told to do by the ONE WHO fulfilled the Law JESUS is to Love the LORD thy GOD with all your heart, soul and mind and Love thy neighbor as yourself(Matthew 22:36-40.

Blessings!!!!!!!

p_rehbein · May 29, 2015

What a novel idea for a thread...............

JGIG · May 29, 2015

Eliwood has been listening to/watching 119 Ministries videos - a Judaizing sect that states that Yeshua is the 'living Torah' and that Torah (the Law) is God.

Google 119 Ministries The Unanswerable Questions and you will find a video that the OP basically copies.

119 Ministries claim to fame is in the asking of flawed and leading questions.

Every one of those questions are 'answerable' when one rightly divides the Word - on which side of the Cross, the Work of Christ do we reside? All is answered through the lens of the Good News of the Work of Christ.

I'm all for testing everything, and have watched much of what 119 Ministries has to offer. They teach heresy. Period.

-JGIG

JGIG · May 30, 2015

Q 1. If the law of God is perfect, how can we say that what was perfect has been made better?
"The law of the Lord is perfect" (psalm 19:7)
A The Law of God is perfect, and it wasn't the Law that was made better, but a righteousness from God, apart from the Law via the New Covenant which is better. The New Covenant is built on the Works of Christ, not on the performance of man. See the Letter to the Hebrews.

Q 2. If the law of God is freedom. how can freedom be "bondage" as many ministers label it as today?
"I will always obey your law, or ever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts. "(psalm 119:44-45)
A Before the Work of Christ, if Israel broke the Law, they were either put to death or thrown out of the camp. Freedom was based on performance. After the Work of Christ, if one puts their faith in Him they have died to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6, Gal. 2:19-21) - it no longer has any authority over us. Our righteousness, position, and freedom with God are in Christ, not in our performance of the Law. That gift of righteousness allows God to indwell us forever and produce His Fruit which we bear - love and all its subsets - which fulfill every law that God still cares about after the Cross.

Q 3. Can what is declared to be true become untrue?
"Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights." (psalm 119:143)
A Your verse doesn't really back up what you're saying there - how about this one: “Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.” Psalm 119:142

The Law is truth, and was the binding agreement between God and Israel at Sinai. Israel broke the covenant (see Jer. 31), and God promised a New Covenant that would not be like the Old. We have a New Covenant, built on better promises, with a superior High Priest, Who is Christ. Again, I refer you to the Letter to the Hebrews.

Q 4. Can the way of righteousness change? Especially after God repeatedly says throughout scripture that He never changes?
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law." (Isaiah 51:7)
A Yep.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (from Rom. 3)

And when did God ever say that righteousness ever came to man via the Law? It never could, because man could never keep it. See Hebrew Roots Movement – Man’s Righteousness or God’s Righteousness? for more on this.

Q 5. If the law of God is forever, when did "forever" become temporary?

Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160)
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8)
A You need to look at the concept of forever through the Hebraic lens

. From a study I did on this a few years ago:

Forever- . . . This may seem like a rather odd word to include in a glossary – after all, everybody knows what forever means, right? Not so fast. “Forever” is a word used in the HRM to convince Christians under the New Covenant that the Mosaic Law, the “Instructions”, the Old Covenant, endure as a “forever” Covenant. That the Law did not “pass away”. That the Law was not “nailed to the Cross”. Forever to most of us means from a point in time, whether it be from now or from some point in the past, to an intangible distance in the future (or past, regarding the eternal nature of God) . . . infinity.

Those in the Hebrew Roots Movement count on people thinking of that general definition when it comes to the word “forever” to sway them to believe this: That the verses referring God’s commandments (the Old Covenant) being “forever” binding prove that Christians (even though God has provided a New and superior Covenant, not dependent upon the actions of man Hebrews chapters 8-10) should be Torah observant. Let’s dig a little deeper into what the Hebrew concept of “forever” really means, since, after all, we’re supposed to be thinking with a Hebraic mindset . . .

Hebrew Word for forever – From Crosswalk.com, (source Brown, Driver, Briggs Lexicon) -

olam - עולם: Strongs H5769 –

long duration,
antiquity,
futurity,
for ever,
ever,
everlasting,
evermore,
perpetual,
old,
ancient,
world

ancient time, long time
(of past)
(of future)
for ever, always
continuous existence, perpetual
everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Olam [owlam] can mean forever, but doesn’t always mean forever. Its meaning is *conditional*,
>>>depending on the nature of that which is being described<<<.

From Christian-thinktank.com, and PAY ATTENTION HERE:
Olam thus seems to mean ‘indefinitely, with reference to the nature of the thing being so described.’ If the nature is God, then olam means ‘truly eternal’. If the nature is a human, then it means ‘as long as he lives’. If the nature is a relationship, then it means as long as the conditions upon which the relationship is based still hold. And this: And, since we know the Mosaic covenant was a conditional one, it could easily have been understood after the model of many others in the OT/Tanaak: “eternal, as long as the agreed upon conditions are met”. [Though I don't agree with everything in the article cited, the two statements above give a good description of the conditional nature of the word "olam".]

We know that while God held up His end of the bargain concerning the Old Covenant, Israel failed again and again when it came to their end of the bargain (rebellion and idolatry). God, in His Grace and Mercy, not only sustained Israel, but provided a New Covenant . . . the terms of which are not dependent on Israel (man), but dependent upon Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, Who perfectly held up His (both) end(s) of the bargain. This is a New Covenant, offered first to Israel, then to all mankind, fulfilling the promise of redemption given to Adam and Eve in the Garden (Romans 1:16).

Even from a Hebrew Roots site, Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings, we get this incomplete meaning of “olam”:

"The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. [An incomplete concept of 'olam' - remember the definition is conditional, depending upon that which is being described.] The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is [can be] simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is 'l’olam va’ed' and is usually translated as 'forever and ever' but in the Hebrew it means 'to the distant horizon and again' meaning 'a very distant time and even further' and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time." (ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html)

So in the Hebraic mindset, forever does not necessarily mean from a point in time to infinity. In fact, the concept of “olam”, when speaking of the Israelites’ failure in regard to the terms of the Old Covenant, flows beautifully into the truths of the New Covenant.

And those in the New Covenant? Well, we've died to the Law! (Rom. 7:4-6, Gal. 2:19-21)

Q 6. Since the Law of God is what defines sin, can what is defined as sin suddenly become good and acceptable?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)
A Who says sin is good and acceptable? Have you read the New Testament with its many, many exhortations regarding our behavior? And 1 Jn. 3:5 further states, "5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin." If we are in Him, God is no longer counting our sins against us (2 Cor. 5:18-19). There are earthly consequences for sinning, but not eternal ones if you are in Christ (1 Cor. 5). And it is Grace that teaches us to live godly and upright lives and to say no to ungodliness - not the Law (Tit. 2:11-14).

Q 7. If God is the word, and God does not change, how can we say the word of God has changed?
(John 1:1) (Malachi 3:6)
A "24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” (from Jn. 4) Are you saying that God is reduced to the written Scriptures? The Scriptures are AN expression of God, but they are not the COMPLETE expression of God - that role was reserved for Christ Jesus, who John describes as the 'Word', the 'logos', the 'exact representation', the 'fullness of the deity' of God (see Jn. 1, Heb. 1, Col. 2). God obviously has not changed, but His ways of interacting with mankind obviously have (read your Bible).

Q 8. If we are to delight in the law, when did it stop being a delight?
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."(Romans 7:22) (psalm 1:2)
A The Psalm 1:2 reference was before the Cross - it was the only way to be in covenant with God at the time. What does Paul say about the Law a few verses earlier in Rom. 7? That the Law aroused sinful passions in him and that in Christ he died to the Law! And in verses 22 and 23? "22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me." Then he states, "24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

See how delight shifts from the Law to Christ \o/ ?!

(due to length, continued below . . . )

JGIG · May 30, 2015

. . . continued from above . . .

Q 9. If Christ walked according to law of God, and we are to follow Christ's example, why do we not also follow the law of God?
A Christ commanded us to be perfect as God is perfect; only He could do that. Christ preached the Law to those born under the Law: "4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship."

To teach them how to keep the Law? No - to redeem them that we might receive adoption to sonship. Those under the Law are servants, not sons. And if you think you can follow the example of Christ in perfectly keeping the Law, knock yourself out. Just be sure to read the Law as it is written and not some watered-down version that claims that the whole Bible still applies to you today but then tells you all the things that you can't keep today

.

And note 1 Jn. 4 which says of those in Christ, "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world."

It has nothing to do with the keeping of laws, but of being in Christ.

Q 10. If keeping all of God's commandments is the whole duty of man, is that no longer true?
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
A First, let's cut the presumption that anyone is keeping all of the commandments of God. No one is. Second, how many laws are dead people under? And what does Romans 7 say those in Christ are to the Law? DEAD.

Q 11. If ALL scripture is instruction in righteousness, why do so many christians think that we are not supposed to practice all scripture?
(1 Timothy 3:16)
A Are you practicing the building of an ark in your backyard? Why or why not?

Do you practice the offering of sacrifices? Why or why not?

Do you go about slaying Philistines? Why or why not?

If ALL Scripture is instruction in righteousness, why are you not doing those things?

The answer is simple: They were commands for certain purposes for certain people, for a certain time. Feast and day keeping and dietary laws were much the same thing - they kept Israel separate from the world around them primarily to protect the bloodline of Christ so that Messiah would be recognized when He came. Now that He has come and done His Work, we are not to be separated from the world by religious observances, but by love; we are not to isolate ourselves from the world, but to go out to every tribe and tongue and share the Good News of the Work of Christ. One cannot practice isolation and permeation simultaneously.

Q 12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?
A Actually, Matthew 5 teaches that the Law cannot change until all is fulfilled. The heaven and earth bit is there for emphasis

. Did Jesus say He came to fulfill? Did He or did He lie? Christ referring to the least in the kingdom of heaven was Him preaching the Law to those under the Law. Was that before or after His Work? After His Work, are those in Christ bound to the Law or dead to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6, Gal. 2:19-21)

Q 13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)
A Because Jesus preached the Law to those under the Law. Was that before or after His Work? After His Work, are those in Christ bound to the Law or dead to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6, Gal. 2:19-21)?

Q 14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?
A Paul said that as a Pharisee, he was blameless according to the Law. Only until his next sin, of course (like Liz and Zach), and then there was that whole coveting issue he admits to in Romans 7, which was disobeying God, but nobody could see. So when Paul said that he obeyed God's Law, he was saying that in the eyes of men, he was blameless, but he knew in his heart that he was not keeping it. It's clear here:

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. (from Phil. 3)

And clearly, when reading any of Paul's letters as complete compositions, Paul DOES say that the Law IS abolished for those IN CHRIST. More on this here: Released/Delivered From the Law and Christ is the End of the Law – Getting Greeky About Romans 7, 10, and Ephesians 2

Q 15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?
"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)
A Ooooh, I love this one! Paul has just stated earlier in that same chapter this:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin."

And then Paul says this:

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

So why does Paul say we uphold the Law? Because it shuts every mouth and holds the whole world accountable to God.

The Law, as written, can only condemn because no one can keep it. Those of us who read the Law as written understand that, and uphold the Law as written as a big sign pointing to Christ, Who is the Way - the means by Whom the righteousness of God is given to all who have faith in Him.

I will take it a step further and say without apology that those who play at Law-keeping do NOT uphold the Law of God as He gave it, but water it down and 'keep' a law of their own creation, which points no one to Christ and results in the works of the flesh. Look those works of the flesh up some time. They're not pretty.

Q 16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?
"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)
A Those who are in Christ ARE keeping the commandments of God after the Cross: Believe on the One He has sent and love one another (1 Jn.3). Those who play at keeping Old Covenant Laws are 'keeping' a watered down law of their own creation and not at all the Law as God gave it. Ask yourself why you are not keeping God's Law as He gave it at Sinai . . .

Q 17. Why do so many people mistakingly use Pauls letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this? Based on the following passage, Paul's letters are probably the worst books of the bible to use when it comes to teaching against God's commandments....
"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."(2 Peter 3:15-17)
A Paul's letters are not at all hard to understand. He is brutally consistent when teaching about the believer's relationship to the Law (we are not bound to it in any way, shape or form - we are dead to the Law). When one looks at Paul's writings through the lens of the Work of Christ and Grace, they make perfect sense. When folks try to force a law-keeping agenda into Paul's letters, they indeed do become confusing. And about distorting other Scriptures . . . are you really keeping the Law as it was given by God or are you 'keeping' a watered down version, a law of your own creation? Who is really upholding the Law? Believers who know that in Christ they are dead to the Law and don't try to change it in any way to make it seem 'keepable'? Or those who still claim that the whole Bible is to be obeyed today, but then go about obeying very little of it.

Unanswerable?

Nah. You just have to look at everything through Christ:

- Who Christ is
- What He came to do
- What that actually accomplished, and
- Who those who believe in Christ are in Him

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

Eliwood · May 30, 2015

I didn't really mention these in my first post, but there several prophecies in Isaiah and Zachariah that say God's people will be learning and obeying all His commandments after the second coming. Check this out:

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain." (Zechariah 14:17)

Doesn't it seem kind of strange that God wouldn't expect his people to observe his feasts after the cross, but that He DOES expect them to observe it after the second coming?

Here's another prophesy from Isaiah about the thousand year rain of Jesus Christ:

"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:3)

Eliwood · May 30, 2015

Jgig. When it comes to saved christians being "dead to the law" you should keep in mind, Paul spoke of 2 different laws.

The law of God, and the law of sin and death.

If he was teaching people that they were dead to the law of God, the Bible would be litterally full of contradictions. But if he was teaching that they were free from the law of sin and death, he simply meant that Christ's sacrifice covers the death penalty that they were due for. Hope that helps you.

because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2)

posthuman · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

maybe we should be asking why the apostles talked about law as bondage, instead of attributing that language solely to 'many ministers today'

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:6)

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
(Galatians 5:1)

Paul's not the only one who spoke this way. let's not presume that the apostles were at odds with each other.
quoting Peter:

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.
(Acts 15:10-11)

and Peter said this in the assembly of all the believers in Jerusalem. know what? they agreed. James stood up and presiding, restated what Peter and Barnabas and Paul had said, and then together as one body, the whole council wrote that

It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.
(Acts 15:28-29)

so it isn't just all the apostles that agreed speaking of the law as bondage, but also ((explicitly)) the Holy Spirit.
the law is good, but it doesn't save. by it all flesh is condemned. through the mercy and grace of God shown through Christ, we may be redeemed - so Christ is greater than the law. in Christ is freedom!!

valiant · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

I didn't really mention these in my first post, but there several prophecies in Isaiah and Zachariah that say God's people will be learning and obeying all His commandments after the second coming. Check this out:

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain." (Zechariah 14:17)

Doesn't it seem kind of strange that God wouldn't expect his people to observe his feasts after the cross, but that He DOES expect them to observe it after the second coming?

Here's another prophesy from Isaiah about the thousand year rain of Jesus Christ:

"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:3)

Now where does it say that they refer to a Millennium? That is a misunderstanding of God's word. They are in process of fulfilment right now. Jerusalem is the new Jerusalem (Gal 4.20 ff; Heb 12.20-22)

valiant · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

Jgig. When it comes to saved christians being "dead to the law" you should keep in mind, Paul spoke of 2 different laws.

The law of God, and the law of sin and death.

If he was teaching people that they were dead to the law of God, the Bible would be litterally full of contradictions. But if he was teaching that they were free from the law of sin and death, he simply meant that Christ's sacrifice covers the death penalty that they were due for. Hope that helps you.

because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2)

If the Torah is the law of God then it is that to which we are dead (Rom 7.1-6).

Gr8grace · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

Your young, don't get caught up in the bondage of legalism and following the law. Paul has the easy plan for the Christian.....and guess what? He does not contradict anything in the bible. Paul just has the mystery of the Christian way of life. Not many Pastors teach the mystery doctrine. It is revealed to Paul, and Paul reveals it to us. Unfortunately, it still remains a mystery to most Christians.

Here is a part of that mystery doctrine, that you are struggling with right now.......

Christians are under 4 mandates. 2 negative and 2 positive.

1. Do not Grieve the Spirit.
2. Do not quench the Spirit.
3. Be filled with the Spirit.
4. Walk in the Spirit.

When the believer is living this way(the Christian way of life) the believer is not sinning, and is following the Law.

And when we are not living this way, we are covered by Grace. It takes a lot of Grace. at least for me.

And if one thinks that following the law is the Christian way of life........that is classified under the quenching of the Spirit. We are not walking in the Spirit, if we think we are to follow the law(Law of Christ/Law of liberty).

Grandpa · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

Your complete Judaizers bible isn't a very good translation.

Romans 8:2-4
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What's the law of sin and death?

2 Corinthians 3:7-8

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

The ministration of death, written on stones is not the same ministration of the Spirit.

The law of the spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has freed us from the ministration of Death written on stones.

Galatians 3:2-3

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

After we have come to Christ are we obligated to go back to working at the law in the OT?

Galatians 3:10-11

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

You have to decide which one you want. The curse or the blessing. Death and Condemnation or Life and Joy. I guess if you confuse them all together you will have a really hard time choosing.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Everyone that labours at the Ministration of Condemnation and Death written on stones can receive Rest by coming to Christ. Or you can just continue with your work at the law, but thats pretty stubborn and ultimately to no avail.

You know, just like judaism...

Hebrews 7:18-19

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Gr8grace · May 30, 2015

Eliwood said:

Edit: I bolded a couple of things that I couldn't get edited in time from first post.

Your young, don't get caught up in the bondage of legalism and following the law. Paul has the easy plan for the Christian.....and guess what? He does not contradict anything in the bible. Paul just has the mystery of the Christian way of life. Not many Pastors teach the mystery doctrine. It is revealed to Paul, and Paul reveals it to us. Unfortunately, it still remains a mystery to most Christians.

Here is a part of that mystery doctrine, that you are struggling with right now.......

Christians are under 4 mandates. 2 negative and 2 positive.

1. Do not Grieve the Spirit.
2. Do not quench the Spirit.
3. Be filled with the Spirit.
4. Walk in the Spirit.

When the believer is living this way(the Christian way of life) the believer is not sinning, and is following the Law(Law of Christ/Law of liberty.)

And when we are not living this way, we are covered by Grace. It takes a lot of Grace. at least for me.

And if one thinks that following the law is the Christian way of life........that is classified under the quenching of the Spirit. We are not walking in the Spirit, if we think we are to follow the law(Mosaic Law)

Vernon · May 30, 2015

It is plain from the New Testament that the commandments of Christ are to love God and love one another, by walking in obedience to these commandments you fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses.

If you love, you will not dishonor your parents, you will not kill, you will not commit adultry, you will not lie, you will not steal, you will not covet.

"and this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another even as he gave us commandment." 1John 3:23

Eliwood · May 30, 2015

"The carnal mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8:7)

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