The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[jerusalem]

per the Lord's prayer and elsewhere. forgive and you will be forgiven to fail to forgive costs you your own forgiveness where scripture states that those who don't have the law meet the righteous requirements of the law this is key. forgiveness is an act of undeserved kindness done out of love God will judge outsiders that is not our job

 

[know1]

So in your estimation, this scripture is not true?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And by YOUR logic, the Devil does not exist because you have not seen him. For that matter have you ever seen God?

Still waiting for someone to give me a real testimony of some righteous or obedient act they did personally that caused them to keep their salvation.
Can you, sir?

 

[know1]

I forgot to mention the book of James, which many use to that we are justified by works and on the surface does seem contrary to Paul's writings. However, James is putting stamp that if you have placed your faith in cross, then your life or lifestyle will change to do the works of the Lord. For instance, if I say I believe and my faith is in the cross, yet I reveal in sin, I am a liar and God is not with me. Yet if I am true, I detest the things this world has to offer and delight in the things of God.

Now with that being said. A born again believer can slip in temptation and become bound. Whether by alcohol, drugs, pornography, racism, and so on.

Yet if we are not moved and lean on the cross and don't give up, we will be set free and Glory to God.

I mean no offense sir, but why does everyone, yourself included, associate the verses in James to salvation only? Does God do anything else other than save people?
James is talking about a different kind of work than Paul.
There is no contradiction in the bible like you said, but James is not talking about a life style that proves your salvation. It's about faith in God and His word to change an exiting situation.

 

[know1]

per the Lord's prayer and elsewhere. forgive and you will be forgiven to fail to forgive costs you your own forgiveness where scripture states that those who don't have the law meet the righteous requirements of the law this is key. forgiveness is an act of undeserved kindness done out of love God will judge outsiders that is not our job

Would you mind elaborating for me please? I don't know what you are saying here.

 

[know1]

Acts 13
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 5
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Corinthians 6
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

Galatians 2
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 5
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Looks like faith in the work of the cross to me and by His grace and nothing else.

Did you say the above statement in jest or were you serious? Because both works are in the scripture verses you gave.

 

[homwardbound]

I believe sir, this is a case of misunderstanding. Perhaps it is my doing.
I never said one loses their salvation when they sin, but receives punishment in the natural because of it. The whole purpose for this thread was to point out the differences of works. Some say that one loses their salvation when they don't obey God's commandments and use scripture, I believe, incorrectly to back up their doctrine.
I have said from the beginning that one does not lose their salvation when they are willfully disobedient or sin, but that there are consequences in the natural. What I was showing you in the above post via scripture was the consequences of sin or disobedience to God and that God is the one that sends the curse against that person. Again, this has nothing to do with the person's salvation if born of God, but has everything to do with the here and now.
God is love and He is merciful, but is it so difficult for you to believe that a loving God that will send millions of sinners to the lake of fire, to suffer day and night, for eternity, would not be a loving God if He punishes you in the natural for sins you committed? He didn't take away your salvation, thanks to Blood of Jesus, but He did take away His blessings in a small area or two of your life. The whole purpose of repentance is for forgiveness from God, so He can bless you in the natural once again. How did John the baptist prepare the way for the coming of the lord? It was to get people to repent of their doubt and of their sins so that they could receive the words of Jesus to be healed, delivered, blessed, saved,...etc. When one is born again, all past sins are pardoned. No wrath from God for sins done in the past. But, like all of us, you will fall and sin after the new birth. Those sins committed in the future are covered in the blood of Jesus, in that you keep you salvation, but it does not protect you from the judgement of God in the natural world. That's why God tells us to repent. It is so we can be forgiven so He can heal and/or deliver us from the curse He sent against us.
You asked me to show you where one is forgiven after they are born again?

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The above are just a few verses that show the need for one that is born again to repent of their sins or offenses against God to receive forgiveness from Him so He can make that person whole. Again, these are natural sicknesses and diseases that God heals you of, after you repent, in most cases.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



If you will notice the witnesses mentioned in verse 28, were people witnessing against the natural life of the accused, causing physical death, not spiritual. This is how God sees our sins and therefore sends judgment against us in the natural life. He does not condemn us to eternal punishment, that is where the blood of Jesus come in.
Do you understand what I am saying yet? There are two different judgments, one is eternal, the other temporal.

Thank you for your clarification, much appreciated, now I see this not as God doing this more as the way this world and universe is set up.
If one jumps out of an airplane, gravity takes control and one goes splat. Now God has added parachutes, God's grace, not for one to take advantage of to appreciate for God's kindness is meant to lead one to repentance.
As a man sows so shall he reap, God set up the world this way
homwardbound

 

[Kerry]

Did you say the above statement in jest or were you serious? Because both works are in the scripture verses you gave.

What work can you do to obtain salvation, sanctification, or justification. The work is a result of faith. Notice the emphasis on faith. How can you do good works without faith in the cross of Christ?

 

[homwardbound]

Still waiting for someone to give me a real testimony of some righteous or obedient act they did personally that caused them to keep their salvation.

There is none, if there were then the gift of God is void
If I give someone a gift, and they do not appreciate or react with thankfulness, or do what I think they should do, because I know it is best for them, and they don't.
If I take back the gift back, then it was never a gift was it. And I thank God that God is not a liar

 

[homwardbound]

per the Lord's prayer and elsewhere. forgive and you will be forgiven to fail to forgive costs you your own forgiveness where scripture states that those who don't have the law meet the righteous requirements of the law this is key. forgiveness is an act of undeserved kindness done out of love God will judge outsiders that is not our job

after cross, we love because we are loved and forgive because we are forgiven
Before one had to love to be loved and forgive to be forgiven

 

[loveme1]

There is none, if there were then the gift of God is void
If I give someone a gift, and they do not appreciate or react with thankfulness, or do what I think they should do, because I know it is best for them, and they don't.
If I take back the gift back, then it was never a gift was it. And I thank God that God is not a liar

Some will be blotted and some He will spue out of His mouth.

Some will be told to depart because of their iniquity.

GOD does not make void the Gracious gift only we can do that it seems.

Then again we are told that His reward is with Him to give each according to their works.. the right to the tree of life and to enter in to the gates of the city.

Blessed are they that do His Commandments.

i'm not sure you i or anyone else would be able to stand and state what you have written above homwardbound.

 

[homwardbound]

Some will be blotted and some He will spue out of His mouth.

Some will be told to depart because of their iniquity.

GOD does not make void the Gracious gift only we can do that it seems.

Then again we are told that His reward is with Him to give each according to their works.. the right to the tree of life and to enter in to the gates of the city.

Blessed are they that do His Commandments.

i'm not sure you i or anyone else would be able to stand and state what you have written above homwardbound.

I stand 100% by what I said about a gift, there are those that appreciate it and those that can care less and act as if they do, never were saved only faked it for there own gain.
I wonder about the religious leaders of Christ's day, hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!! exposed. Do you really think those that act as if they are better than the others really are. Prostitutes and tax collectors enter in before them, so please be careful and see the difference in works of flesh and works of God's Spirit. I think you do, just not sure by the way I see the writings you post
God by God's Mercy gave us, and it is up to us how we respond, not how we did this or that

Bottom line do you believe God love you? Do you think what you do after you believed and accepted this free gift, that God will throw you out, because you sinned again and again and again?
I here you also say my, your salvation is predicated on what I do, is this true? I just want to be clear, not interested in fighting at all rather growing in Love
Have you read the parable about the man that owed too much and pleaded for Mercy and the king gave him the Mercy he asked for?
Then that same man went out and took another one that owed him, and this other pleaded for Mercy, and the man that had received Mercy did not give Mercy to the other, and had him Jailed.
Now when the King found out about this Man not having Mercy, when he received Mercy, hmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what rightfully happened? And this is this way until the end.
Mercy has been granted through Christ at the cross and new life has been given to all those that believe that asked for the Mercy, knowing what they deserve. God has granted this as a free gift, and when one receives a free gift they will respond to it or they won't. But I think all that see this will respond to it in appreciation and those that do not do not believe to begin woth and so never were showed the depth of the Love of God
I do not know how to explain
The righteousness, peace and Joy, that come from God through Christ, by belief, and no self works, except that is what it took a lot of self works to figure out how to enter God's rest, and all along it was so easy that it is hard to see, and it was all by belief as Moses Believed, as Abraham believed, as all those that believe, see and receive. Today past tense all the riches and glory are in Christ. you know this yet you seem to add works to this and if works are added to a gift then it is no longer a gift
Romans 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.

 

[homwardbound]

Some will be blotted and some He will spue out of His mouth.

Some will be told to depart because of their iniquity.

GOD does not make void the Gracious gift only we can do that it seems.

Then again we are told that His reward is with Him to give each according to their works.. the right to the tree of life and to enter in to the gates of the city.

Blessed are they that do His Commandments.

i'm not sure you i or anyone else would be able to stand and state what you have written above homwardbound.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 3:10-15[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Only God's work through us the vessel will not ever burn up, only flesh works will, and yet we those that believe will go through un touched, those that believe, in the fire as was Midrach, Shadrach and a Abednego

So it all boils down to either one believes or they do not, regardless of whether they do works or not!!!!!
And now one needs to decide what works burn up and what ones do not?
hope to have now gotten clearer on what I have been trying to say about flesh works or Spirit works.
And how we can be deceived into thinking we are doing Spiritual works, by man's traditions and rules , heavy burdens they place on us just as what was back in the day of Christ being here in the flesh.
Nothing Is truly new under the sun, (SON) Ecclesiastes, a spiritual eye opener, and ear opener as well
God is opposite of this world and this world is opposite of God

 

[homwardbound]

Some will be blotted and some He will spue out of His mouth.

Some will be told to depart because of their iniquity.

GOD does not make void the Gracious gift only we can do that it seems.

Then again we are told that His reward is with Him to give each according to their works.. the right to the tree of life and to enter in to the gates of the city.

Blessed are they that do His Commandments.

i'm not sure you i or anyone else would be able to stand and state what you have written above homwardbound.

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Why do we go back to beggarly elements after receiving truth that it is all God and none of me? how easily I forget, how about you to? maybe

 

[loveme1]

Why do we go back to beggarly elements after receiving truth that it is all God and none of me? how easily I forget, how about you to? maybe

Revelation 3

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

We must not declare that it can not be taken back because it would mean it was not a gift.

We must take heed.

If the Almighty God does something then it is Righteous.

If we are blotted out for not holding fast and Repenting or being zealous then so be it who are we to declare anything?

 

[know1]

How can you do good works without faith in the cross of Christ?

That's simple. Do you know anyone that is not saved, has no faith in Christ or the cross, and doesn't do at least some of the things written below?
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Exo 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
Exo 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.


Thou shalt not, is just as much a work as thou shalt do. Some people that do not know Christ will give to the poor, or help someone they don't know and so on. These are good works, but not as a result of faith.

 

[know1]

Some will be blotted and some He will spue out of His mouth.

Some will be told to depart because of their iniquity.

GOD does not make void the Gracious gift only we can do that it seems.

Then again we are told that His reward is with Him to give each according to their works.. the right to the tree of life and to enter in to the gates of the city.

You are assuming that every writing that condemns a child of God in the bible has an eternal consequence. I believe this to be false. For example;
Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
This is God speaking to His children and it has nothing to do with eternal judgement, but judgement in the natural life, such as sickness or disease.
The ones God will tell to depart were never His children. They were wolves in sheep clothing.

 

[loveme1]

You are assuming that every writing that condemns a child of God in the bible has an eternal consequence. I believe this to be false. For example;
Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
This is God speaking to His children and it has nothing to do with eternal judgement, but judgement in the natural life, such as sickness or disease.
The ones God will tell to depart were never His children. They were wolves in sheep clothing.

Are you sure it is i doing the assuming?

 

[homwardbound]

Revelation 3



We must not declare that it can not be taken back because it would mean it was not a gift.

We must take heed.

If the Almighty God does something then it is Righteous.

If we are blotted out for not holding fast and Repenting or being zealous then so be it who are we to declare anything?

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I used to live like a refugee, not now not ever again, Why?
Because God is Faithful, even if I am not, it is not about being good or bad enough, it is about whether one believes God or not. And God knows who are his, who are the one's that believe.
I am sorry that you seem so worried as if God is a tyrant if you do not do your part? That is how it was in the First Testament, they could not do their part, and had to sacrifice over and over again, never having their consciences purged from sin
For the Law any Law could not bring salvation to anyone in trying to do it, because if you fail in one part you fail in it all.
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

By grace of God I am saved, and am thankful, and do not need to prove this to anyone for my Spirit testifies with the Holy Spirit of truth.
So anyone of us can believe whatever we want to, but if one is living like a refugee, than that one is in bondage and the truth has not set them free. Now to those that are trying so hard as you are, one day you will see it is all God and no one else
Many go by the verse below, and do not read the next verse right after it, that clears up the first verse posted whan it stands alone creates fear and the next takes away the fear
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Keep asking God for the truth that sets you free and you shall be free indeed

 

[homwardbound]

That's simple. Do you know anyone that is not saved, has no faith in Christ or the cross, and doesn't do at least some of the things written below?
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Exo 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
Exo 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.


Thou shalt not, is just as much a work as thou shalt do. Some people that do not know Christ will give to the poor, or help someone they don't know and so on. These are good works, but not as a result of faith.

Works of what kind? Spirit or flesh? Which one shows salvation? And which one is of self and which is of God?
And how is the only way God can be worshipped today?

 

[homwardbound]

Are you sure it is i doing the assuming?

Okay, so tell us what are the works that you do of? Flesh or the Spirit of God. What pleases God, flesh works or God works by God's Spirit?