There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
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A
Job 38:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you [SUP][a][/SUP]have understanding,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
Isaiah 51:12-13 (NASB)[SUP]12 [/SUP]“I, even I, am He who comforts you.
Who are you that you are afraid of man who dies
And of the son of man who is made like grass,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]That you have forgotten the LORD your Maker,
Who stretched out the heavens
And laid the foundations of the earth,
That you fear continually all day long because of the fury of the oppressor,
As he makes ready to destroy?
But where is the fury of the oppressor?
In regard to angels vs. Jesus:
Hebrews 1:1-12 (NASB)1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]in these last days has spoken to us [SUP][b][/SUP]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [SUP][c][/SUP]world.[SUP]3 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [SUP][e][/SUP]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [SUP]4 [/SUP]having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again,
“I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And [SUP][f][/SUP]when He again brings the firstborn into [SUP][g][/SUP]the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And of the angels He says,
“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][h][/SUP]His kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you [SUP][a][/SUP]have understanding,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
Isaiah 51:12-13 (NASB)[SUP]12 [/SUP]“I, even I, am He who comforts you.
Who are you that you are afraid of man who dies
And of the son of man who is made like grass,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]That you have forgotten the LORD your Maker,
Who stretched out the heavens
And laid the foundations of the earth,
That you fear continually all day long because of the fury of the oppressor,
As he makes ready to destroy?
But where is the fury of the oppressor?
In regard to angels vs. Jesus:
Hebrews 1:1-12 (NASB)1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]in these last days has spoken to us [SUP][b][/SUP]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [SUP][c][/SUP]world.[SUP]3 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [SUP][e][/SUP]upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [SUP]4 [/SUP]having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again,
“I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And [SUP][f][/SUP]when He again brings the firstborn into [SUP][g][/SUP]the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And of the angels He says,
“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][h][/SUP]His kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”
T
I can't tell you what is "the line" of righteous vs unrighteous. Only Jesus knows that. I know it involves what you believe, your faith, how you live, your fruit, and i'm sure some other stuff. All these are taken into consideration as well as the fact that you can be forgiven for your sins. There isn't a literal line in the idea of you have to do xyz and you are righteous, but Jesus does judge which you are.
I know I am coming into this thread real late, but I would like to challenge everyone to debate Matthew 3:16-17, if you can! To me this is a grade A scripture for knowing the nature of the Godhead. The first thing that happened when Jesus started his ministry was to go to the river Jordan and be baptized by John the Baptist. At this time the nature of the Godhead was fully declared as Jesus(1) came up out of the water (standing on the earth) and God, his Father(2) (spoke from heaven) for all to hear that he was pleased with what his Son was doing and to listen to him. And finally, the Holy ghost(3) (being between God in heaven and Jesus on the earth), came down from where the Father was and eventually settled on Jesus.
So there it is, straight-forward, no necessity for interpretation, all could see and hear and understand. All can read and feel the Holy Ghost and understand. That is what a grade A scripture is, one that everyone can agree with.
This scripture is plain and simple. Jesus on the earth separate from God, his Father in the heavens, separate from Jesus, the Holy Ghost in between them, separate from Jesus and God. So where is the debate? Three separate and distinct personages confirmed by scripture that if you asked an 8 year old to draw would confirm the nature easily. They are the Trinity, but they are certainly not one God, they are 3 and they make up the Godhead. In order for God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost to show that they were one God, Jesus would have come up out of the river and then God would have spoken through the mouth of Jesus and said, this is my Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him, and the Holy Ghost would have been there too, and not come down and settled on Jesus as the scripture says. So the whole scripture needs to be rewritten to disclose the nature of the Trinity God.
Now any other scripture that you use to help understand your position, must pass by Matthew 3:16-17 because it is so clear, there is no debate. Not many scriptures are so straight-forward as to be foundational to a doctrine without debate.
So I love the thread and I love the debate, but now focus on Matthew 3:16-17 and let me know how you feel.
So there it is, straight-forward, no necessity for interpretation, all could see and hear and understand. All can read and feel the Holy Ghost and understand. That is what a grade A scripture is, one that everyone can agree with.
This scripture is plain and simple. Jesus on the earth separate from God, his Father in the heavens, separate from Jesus, the Holy Ghost in between them, separate from Jesus and God. So where is the debate? Three separate and distinct personages confirmed by scripture that if you asked an 8 year old to draw would confirm the nature easily. They are the Trinity, but they are certainly not one God, they are 3 and they make up the Godhead. In order for God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost to show that they were one God, Jesus would have come up out of the river and then God would have spoken through the mouth of Jesus and said, this is my Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him, and the Holy Ghost would have been there too, and not come down and settled on Jesus as the scripture says. So the whole scripture needs to be rewritten to disclose the nature of the Trinity God.
Now any other scripture that you use to help understand your position, must pass by Matthew 3:16-17 because it is so clear, there is no debate. Not many scriptures are so straight-forward as to be foundational to a doctrine without debate.
So I love the thread and I love the debate, but now focus on Matthew 3:16-17 and let me know how you feel.
A
I once heard someone say that Jesus is God's revelation to humanity, and that whenever God interacted with people in the OT, it was actually the Word (Jesus). Although this cannot be proven for sure in Scripture, it is something interesting to think about, and it could help explain the issues that you and Bowman are discussing.