There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
#1,141
#1,141
tucksma said:
I can't tell you what is "the line" of righteous vs unrighteous. Only Jesus knows that. I know it involves what you believe, your faith, how you live, your fruit, and i'm sure some other stuff. All these are taken into consideration as well as the fact that you can be forgiven for your sins. There isn't a literal line in the idea of you have to do xyz and you are righteous, but Jesus does judge which you are.
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How do you believe a person gets their sins forgiven?
 
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tucksma

Guest
#1,142
#1,142
I am....what part of what I am saying doesn't work with that?
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#1,144
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
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#1,144
The concept of the Biblical Trinity can be visualized by the Trinity Shield.

There are twelve possible deity combinations as thus.


  • The Father is God(2 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.3, John 17.3; 1 Cor. 8.6; 1 Peter 1.3)
  • God is the Father (2 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.3, John 17.3; 1 Cor. 8.6; 1 Peter 1.3)
  • The Son is God(Titus 2.13; 2 Peter 1.1; John 1.3, 1 Cor. 8.6; Col 1.16-17; Heb. 1.2; Rev. 3.14; Heb. 1.10-12; 13.8; John 1.1; 8.58; 17.5; Col. 1.17; Heb. 1.2; John 16.30; Matt. 18.20; 28.20; John 3.13; Eph. 1.23; 4.10; Col. 3.11)
  • God is the Son (Titus 2.13; 2 Peter 1.1; John 1.3, 1 Cor. 8.6; Col 1.16-17; Heb. 1.2; Rev. 3.14; Heb. 1.10-12; 13.8; John 1.1; 8.58; 17.5; Col. 1.17; Heb. 1.2; John 16.30; Matt. 18.20; 28.20; John 3.13; Eph. 1.23; 4.10; Col. 3.11)
  • The Spirit is God(Acts 5.3-4, Cor 3.17-18, Gen. 1.2; Psa. 104.30, Matt. 1.18,20; Luke 1.35; Rom. 1.4; 8.11; Heb. 9.14; 1 Cor. 2.10-11; Psa. 139.7; Rom. 8.1-27)
  • God is the Spirit(Acts 5.3-4, Cor 3.17-18, Gen. 1.2; Psa. 104.30, Matt. 1.18,20; Luke 1.35; Rom. 1.4; 8.11; Heb. 9.14; 1 Cor. 2.10-11; Psa. 139.7; Rom. 8.1-27)
  • The Father is not the Son(John 3.17, 35; 5.22-23, 31-32; 8.16-18; 11.41-42; 12.28; 14.31; 17.1-26; Rom. 1.7; 1 Cor. 1.3; 15.24-28; 2 Cor. 1.2; Gal. 1.3; 4.4; Eph. 1.2; 6.23; Phil. 1.2; 1 Thess. 1.1; 2 Thess. 1.1-2; 1 Tim. 1.1-2; 2 Tim. 1.2; Tit. 1.4; Phm. 3; James 1.1; 2 Pet. 1.2; 1 John 4.10; 2 John 3)
  • The Son is not the Father(John 3.17, 35; 5.22-23, 31-32; 8.16-18; 11.41-42; 12.28; 14.31; 17.1-26; Rom. 1.7; 1 Cor. 1.3; 15.24-28; 2 Cor. 1.2; Gal. 1.3; 4.4; Eph. 1.2; 6.23; Phil. 1.2; 1 Thess. 1.1; 2 Thess. 1.1-2; 1 Tim. 1.1-2; 2 Tim. 1.2; Tit. 1.4; Phm. 3; James 1.1; 2 Pet. 1.2; 1 John 4.10; 2 John 3)
  • The Son is not the Spirit(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26, 16.7)
  • The Spirit is not the Son (Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26, 16.7)
  • The Spirit is not the Father(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26; Romans 8.26-27; Luke 3.21-22)
  • The Father is not the Spirit(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26; Romans 8.26-27; Luke 3.21-22)
 
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tucksma

Guest
#1,145
#1,145
Bowman said:
Yes, it does.
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John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Jesus is talking here. He clearly says the father is greater than him. He doesn't say temporarily, in fact while saying this he is also talking about how he is going to go to heaven. By definition of the trinity, when he goes to heaven they will be equal, but this verse states otherwise.
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#1,146
Nov 19, 2012
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#1,146
tucksma said:
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Jesus is talking here. He clearly says the father is greater than him. He doesn't say temporarily, in fact while saying this he is also talking about how he is going to go to heaven. By definition of the trinity, when he goes to heaven they will be equal, but this verse states otherwise.
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Why do you quote English Trinitarian-rendered scripture, for your position, if you deny The Trinity?
 
A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
#1,148
#1,148
tucksma said:
I've literally gone into this SO many times. God manifestation. Look through this to get an explanation of what it is.
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There were several reasons that I highlighted the parts that I did in my quoting of Job 38:3-5, Isaiah 51:12-13, and Hebrews 1:1-12.

I selected these specific passages because they show that it is God (Yahweh) who laid the foundation for the world (in other words created the world). There are other verses that show this as well. Yahweh never acknowledges the angels as being co-creators.

The reason I quoted from Hebrews chapter 1 was to show that God said Jesus was above the angels, that Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature, and that He upholds all things through the power of His word.

In verse 6, it says, "“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

How could the angels worship the Son unless the Son is God?

Furthermore, starting in verse 8:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][h][/SUP]His kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

The God calls Jesus God. Since Yahweh recognizes no other gods, and declares over and over and over again that He is the only God, that must mean that Jesus is Yahweh as well. It also states here that Jesus participated in the act of creation.

Look at verses 10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

Not only does it have God calling the Son God, and doing the creation, but God also calls Jesus eternal. These verses can only apply to someone who is God.
 
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tucksma

Guest
#1,149
#1,149
Looking through a lot of the verses on God is the Son, and so far see no proof that they are one. I have decided I'm done this debate though, because I have clearly demonstrated how the trinity is false. you STILL have not explained John 17. Or have shown proof Jesus is God. Either way we will both never agree on this unless someone shows me a verse that says all three are one (which you can't it doesnt exist).
God bless and I hope one day you do find truth.
I look foward to our next debate! You did teach me a lot! You taught me what the trinity really is, confirmed my faith that it isn't real, have bettered my on hand scriptural knowledge, and gave me a few new things to study! In all honesty thanks, I still disagree, but thanks!
 
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tucksma

Guest
#1,150
#1,150
Arwen4CJ said:
There were several reasons that I highlighted the parts that I did in my quoting of Job 38:3-5, Isaiah 51:12-13, and Hebrews 1:1-12.

I selected these specific passages because they show that it is God (Yahweh) who laid the foundation for the world (in other words created the world). There are other verses that show this as well. Yahweh never acknowledges the angels as being co-creators.

The reason I quoted from Hebrews chapter 1 was to show that God said Jesus was above the angels, that Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature, and that He upholds all things through the power of His word.

In verse 6, it says, "“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

How could the angels worship the Son unless the Son is God?

Furthermore, starting in verse 8:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][h][/SUP]His kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

The God calls Jesus God. Since Yahweh recognizes no other gods, and declares over and over and over again that He is the only God, that must mean that Jesus is Yahweh as well. It also states here that Jesus participated in the act of creation.

Look at verses 10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And,
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

Not only does it have God calling the Son God, and doing the creation, but God also calls Jesus eternal. These verses can only apply to someone who is God.
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I have an explination that does make sense, but like i said I'm backing out of this debate. I'm getting tired of wasting my breath. I see where you are coming from, and I disagree.
 
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tucksma

Guest
#1,151
#1,151
Thank you though, you are testing my faith well and I need that to know if I do know the truth of God's word or not.
 
A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
#1,152
#1,152
johnluke said:
I know I am coming into this thread real late, but I would like to challenge everyone to debate Matthew 3:16-17, if you can! To me this is a grade A scripture for knowing the nature of the Godhead. The first thing that happened when Jesus started his ministry was to go to the river Jordan and be baptized by John the Baptist. At this time the nature of the Godhead was fully declared as Jesus(1) came up out of the water (standing on the earth) and God, his Father(2) (spoke from heaven) for all to hear that he was pleased with what his Son was doing and to listen to him. And finally, the Holy ghost(3) (being between God in heaven and Jesus on the earth), came down from where the Father was and eventually settled on Jesus.
So there it is, straight-forward, no necessity for interpretation, all could see and hear and understand. All can read and feel the Holy Ghost and understand. That is what a grade A scripture is, one that everyone can agree with.
This scripture is plain and simple. Jesus on the earth separate from God, his Father in the heavens, separate from Jesus, the Holy Ghost in between them, separate from Jesus and God. So where is the debate? Three separate and distinct personages confirmed by scripture that if you asked an 8 year old to draw would confirm the nature easily. They are the Trinity, but they are certainly not one God, they are 3 and they make up the Godhead. In order for God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost to show that they were one God, Jesus would have come up out of the river and then God would have spoken through the mouth of Jesus and said, this is my Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him, and the Holy Ghost would have been there too, and not come down and settled on Jesus as the scripture says. So the whole scripture needs to be rewritten to disclose the nature of the Trinity God.
Now any other scripture that you use to help understand your position, must pass by Matthew 3:16-17 because it is so clear, there is no debate. Not many scriptures are so straight-forward as to be foundational to a doctrine without debate.
So I love the thread and I love the debate, but now focus on Matthew 3:16-17 and let me know how you feel.
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I know you mean well, but you don't really understand what the Trinity actually is, (or you do believe in it, but don't know how to explain it well). You're going to confuse the people who don't believe in it. I think this is a problem with many Christians -- many Christians themselves don't even know what the Trinity is.

You just stated that there is not one God, but three. That is incorrect. There is only one God, but there are three Persons who are Him. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence and Being. To state otherwise would mean that you would be a tri-theist, and you would be a Trinity denier.

Yes, there is one Godhead. There is one God. There are not three gods.

Please read the Athanasian Creed and look at Bowman's avatar.
 
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tucksma

Guest
#1,153
#1,153
Bowman said:
Why do you quote English Trinitarian-rendered scripture, for your position, if you deny The Trinity?
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Because it is the best translation in my opinion, just because a trinitarian translated it doesn't mean that person was right.
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#1,154
Nov 19, 2012
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#1,154
busted...

tucksma said:
Looking through a lot of the verses on God is the Son, and so far see no proof that they are one. I have decided I'm done this debate though, because I have clearly demonstrated how the trinity is false. you STILL have not explained John 17. Or have shown proof Jesus is God. Either way we will both never agree on this unless someone shows me a verse that says all three are one (which you can't it doesnt exist).
God bless and I hope one day you do find truth.
I look foward to our next debate! You did teach me a lot! You taught me what the trinity really is, confirmed my faith that it isn't real, have bettered my on hand scriptural knowledge, and gave me a few new things to study! In all honesty thanks, I still disagree, but thanks!
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You have demonstrated nothing but scriptural ignorance..
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#1,156
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
0
#1,156
tucksma said:
Because it is the best translation in my opinion, just because a trinitarian translated it doesn't mean that person was right.
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If you want to use someone else's translation for your position then you should be able to defend that translation.

As it is, you use Trinitarian rendered translations for your trinity-denial....without offering reasoning...
 
A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
#1,157
#1,157
Bowman said:
The concept of the Biblical Trinity can be visualized by the Trinity Shield.

There are twelve possible deity combinations as thus.


  • The Father is God(2 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.3, John 17.3; 1 Cor. 8.6; 1 Peter 1.3)
  • God is the Father (2 Cor 1.3, Eph 1.3, John 17.3; 1 Cor. 8.6; 1 Peter 1.3)
  • The Son is God(Titus 2.13; 2 Peter 1.1; John 1.3, 1 Cor. 8.6; Col 1.16-17; Heb. 1.2; Rev. 3.14; Heb. 1.10-12; 13.8; John 1.1; 8.58; 17.5; Col. 1.17; Heb. 1.2; John 16.30; Matt. 18.20; 28.20; John 3.13; Eph. 1.23; 4.10; Col. 3.11)
  • God is the Son (Titus 2.13; 2 Peter 1.1; John 1.3, 1 Cor. 8.6; Col 1.16-17; Heb. 1.2; Rev. 3.14; Heb. 1.10-12; 13.8; John 1.1; 8.58; 17.5; Col. 1.17; Heb. 1.2; John 16.30; Matt. 18.20; 28.20; John 3.13; Eph. 1.23; 4.10; Col. 3.11)
  • The Spirit is God(Acts 5.3-4, Cor 3.17-18, Gen. 1.2; Psa. 104.30, Matt. 1.18,20; Luke 1.35; Rom. 1.4; 8.11; Heb. 9.14; 1 Cor. 2.10-11; Psa. 139.7; Rom. 8.1-27)
  • God is the Spirit(Acts 5.3-4, Cor 3.17-18, Gen. 1.2; Psa. 104.30, Matt. 1.18,20; Luke 1.35; Rom. 1.4; 8.11; Heb. 9.14; 1 Cor. 2.10-11; Psa. 139.7; Rom. 8.1-27)
  • The Father is not the Son(John 3.17, 35; 5.22-23, 31-32; 8.16-18; 11.41-42; 12.28; 14.31; 17.1-26; Rom. 1.7; 1 Cor. 1.3; 15.24-28; 2 Cor. 1.2; Gal. 1.3; 4.4; Eph. 1.2; 6.23; Phil. 1.2; 1 Thess. 1.1; 2 Thess. 1.1-2; 1 Tim. 1.1-2; 2 Tim. 1.2; Tit. 1.4; Phm. 3; James 1.1; 2 Pet. 1.2; 1 John 4.10; 2 John 3)
  • The Son is not the Father(John 3.17, 35; 5.22-23, 31-32; 8.16-18; 11.41-42; 12.28; 14.31; 17.1-26; Rom. 1.7; 1 Cor. 1.3; 15.24-28; 2 Cor. 1.2; Gal. 1.3; 4.4; Eph. 1.2; 6.23; Phil. 1.2; 1 Thess. 1.1; 2 Thess. 1.1-2; 1 Tim. 1.1-2; 2 Tim. 1.2; Tit. 1.4; Phm. 3; James 1.1; 2 Pet. 1.2; 1 John 4.10; 2 John 3)
  • The Son is not the Spirit(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26, 16.7)
  • The Spirit is not the Son (Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26, 16.7)
  • The Spirit is not the Father(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26; Romans 8.26-27; Luke 3.21-22)
  • The Father is not the Spirit(Mat 28.19; John 14.16, 15.26; Romans 8.26-27; Luke 3.21-22)
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The Trinity shield drawing is based on the Athanasian Creed, which in turn is based on Scripture :)
 
Bowman

Bowman

Banned
#1,158
Nov 19, 2012
5,484
27
0
#1,158
tucksma said:
I have an explination that does make sense, but like i said I'm backing out of this debate. I'm getting tired of wasting my breath. I see where you are coming from, and I disagree.
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Come back when you can discuss scripture...
 
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tucksma

Guest
#1,159
#1,159
Re: busted...

Bowman said:
You have demonstrated nothing but scriptural ignorance..
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and you have demonstrated that you think you are extremely smart and arrogant. You also know how to debate well, but do not know how to teach. The reason I am done is not because I have no reply, the reason I am done is because I do not have the time to keep debating you, or the want to or need to because no matter what I say you will believe in the trinity, and the point of talking about scripture is to teach/preach.
 
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