The Way of the Sword in the Old Testament; Has it Ended?

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Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
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#21
We are speaking of God asking us for a holy war, and the scripture relating Christ and a sword is not a scripture asking us to have a holy war, as God asked that the Amorites be done away with.
Christians are those who are one with Christ. If Christ was on earth to send a sword so too are Christians. War doesn't always mean bloodshed. Wars of attrition are an example of war without bloodshed. The question comes back to what is meant by "sword"?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#22
You want me to give comment?

OK,

These verses support a separation of church and state.

“Separation of church and state, frees a church and its members from the coercive power of the state so that the exercise of religion is unimpeded” (What’s the Catholic View on Church and State). The church should not be manipulated to promote and execute the wills of the government and the government should not interfere with a person’s religious beliefs and practices. Many of the fighters that signed up to fight in the crusades did so as a result of the persuasive speech by Pope Urban II, fearing going to hell if they did not. Emperor Alexius I imposed his desires for the State onto the Church by urging the Pope to help him fight the Muslims, overtaking so much land, so that he would have his other interests met. The results of all of the crusades proved to be violent and disastrous. The Muslims killed the Jews, the Christians killed the Muslims, the Muslims killed the Christians and it continued for over 200 years, all in the name of religion.
https://www.cram.com/essay/The-Crusades-Of-Pope-Urban-II/F3Y4VY9UREEX

On November 27, 1095, Pope Urban II makes perhaps the most influential speech of the Middle Ages, giving rise to the Crusades by calling all Christians in Europe to war against Muslims in order to reclaim the Holy Land, with a cry of “Deus vult!” or “God wills it!”
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/pope-urban-ii-orders-first-crusade
Oh, ok you were referring to separation of Church and State. Sorry, I'm not a mind reader.
Question: Is your body separate from your spirit?
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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#23
Oh, ok you were referring to separation of Church and State. Sorry, I'm not a mind reader.
Question: Is your body separate from your spirit?
No need for snarkiness with the mind reader comment.
Please share you thoughts then.

But yes, the flesh and the spirit are in conflict with each other.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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#24
Christians are those who are one with Christ. If Christ was on earth to send a sword so too are Christians. War doesn't always mean bloodshed. Wars of attrition are an example of war without bloodshed. The question comes back to what is meant by "sword"?
Put on the whole armor of God.
Paul in Ephesians 6 Paul clarifies that the battle is not against flesh and blood, but a spiritual battle against the evil spiritual forces. Paul then goes on to elaborate on the armor but it is apparent at this point that we are NOT to put on a literal suit of armor and do earthly battle. Instead we are to put on the armor of the Word and Faith and of the Spirit and do spiritual battle.
There are several defensive pieces of armor and only one offensive piece of armor - the sword. The sword comes last. I interpret this as being the last piece to use. Once you have the rest of the armor on you can then, and only then, go on the offensive.

In revelation 19 Jesus had a sword come out of his mouth. Normally a warrior would draw his sword from his sheath, but Jesus has the sword come out of his mouth - this is strange and needs careful consideration.
Since Jesus's Kingdom is not of this world, Then perhaps this sword from his mouth represents spiritual power and victory more so than fleshly slaughter.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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#25
Spiritually a sword can do us no good. We are also not under a theocracy where God demands us to take the promise land which God did prepare by the sword as the Ottoman Empire fell, Hitler was stopped and this prepared for God's people to reclaim land that they had lost.
God has authority over the governments and uses them for his purposes.

But the promised land is no longer Israel. The promised land is the church. The church is where the promise land is now. The promised land is in the spiritual realm now.

God's people are those who are in Christ Jesus. The Jews are not God's people unless they call on the name of the Lord and that name is Jesus Christ.

So until Jesus returns, we will see war, crime, and injustice. It is part of life. For evil to prevail, it is when good men do nothing. God often called out to His people on why they let evil prevail and even asking where are those who will stand against it?
And for this purpose God establishes governmental authorities. It is these governmental authorities that bare the sword and serves justice and order. I believe a christian does has freedom to serve the government as a police officer or soldier. But that christian does not bare arms in the name of Christ. He bares arms in the name of the municipality he is police officer in to keep peace and order. Or he bares arms in the name of the country he serves to keep peace and order.

We are not to bare arms and draw the sword in the name of Christ or in the name of God. Christ said, "No more of this!" We are not to bring forth christianity by the sword.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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#26
The physical sword of the old Testament foreshadows our spiritual warfare today. So many physical/material things of the OT act as symbols for NT spiritual things. Another fine example is the material prosperity of OT men of God.
The temple was a literal stone temple in the OT but became a spiritual temple in the NT with Jesus being the cornerstone. Jesus is not a literal cornerstone obviously, but a spiritual cornerstone.
And just like the temple the literal promised land has also moved into the spiritual realm. The promised land is now the church.
But many evangelicals want to revert back to a literal promised land in Israel and a literal stone temple in Jerusalem. And they want to combine the church with the American government to fight with literal swords for it.
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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#27
God has authority over the governments and uses them for his purposes.

But the promised land is no longer Israel. The promised land is the church. The church is where the promise land is now. The promised land is in the spiritual realm now.

God's people are those who are in Christ Jesus. The Jews are not God's people unless they call on the name of the Lord and that name is Jesus Christ.



And for this purpose God establishes governmental authorities. It is these governmental authorities that bare the sword and serves justice and order. I believe a christian does has freedom to serve the government as a police officer or soldier. But that christian does not bare arms in the name of Christ. He bares arms in the name of the municipality he is police officer in to keep peace and order. Or he bares arms in the name of the country he serves to keep peace and order.

We are not to bare arms and draw the sword in the name of Christ or in the name of God. Christ said, "No more of this!" We are not to bring forth christianity by the sword.
But the promised land is no longer Israel. The promised land is the church. The church is where the promise land is now. The promised land is in the spiritual realm now.
Not according to Deuteronomy 4:40. Also the end times will take place in this land of Jesus reigning in a new Kingdom.

God's people are those who are in Christ Jesus. The Jews are not God's people
Yes but God's chosen race still has God's hand on them.


Romans 11:1-2
New International Version

The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

We are not to bare arms and draw the sword in the name of Christ or in the name of God. Christ said, "No more of this!" We are not to bring forth christianity by the sword.
Agree to everything in this quote but the no more of this quote by Jesus. You seem to apply it out of context.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#28
The temple was a literal stone temple in the OT but became a spiritual temple in the NT with Jesus being the cornerstone. Jesus is not a literal cornerstone obviously, but a spiritual cornerstone.
And just like the temple the literal promised land has also moved into the spiritual realm. The promised land is now the church.
But many evangelicals want to revert back to a literal promised land in Israel and a literal stone temple in Jerusalem. And they want to combine the church with the American government to fight with literal swords for it.
And they want to combine the church with the American government to fight with literal swords for it.
Could you explain this above in more detail.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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#29
Yes but God's chosen race still has God's hand on them.


Romans 11:1-2
New International Version

The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:
God did not reject Israel. But many of them rejected God and His Savior.
God shows no partiallity toward or against the Jews. This is false teaching to promote Catholism by another name. The Pope gave special attention to Israel and ordered for four crusades to obtain it.

Romans 10:11-13
11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[a] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Acts 10:34-35
34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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#30
God did not reject Israel. But many of them rejected God and His Savior.
God shows no partiallity toward or against the Jews. This is false teaching to promote Catholism by another name. The Pope gave special attention to Israel and ordered for four crusades to obtain it.

Romans 10:11-13
11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[a] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Acts 10:34-35
34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY
He leaves a remnant, not all have rejected their Messiah.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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#31
Could you explain this above in more detail.
Evangelical Christians have a high opinion not just of the Jewish state but of Jews as people. That Jewish voters are overwhelmingly liberal doesn’t seem to bother evangelicals, despite their own conservative politics. Yet Jews don’t return the favor: in one Pew survey, 42 percent of Jewish respondents expressed hostility to evangelicals and fundamentalists.

The reason that conservative Christians—opposed to abortion and gay marriage and critical of political liberalism—can feel kindly toward Jewish liberals and support Israel so fervently is rooted in theology. One finds among fundamentalist Protestants a doctrine called dispensationalism. The dispensationalist outlook, which began in early-nineteenth-century England,
https://www.city-journal.org/html/why-don’t-jews-christians-who-them-13068.html
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
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#33
Put on the whole armor of God.
Paul in Ephesians 6 Paul clarifies that the battle is not against flesh and blood, but a spiritual battle against the evil spiritual forces. Paul then goes on to elaborate on the armor but it is apparent at this point that we are NOT to put on a literal suit of armor and do earthly battle. Instead we are to put on the armor of the Word and Faith and of the Spirit and do spiritual battle.
There are several defensive pieces of armor and only one offensive piece of armor - the sword. The sword comes last. I interpret this as being the last piece to use. Once you have the rest of the armor on you can then, and only then, go on the offensive.

In revelation 19 Jesus had a sword come out of his mouth. Normally a warrior would draw hiss sword come from his sheath, but Jesus has the sword coming out of his mouth - which is strange and needs to considered.
Since Jesus's Kingdom is not of this world, Then perhaps this sword from his mouth represents spiritual power and victory.
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." - Revelation 19:21

The sword from the mouth in Rev 19 also slays people. Revelation is a vision though, and could definitely be interpreted as a metaphor for spiritual power and victory based on other passages:

"(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." - Luke 2:35

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

On the other hand, we do see passages that speak of the sword in a seemingly physical way:

"For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." - Romans 13:4

It could be meant as a combination of physical and spiritual, but certainly the "way of the sword" could be interpreted to be completely spiritual.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#34
What do you mean their Messiah? He is my Messiah!!!

Please provide verse or verses on this remnant.
Jesus is both Messiah to Israel and the Gentile nations.

As for remnants-

Romans 11
New International Version

The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#35
Evangelical Christians have a high opinion not just of the Jewish state but of Jews as people. That Jewish voters are overwhelmingly liberal doesn’t seem to bother evangelicals, despite their own conservative politics. Yet Jews don’t return the favor: in one Pew survey, 42 percent of Jewish respondents expressed hostility to evangelicals and fundamentalists.

The reason that conservative Christians—opposed to abortion and gay marriage and critical of political liberalism—can feel kindly toward Jewish liberals and support Israel so fervently is rooted in theology. One finds among fundamentalist Protestants a doctrine called dispensationalism. The dispensationalist outlook, which began in early-nineteenth-century England,
https://www.city-journal.org/html/why-don’t-jews-christians-who-them-13068.html
God promised Abraham, the father of the Jews, that He would give to him and his descendants the land that currently makes up modern-day Israel (Genesis 15:18–21). God confirmed that promise to Abraham’s son Isaac and grandson Jacob, who was called “Israel” (Genesis 26:3; 28:13; 32:28). This promise has end times revelations.


Genesis 12:2-3
2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#36
No need for snarkiness with the mind reader comment.
Please share you thoughts then.

But yes, the flesh and the spirit are in conflict with each other.
There also was no need to intend a topic of separation of Church and State using a Title and OP that made no mention of either.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#37
Conquer the Land by the Sword.
Leviticus 26:7-8
7 You shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. 8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand, and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

David Takes Jerusalem by the Sword
1 Chronicles 11:1-6
4 And David and all Israel went to Jerusalem, that is, Jebus, where the Jebusites were, the inhabitants of the land. 5 The inhabitants of Jebus said to David, “You will not come in here.” Nevertheless, David took the stronghold of Zion, that is, the city of David. 6 David said, “Whoever strikes the Jebusites first shall be chief and commander.” And Joab the son of Zeruiah went up first, so he became chief.


Peter Goes the Way of the Sword, but He Is Corrected.
John 18:3-11
3 So Judas, having procured a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.”[a] Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 6 When Jesus[b] said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 So he asked them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. So, if you seek me, let these men go.” 9 This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken: “Of those whom you gave me I have lost not one.” 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

Jesus Takes Jerusalem Without Sword and Says, "No More of This!"
Luke 22:47-51
47 While he was still speaking, there came a crowd, and the man called Judas, one of the twelve, was leading them. He drew near to Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus said to him, “Judas, would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?” 49 And when those who were around him saw what would follow, they said, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus said, “No more of this!” And he touched his ear and healed him.

Jesus Conquers His Kingdom Not with the Sword
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”


Jesus Conquers His Kingdom with Love.
Matthew 5:43-44
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you


Luke 10:1-3
Jesus Sends Out His Disciples to Conquer with Plowshares
10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go. 2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. 3 Go your way; behold, I am sending you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.

Isaiah 2:2-5
Isaiah Foretells Jesus Will Conquer; That the Way of the Sword Will End
2 It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
3 and many peoples shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
and rebuke many people;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.
5 O house of Jacob,
come, let us walk
in the light of the Lord.
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭

yes the whole nature of the testament changed from this the sword

“Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭25:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To this

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭

The two covenants are contrary because they are for different purposes the sword is upon sinners , they live and die by the sword but Gods children go the way of peace and love , mercy forgiveness the covenant has went from a sword to a plowshare from sinners doomed to die to born again children of God who will live after death

One way is life the other can only bring death a sword is not needed in righteousness it’s what violent men use to fight against other violent men a work of the world is the sword a work of
Man

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:13‬ ‭

Gods way is before violence the law came after and the sword came from that state now we are being taken back to before the fall before sin so the sword belongs to the world
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#38
Jesus is both Messiah to Israel and the Gentile nations.

As for remnants-

Romans 11
New International Version

The Remnant of Israel
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
It is based on faith. Those seven thousand had faith in God and thus did not worship Baal. those seven thousand were a remnant based on their faith.

So sure there is a remnant in every generation, but that remnant must have faith in God, which is Jesus Christ. For Christ brings grace.

But what you are suggesting is different. You are suggesting that the ethnic Jew is a remnant regardless of faith. I say this is wrong.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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#39
It is based on faith. Those seven thousand had faith in God and thus did not worship Baal. those seven thousand were a remnant based on their faith.

So sure there is a remnant in every generation, but that remnant must have faith in God, which is Jesus Christ. For Christ brings grace.

But what you are suggesting is different. You are suggesting that the ethnic Jew is a remnant regardless of faith. I say this is wrong.
What you say I am suggesting was a presumption on your part.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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#40
Not according to Deuteronomy 4:40.
Compare these two verses.

Deuteronomy 4:40.
English Standard Version
Therefore you shall keep his statutes and his commandments, which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.”

Exodus 12:14
English Standard Version
“This day [Passover] shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.

The Passover is to be kept as a statute forever. However, Christians do not keep Passover. Or, do they? Actually, they do. Believing on Jesus Christ is how the statute of Passover is kept forever. And this faith comes from the Spirit that dwells in our hearts. Passover is kept spiritually, in our hearts.

Likewise the land is also no longer literal. The land is the church. You possess the land (you belong to the church) if you possess the Spirit and believe in your heart.