Theology—beneficial or source of endless debating?

[Nehemiah6]

You never answered and I'm still curious why you picked a forum that clearly states as a matter of policy that Catholicism is heresy.

Perhaps to show us that free speech is very much alive!

The Catholic church called the Protestants heretics (as noted in the Council of Trent), and now evangelicals call Catholicism heresy (and rightly so). But some "evangelicals" have actually embraced the Catholic church! And Pope Francis has embraced Islam, so we have "Chrislam".

Unfortunately Roman Catholics are victims of their own church, and are kept in bondage by the pope and his prelates (while Pelosi laughably uses her brand of Catholicism to support the murder of infants!). One needs to see what exists in the third world to grasp the bondage of Catholics. But any Catholic who is truly converted has no choice except to leave that church behind and "come out from among them".

 

[randyk]

Not by nation, but by faith.

With all due respect, God promised Abraham *nations.* And I'm not going to contradict God! Paul called these promises an "eternal covenant."

Gen 12.1 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation.
17.3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

Rom 4.16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

So when it appeared Israel was lost as a people, generally, and also as a nation, it appeared God's promise to Abraham failed. But since the promise is by grace, God waits with patience until the rest of the world is evangelized. Then He will bring judgment to all the nations of the world and restore both Israel and all the nations called by His name.

 

[Jocund]

between me and you and your descendants

No wonder you are confused. You are reading from a heretical version of the Bible.

This says to Abraham and his "seed". See the Hebrew source script and see Galatians 3:16.

to all Abraham’s offspring

This again says "seed" and those who are counted for the seed are counted by faith only, not by flesh. See Romans 9:8.

will make you into a great nation.

Do you reject the position that this great nation promised is Christian?

God promised Abraham *nations

Scripture shows us a promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations, not that each of those fathered nations would be recipients of the promises. The promise is not to all descendants, only to Christ as the seed, and by extension those in Christ.

restore both Israel and all the nations called by His

Not all of the children of Israel will be saved. And not all of Israel are Israel. Not all that call themselves Jews are Jews.

I don't think it's your fault that you have been misled. You clearly are drawing from a tainted version of the Bible that is likely tilted towards the heretical dispensationalism positions. I suggest throwing out the version of the Bible that you are using. In fact, I would go so far to say that you should throw out any version of the Bible that pluralizes "seed"/"offspring"/""descendant" in Gen 12:7.

You have been suckered into an incorrect understanding. You could be the most intelligent person in the world but given the wrong information, you're going to come to wrong conclusions.

The first place to fix this is by finding a non-heretical version of the Bible.

 

[Jocund]

Whats wrong with the old?

2 Cor 3:14-15

 

[Jocund]

Christianity started in the 1st century, not the 4th or the 16th. Catholicism is false Christianity, a corruption of true Christianity. I know you've been indoctrinated to think Catholicism is the "one true church," but you've been deceived and now you go around trying to deceive others.

You have missed his point.

 

[pottersclay]

Israel worshippers that refuse to see the Value of the Sacrifice of Christ

Oh so the blindness that JESUS spoke of because they did not know the time of their visitation is no effect?

 

[Jocund]

Oh so the blindness that JESUS spoke of because they did not know the time of their visitation is no effect?

The blindness would certainly apply to the Saul/Pauls of the world, but not to every descendant of Israel. Not all of Israel are Israel. Not all that call themselves Jews are Jews.

Do you disagree?

 

[Magenta]

Hi Magenta. Well, if we're going to discuss what the Scripture says about Mary, a good place to begin is Rev 12:1.

"12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" (Rev 12:1)

12:5 says this Woman is the Mother of Christ (the Son born to rule all nations). Who is the Mother of Christ? Plainly Mary.

Not plainly Mary. Unfortunately this is just one of a number of deceptions perpetrated by the RCC.

Why did God give her a Crown? He gives the answer 10 chapters earlier: "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

All believers will receive the crown of life. Nothing special about Mary. In fact. Jesus rebuked those who tried to elevate her. In fact, Jesus asked, who was His mother? In fact, Jesus said we, believers, were His mother - to contradict anyone saying Mary was His mother.

Recall that Mary stood faithfully at the foot of the Cross (Jn 19:25), when all His Apostles had fled (Mk 14:50).

Do you deliberately twist and distort Scripture? You say He was deserted at the cross but cite His arrest scene as if that proves your point. In so doing you also pretend John was not there at the cross when plainly he was. Another denial of what Scripture plainly states. In fact it was while turning Mary over to the care of John as He was dying that Jesus is the one and only time recorded as addressing Mary as "Mother." It is doubtful He was addressing her as His mother. It was more an indication of, mother, here is your son. Son, here is your mother.

And yet if even they who forsook and fled were promised a reward in Heaven (Mat 19:28), how much more will Mary, who was steadfastly faithful to her divine Son, have a greater reward for her fidelity? All of the Apostles who fled sinned that day on Calvary (though John returned),

Another fabrication. Scripture says no such thing. And you deny what Scripture states. 49 But all those who knew Jesus, including the women who had followed Him from Galilee, stood at a distance watching these things.

Regarding the other things,

Keep your heresies and fantasies about Mary to yourself. Better yet, take them to God so He may expunge them from you.

 

[randyk]

No wonder you are confused. You are reading from a heretical version of the Bible.

This says to Abraham and his "seed". See the Hebrew source script and see Galatians 3:16.

No, this is not a heretical version of the Bible. That is how it reads. You are not a better scholar than the translators of the many translations.

This again says "seed" and those who are counted for the seed are counted by faith only, not by flesh. See Romans 9:8.

Paul is using "seed" as an *allusion* to Christ, in much the same way that Joseph was an *allusion* to Christ. The literal "seed" of Abraham was Isaac and his progeny. Collectively, this group, defined by "faith," represented "Christ." That is, they are all children defined as God's children through faith in Christ's work of redemption.

Do you reject the position that this great nation promised is Christian?

Yes, I reject Replacement Theology which effectively replaces the nation Israel with the international Church. It is common to think of the Church as nation-less. But in reality, the Church includes many nations, even if it is not nationality that exclusively determines ownership by Christ. There must be nationalities and people of faith, regardless of their nationality. There must be nationality because God promises it. And there must be faith because faith in Christ is the basis of our restoration to God's progeny.

Scripture shows us a promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations, not that each of those fathered nations would be recipients of the promises. The promise is not to all descendants, only to Christ as the seed, and by extension those in Christ.

I would never say that nationality alone determines sonship of God. But nationalities clearly is required in the promises of God. And so, there will be sonship through faith in Christ, but there must be many ethnicities and nationalities, as well. God has clearly promised this.

Not all of the children of Israel will be saved. And not all of Israel are Israel. Not all that call themselves Jews are Jews.

Universal Salvation of the Jewish People is not the issue. Only those who have faith in Christ will be saved in Israel.

The point is, there *must* be an Israel in which people of faith ultimately dominate the nation. Christianity must eventually rule among the Jewish People in the nation of Israel.

I don't think it's your fault that you have been misled. You clearly are drawing from a tainted version of the Bible that is likely tilted towards the heretical dispensationalism positions. I suggest throwing out the version of the Bible that you are using. In fact, I would go so far to say that you should throw out any version of the Bible that pluralizes "seed"/"offspring"/""descendant" in Gen 12:7.

I don't think you understand how Paul is using the term "seed." He is not de-literalizing the sense of Abraham's biological progeny. Rather, he is indicating how it represents a collective of faith in the one Christ.

You have been suckered into an incorrect understanding. You could be the most intelligent person in the world but given the wrong information, you're going to come to wrong conclusions.

The first place to fix this is by finding a non-heretical version of the Bible.

The Bible translators knew what they were doing. Interpretations are something different.

 

[ResidentAlien]

You have missed his point.

Catholics talk in circles most of the time anyway so maybe I did.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Pope Francis worships baby Jesus idol

 

[Grandpa]

Yeah your right i have to stop making scripture to fit me.


Deuteronomy 7:6-9 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Lets start here .....what am i missing?

The full picture.

You are reading into scripture what you wish it says.

I can't change your wishes. Not even with scripture.

 

[Grandpa]

Hi Magenta. Well, if we're going to discuss what the Scripture says about Mary, a good place to begin is Rev 12:1.

"12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" (Rev 12:1)

12:5 says this Woman is the Mother of Christ (the Son born to rule all nations). Who is the Mother of Christ? Plainly Mary.

Why did God give her a Crown? He gives the answer 10 chapters earlier: "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Recall that Mary stood faithfully at the foot of the Cross (Jn 19:25), when all His Apostles had fled (Mk 14:50). And yet if even they who forsook and fled were promised a reward in Heaven (Mat 19:28), how much more will Mary, who was steadfastly faithful to her divine Son, have a greater reward for her fidelity? All of the Apostles who fled sinned that day on Calvary (though John returned), but Mary did not. She remained faithful to her Son and God. That explains why the Bible says she received a crown from her Son with 12 stars in Heaven.

Regarding the other things, there's a difference Mediation and Intercession. Christ is the only Mediator, but all believers can be intercessors.

1 Tim 2:1 "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people"

Is there a verse that says even the Saints in Heaven are intercessors who offer prayers to God for us? Yes.

Rev 5:8 "Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

And then the Deuterocanonical books (the 7 books removed in Protestant Bibles/retained in Catholic Bibles) provide further support.

Bar 3:4 “O Lord Almighty, thou God of Israel, hear now the prayers of the dead Israelites, and of their children" Taken from: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Baruch-3-4/ All these are Scriptural reasons to believe those who go to Heaven pray for us.

Strictly speaking, we Pray only to God/Jesus. But we do ask others to pray for us. If you ask a Pastor to pray for you, are you praying to him? So there is a difference between praying to someone and asking that someone to pray for you. We do the latter with the Saints.



You mean, Catholics and Protestants/Catholics and Evangelicals. Catholics are Christians. If Catholics aren't Christians, then Christianity began in the 16th Century, with Martin Luther, not in the 1st Century, with Jesus Christ. Want to maintain that? I hope not.

In Christ,
Xavier.

Is this the Complete Narcissists Guide to reading Scripture???

Nope. Just the way the RCC interprets it...

 

[DavidTree]

Perhaps to show us that free speech is very much alive!

The Catholic church called the Protestants heretics (as noted in the Council of Trent), and now evangelicals call Catholicism heresy (and rightly so). But some "evangelicals" have actually embraced the Catholic church! And Pope Francis has embraced Islam, so we have "Chrislam".

Unfortunately Roman Catholics are victims of their own church, and are kept in bondage by the pope and his prelates (while Pelosi laughably uses her brand of Catholicism to support the murder of infants!). One needs to see what exists in the third world to grasp the bondage of Catholics. But any Catholic who is truly converted has no choice except to leave that church behind and "come out from among them".

i learned something new today - "chrislam"
ty

 

[DavidTree]

Hi Magenta. Well, if we're going to discuss what the Scripture says about Mary, a good place to begin is Rev 12:1.

"12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:" (Rev 12:1)

12:5 says this Woman is the Mother of Christ (the Son born to rule all nations). Who is the Mother of Christ? Plainly Mary.

Why did God give her a Crown? He gives the answer 10 chapters earlier: "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Recall that Mary stood faithfully at the foot of the Cross (Jn 19:25), when all His Apostles had fled (Mk 14:50). And yet if even they who forsook and fled were promised a reward in Heaven (Mat 19:28), how much more will Mary, who was steadfastly faithful to her divine Son, have a greater reward for her fidelity? All of the Apostles who fled sinned that day on Calvary (though John returned), but Mary did not. She remained faithful to her Son and God. That explains why the Bible says she received a crown from her Son with 12 stars in Heaven.

Regarding the other things, there's a difference Mediation and Intercession. Christ is the only Mediator, but all believers can be intercessors.

1 Tim 2:1 "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people"

Is there a verse that says even the Saints in Heaven are intercessors who offer prayers to God for us? Yes.

Rev 5:8 "Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

And then the Deuterocanonical books (the 7 books removed in Protestant Bibles/retained in Catholic Bibles) provide further support.

Bar 3:4 “O Lord Almighty, thou God of Israel, hear now the prayers of the dead Israelites, and of their children" Taken from: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Baruch-3-4/ All these are Scriptural reasons to believe those who go to Heaven pray for us.

Strictly speaking, we Pray only to God/Jesus. But we do ask others to pray for us. If you ask a Pastor to pray for you, are you praying to him? So there is a difference between praying to someone and asking that someone to pray for you. We do the latter with the Saints.



You mean, Catholics and Protestants/Catholics and Evangelicals. Catholics are Christians. If Catholics aren't Christians, then Christianity began in the 16th Century, with Martin Luther, not in the 1st Century, with Jesus Christ. Want to maintain that? I hope not.

In Christ,
Xavier.

Good Morning Xavier,

As one who is saved by Grace, i do not judge you for only the LORD knows your heart.
As a former RCC member i encourage you to place your complete trust in the WORD alone = the WORD that became Flesh.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:15-18

The LORD Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is all you need to be Alive unto God.
There is no protection or sanctification in RCC or any place that does not exalt Christ above all, people and things of this earth and saints/things in heaven.

The Popes and the entire mechanism of RCC exalts itself above the WORD.

Today, read Colossians chapter 1 and pray and worship to the LORD Jesus Christ.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

I just prefer to listen to what the Holy Spirit tells me. I don't need any human being to teach me anything about God's ways. I find most debates in theology to be meaningless discussions that for many just seem to be an opportunity for them to show off their supposed knowledge in the ways of our God. These people are often argumentative and not edifying or beneficial to anyone, including themselves.

 

[Magenta]

i learned something new today - "chrislam"
ty

Syncretism at its worst?

I met Chrislamists before Francis became pope...

 

[DavidTree]

Syncretism at its worst?

I met Chrislamists before Francis became pope...

Good Morning,

imho, combining Catholicism with Islam would produce the most religious murderous agenda ever seen.

What could be added to make them a TRIfecta?

Maybe a otherworldly leader???

 

[ResidentAlien]

Good Morning,

imho, combining Catholicism with Islam would produce the most religious murderous agenda ever seen.

What could be added to make them a TRIfecta?

Maybe a otherworldly leader???

Catholicism has had an agenda since Vatican II—if not to unite Islam with Catholicism—to at least welcome Muslims (and others) as brothers and sisters:

"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."​

​

"The Church, therefore, urges her sons to enter with prudence and charity into discussion and collaboration with members of other religions. Let Christians, while witnessing to their own faith and way of life, acknowledge, preserve and encourage the spiritual and moral truths found among non-Christians, also their social life and culture."​

What we see here is nothing less than a complete corruption of the truths of Christianity. What this does essentially is to extend the right hand of fellowship to anyone who acknowledges the Creator.

1) According to Vatican II, the "plan of salvation" now includes everyone and anyone. It says that even though Muslims reject Jesus as the Son of God they still see Him as a prophet and apparently this is enough for them to join the club.

2) Under this arrangement, Catholicism is essentially putting themselves on the same plane with every other false religion. At least they're willing to admit it.

3) Catholics are now encouraged to enter not only into fellowship, but collaboration, with other religions. This no doubt includes Protestants and every other group or person who acknowledges the Creator. Did someone say ecumenism? The goal of this is painfully obvious—to spread Catholicism under the guise of false unity and fellowship.

See here. There's a long list of other agenda items: https://www.usccb.org/committees/ec...rs/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-islam

"Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."—2 John 1:9-11

In other words, when a person enters into collaboration with those who bring false doctrine, you yourself share in their evil.

 

[Beckie]

Oh so the blindness that JESUS spoke of because they did not know the time of their visitation is no effect?

Not seeing /understanding your connection. More info please?