There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[Arwen4CJ]

But the scripture doesn't say it's a different glory. Also is says "one in us" as in we are sharing with christ and God. It says that we all need to be one the same way Christ and God are one, and then says that we need to be one with them as well. With the trinity it is saying that we must all be one entity like God and Jesus as well as the same entity as these 2.

This is the problem with isolating one passage of Scripture and building a doctrine around it. No, we do not become part of God. We have not eternally existed since before the world began. We cannot become deity. I understand how people are misreading it to mean that. But if this really was what was meant in this passage, this teaching would be repeated.

It must then be talking about the unity of those who are in the faith. We can never be part of God's being and essence. However, we can have a unity in the faith, as believers.

This passage from John 17 is not the best to show the Trinity, since people misuse it.

 

[zone]

Strange, I don't see the "Jesus faith group" listed.

Jhn 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Now we have to ask, did Jesus ascend to himself? Was he, in fact, his own God? Was he lying?

Who is God in this verse? Was it Jesus, or was it his Father?

Which is it?

God became a Man.

John 17
4"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

this is pretty simple:

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2He was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made < the deathknell of Arianism.

14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

18No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

apaugasma: radiance
Original Word: ἀπαύγασμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: apaugasma
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ow'-gas-mah)
Short Definition: a light flashing forth, radiation, gleam
Definition: a light flashing forth (from), radiation, gleam.

541 apaúgasma (from 575 /apó, "from" which intensifies 826 /augázō, "shine," derived from augē/"dawn") – properly, someone who literally "shines," (is radiant). 541 (apaúgasma) is only used in Heb 1:3 where it refers to Christ's eternal radiance – supremely reflecting the effulgent glory of the Godhead

5481 xaraktḗr – properly, an engraving; (figuratively) an exact impression (likeness) which also reflects inner character.

[5481 /xaraktḗr was originally a tool (used for engraving) and then came to mean "a die" ("mould"). Finally it stood for a stamp or impress used on a coin or seal (see H, 368). In each case, the stamp conveyed the reality behind the image.]

The Greek fathers (ad 100 -500) used 5481 /xaraktḗr ("the ultimate radiance") of the supreme effulgence of Christ, showing forth His glory as the second Person of the eternal Godhead (Heb 1:3).

 

[krow]

[h=1]Psalm 110 (New International Version)[/h]
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Add parallel[h=3]Psalm 110[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[h=3]Psalm 110[/h][h=4]Of David. A psalm.[/h][SUP]1 [/SUP]The Lord says to my lord:[SUP][a][/SUP]

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]4 [/SUP]The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]The Lord is at your right hand[SUP][c][/SUP];
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He will drink from a brook along the way,[SUP][d][/SUP]
and so he will lift his head high.

Interesting passage there.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Re: Study up...

It's the idea of representation. If the queen sent me a letter through a courier to come to her, I could say that the courier told me it, or I could say the queen told me it. The courier physically did it, but the courier is simply carrying the queens name. It's it is one invitation, but obviously the courier isn't really the queen, she just used him to do her will.

Okay -- let me try to make this clearer then --
Isaiah 45:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Who is speaking there? Using your queen/courier example -- who is speaking here?

 

[Gjolll]

...the second Person of the eternal Godhead (Heb 1:3).

Who said God was a person?

 

[zone]

Who said God was a person?

don't use the word person then.
you still have a Triune Godhead.

 

[krow]

Also...

[h=3]Psalm 2[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[h=3]Psalm 2[/h][SUP]1 [/SUP]Why do the nations conspire[SUP][a][/SUP]
and the peoples plot in vain?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.”

[SUP]4 [/SUP]The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.”

[SUP]7 [/SUP]I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You will break them with a rod of iron[SUP][b][/SUP];
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

There is none at all, actually.

I'm not sure if you followed my series of questions....so let me post them all together:

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB, but feel free to look it up in whatever translation you prefer)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Isaiah 43:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And I am God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Even [SUP][a][/SUP]from eternity I am He,
And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
I act and who can reverse it?”


New passage I haven't posted in this thread yet, but this is where I was going with the two previous passages:
John 10:22-30 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; [SUP]23 [/SUP]it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long [SUP][b][/SUP]will You keep us in suspense? If You are [SUP][c][/SUP]the Christ, tell us plainly.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; [SUP]28 [/SUP]and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. [SUP]29 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I and the Father are [SUP][e][/SUP]one.”

 

[krow]

The KJV is so poetic but we don't speak like this anymore.

2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

 

[Gjolll]

God became a man.

The Logos became a man when he left the throne of God. God cannot became a man without resigning the throne of God.

The fundamental Trinitarian problem lies in the problem that it cannot conceive that Jesus the man was less than God the Father. It cannot conceive of the godhead in terms of Christ being subordinate to the Father. The Trinity is per-execllence a trinity of "equal Gods" based on the humanistic notion of equality of persons. This is just nonsense.

Arianism was actually formulated by Trinitarians who insisted that the Word was begotten of God, before he ever became Jesus. Before Trinitarianism, Arianism did not exist.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Who said God was a person?

So you think God is an impersonal force that cannot interact with anyone?

 

[LovePink]

I agree he was alone, and I think you are going to John 1 with God being the word and Jesus being the word made flesh.

Thank you, no I was not going into John 1.

Are you a creationist? If so, what does that mean for you... in other words, are you a literalist in addition to. Thank you, please answer.

 

[zone]

The Logos became a man when he left the throne of God. God cannot became a man without resigning the throne of God.

The fundamental Trinitarian problem lies in the problem that it cannot conceive that Jesus the man was less than God the Father. It cannot conceive of the godhead in terms of Christ being subordinate to the Father. The Trinity is per-execllence a trinity of "equal Gods" based on the humanistic notion of equality of persons. This is just nonsense.

Arianism was actually formulated by Trinitarians who insisted that the Word was begotten of God, before he ever became Jesus. Before Trinitarianism, Arianism did not exist.

i don't care how you wrestle with this

AND THE LOGOS WAS GOD.

logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Original Word: λόγος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.

3056 lógos (from 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.

[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, "communication-speech"). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words."]

...

now answer this, o man:

Isaiah 40:13
Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor?

Romans 11:34
"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"

answer - not you or any created being.

.....

btw
is the Holy Spirit less than God the Father?

 

[Arwen4CJ]

The Logos became a man when he left the throne of God. God cannot became a man without resigning the throne of God.

The fundamental Trinitarian problem lies in the problem that it cannot conceive that Jesus the man was less than God the Father. It cannot conceive of the godhead in terms of Christ being subordinate to the Father. The Trinity is per-execllence a trinity of "equal Gods" based on the humanistic notion of equality of persons. This is just nonsense.

Arianism was actually formulated by Trinitarians who insisted that the Word was begotten of God, before he ever became Jesus. Before Trinitarianism, Arianism did not exist.

You are not listening to what we keep saying. We don't believe in three gods; we believe in one God.

 

[krow]

Sorry forgot to use the quote function.

 

[tucksma]

Re: Study up...

Okay -- let me try to make this clearer then --
Isaiah 45:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Who is speaking there? Using your queen/courier example -- who is speaking here?

Yahweh............ (sorry don't like the dots cuz of how they come off very sarcastic, I needed 10 characters to send it haha)

 

[zone]

The fundamental Trinitarian problem lies in the problem that it cannot conceive that Jesus the man was less than God the Father.

ha?
who says Jesus (LOGOS/GOD) the Man did not humble Himself to made for a little while lower than the angels...all the way down to sinful humanity?

anyway...any sunday school kid knows the Jews called for the death of Christ because:

John 5
17But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." 18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 10:33
"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 19:7
The Jewish leaders insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

 

[tucksma]

You are not listening to what we keep saying. We don't believe in three gods; we believe in one God.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I am learning that what I thought was the trinity is not, I still disagree, but I'm learning better to what I disagree with.


The trinity is basically the idea that God is not just Yahweh, but all three. God cannot be God without all three. All three are Separate to some extent, but combine not literally but i guess by title, to form what we call God. Yes? God the father is not God, God the spirit is Not God, and Jesus is not God, but all three together as one in title is God. Yes?

 

[tucksma]

Thank you, no I was not going into John 1.

Are you a creationist? If so, what does that mean for you... in other words, are you a literalist in addition to. Thank you, please answer.

I believe God created me, using the angels. Does that answer your question (I'm not sure EXACTLY what you are asking so sorry if I'm misanswering)

 

[tucksma]

So you think God is an impersonal force that cannot interact with anyone?

Saying God is not a person doesn't make him impersonal. Dogs are not people but they interact with people.