There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

majorjones · Jan 12, 2014

Let me make this simple without using 1,000 words. The bible clearly endorses a triune God. STUDY IT...

I don't know where "any" of you are getting the idea of "God(s)" being a part of the "trinity concept"...There is "ONE GOD", three "persons". That "man" cannot fully grasp this is "our" problem, not God's.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 12, 2014

jeffery said:

I don't think there are any Jehovah's Witnesses actively participating in the thread anymore (although there might be some who are reading the thread). There are some non-Trinitarians that are actively participating, though.

What's been happening in the thread lately is that one person, johnluke, is saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three different gods. Others in the thread are trying to show him that there is only one God, but that the one God is triune.

VCO · Jan 12, 2014

jeffery said:

AMEN!

You said, "By the way did you know Charles Taze Russell was an extreme racist." And may I add, a proven False Prophet over and over and over again.

You may want to add the Holman's Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) 2004 edition to your list, I am growing increasingly fond of it. Their Translators will use GOD's Name Yahweh, where it is appropriate.

Isaiah 43:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] I am Yahweh, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.

Isaiah 43:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Exodus 7:16-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Tell him: Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to tell you:
Let My people go, so that they may worship Me in the wilderness, but so far you have not listened.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] This is what Yahweh says: Here is how you will know that I am Yahweh. Watch.
I will strike the water in the Nile with the staff in my hand, and it will turn to blood.

And the amazing Christian thing that HCSB publishers did, was made it a FREE download, to be added
to the totally FREE Bible software library program called WORDsearch Bible Basic after you install it.
It really is totally Free with NO pop-ups, nag screens, or anything. AND there are over 200 FREE books
that can be added to that Library, including 7 Bible Translations. Plus there is a link under Helps, to
online video Tutorials to teach you the program. Here is where you can get those FREE downloads:

https://www.wordsearchbible.com/basic

Watch the video on that site about WORDsearch Bible Basic.

VCO · Jan 12, 2014

johnluke said:

Do you even begin to comprehend that OUR TRIUNE GOD is OMNIPRESENT in time and space?
Mormons picture the Father as an old man with a long white beard who took the form of man
so that He could fool around with Mary and make her pregnant.
THAT is VASTLY DIFFERENT than what we believe.

Romans 1:20 (GW)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] From the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities,
his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed
in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse.

So the Truine GOD has to play by your rules or you will not believe in HIM?

Sorry but our Triune GOD plays by HIS RULES, and you get to choose if you will believe in HIM.

Colossians 2:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ,

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.

John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”

t t t

Joshua 24:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if it doesn’t please you to worship Yahweh, choose for yourselves today
the one you will worship: the gods your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates
River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living.
As for me and my family,
we will worship Yahweh.”

CS1 · Jan 13, 2014

When approaching the Godhead one must come reverently knowing that man can never fully understand the FULL Nature of God . The finite mind cannot understand an eternal God. rom 1:20 is correct In Genesis we see God, His Spirit, and making all by the Spoken word as John Gospel explain in the first chapter . Genesis 1:1 says God created, how did He create? Who is the Spirit of God if not God? What does it mean when God said let US make Man in our image? who is the US? "So the Truine GOD has to play by your rules or you will not believe in HIM?". Ok then I would say that God has satisfy your human reason or it can't be God. Using one verse out of the books and chapters to make your point is real lacking when taken out of context to make your argument for no Trinity. The Word trinity is not in the bible this is true but neither is the word Sabellius. But the word is used to explain a Third century teacher in the church who struggled with the doctrine of the Trinity. it was an attempt to guard against tritheism ( belief in three gods), he taught that the father, Son and Holy Ghost were three different manifestations of God, or modes of being. Although God is essentially one, Sabellius taught that in his self-revelation to human's he takes the form of Father, Son, and holy Ghost. This error is called Modalism or Sabellianism and was condemned by the orthodox church at a council in Rome in AD263.

CS1 · Jan 13, 2014

Now the trinity has never been Three gods but three distinct coe- equal 3=1 in the GodHead.

VCO · Jan 13, 2014

CS1 said:

AMEN to coming Reverently before our Triune GOD. That is something most Churches today have totally forgotten to teach. Now they sound like a Social Club before Services start, instead of a REVERENT place to Worship the Living GOD.

Most Christians also miss the FACT that the Triune GOD DID give us two examples of HOW He Creates, with PLENTY of witnesses. They is called the Feeding of the 5000 and the Feeding of the 4000.

johnluke · Jan 14, 2014

Re: Study up...

VCO said:

Please do not let me ignore anyone, this is too important.
But I suppose you were done trying to reconcile Mat. 3:16-17 with John 1:1 from the standpoint of 3 in 1 consubstantial as soon as you read both, because from that standpoint the 2 scriptures are irreconcilable.
Let me show you how they are reconcilable.
Matthew is straight-forward and the only interpretation is that God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate and distinct from each other and not consubstantial.
John 1:1 has one spot that has verbiage that can be interpreted different ways. If you interpret it 3 in 1 consubstantial it is not reconcilable to Matthew.
Matthew agrees with John that the Word (Jesus) was with God in the beginning. This makes total sense and is reconcilable. I can envision God standing side by side with Jesus, the 2 separate and distinct, as God wills the creation and his Son Jesus goes and actually does the will of the Father. Now the verbiage that ...and the Word (Jesus) was God is interpretive. Again it is irreconcilable to Matthew if you try 3 in 1 consubstantial, but not if you use separate and distinct. Matthew agrees that Jesus is God, but not God the Father. He is God the Son, but nonetheless God. It is just that through Matthew we are able to recognize that although the 2 have the designation of God they are 2 separate and distinct
(not consubstantial).
By this reconciliation we realize they are not 1 God physically consubstantial (3 in 1), but they are 1 God in will and word and purpose and action.

Later I will comment on "part of GOD HIMSELF really did enter...."

Arwen4CJ · Jan 14, 2014

Re: Study up...

johnluke said:

You still don't understand what "consubstantial" means in Trinitarian language. You still think that it means that it makes the Persons non-distinct from one another. That's not what it means. It means that the Persons are one God/Being, not one Person.

We do not believe that Jesus is the Father.
We do not believe that the Father is Jesus.

We do acknowledge that Jesus and the Father are two distinct Persons. However, we also believe that they are the same God. God is not just one God in will and word and purpose and action. He is one God, and He is the only God. He is Yahweh. It is just that He is triune. That is just how He exists.

So, looking at John 1 and Matthew 3, there is nothing to reconcile because we don't see a problem with the two passages.

You see three Persons who are called God in the Bible, and you make the assumption that that has to mean there are three Gods.

We see three Persons who are called God in the Bible, and we know that there is only one God, therefore the one God has to be triune. Being triune, it is no problem for us to see the three Persons side by side. The three Persons are still one God in being and essence. God simply exists differently from us, and He can't be made to fit within our human understanding. We just have to take what God has revealed about Himself and trust Him.

I guess we're not good at explaining it, so maybe the below links will help, especially the first link.

http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity

Consubstantial - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Consubstantiality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
consubstantial - definition of consubstantial by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
consubstantial: definition of consubstantial in Oxford dictionary - American English (US)
consubstantial - Wiktionary
consubstantial - WordReference.com Dictionary of English

Simiel · Jan 14, 2014

Let me give it a shot.. Lol

When you get married are you not 1 flesh but 2 distinct people?

Arwen4CJ · Jan 14, 2014

Simiel said:

Two married people aren't the same being, even though they are joined together in marriage.

All analogies of the Trinity fall short of describing it accurately, although they can help us understand certain aspects of it.

johnluke · Jan 14, 2014

VCO said:

First I wanted to mention that the quote you have referred to was actually from Arwen4CJ. You can read it on p.67,
quote #1338 see especially the 2nd paragraph of his quote.

Your depiction of what the Mormons believe God the Father is like is a fairly crude remark and if this is the ignorant extent of your scholarship about the Mormons then study with one that is intelligent for a year and you will know that their way of thinking about God is VASTLY DIFFERENT than what you portray here.
Think about this for a minute. See Luke 1:35. Gabriel is telling Mary that the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. I'd like to focus on the most interesting word in this scripture and that word is "overshadow". What could the Most High be doing in this situation to cause His shadow to be on Mary so fully that He "overshadowed" her? He was obviously between the light (from whatever source) in the room and Mary. But if God is a spirit, would his spirit cast a shadow? It seems to me that some kind of a solid mass would have to come between the light and Mary in order to cast a shadow so completely over Mary. Regardless of this, Gabriel assures us that the holy thing or child that is to be born of Mary shall be called the Son of God.
Just an interesting thought about the day Mary was impregnated.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 14, 2014

johnluke said:

What quote are you talking about? And about what? I looked at my post that you referred to, and I'm confused why you're bringing it up, and what you're trying to say with bringing it up. Please clarify. Thanks.

Bowman · Jan 14, 2014

johnluke said:

Luke 1.35

And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God.

Again and again we see the Trinity spelled-out quite clearly all throughout scripture...

CS1 · Jan 15, 2014

Amen
Bowman

johnluke · Jan 15, 2014

VCO said:

VCO

The quote i made that you are referring to is just my reiteration of what Arwen4CJ said in his quote on P.67 quote #1338 see his second paragraph.
So are you really serious about the simplicity issue with my position.
Here it is: God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate and distinct Persons. If you were to see them standing by you, you would actually see 3 Persons. Just like Abraham when he looked up and saw 3 men standing by him in Genesis 18. Just like at the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 16 where 1 Person is on the ground, 1 Person in the heavens speaking to the onlookers, and 1 Person coming down from heaven and finally lighting on Jesus, clearly separate and distinct. Just like when Stephen in Acts was being questioned and he looked into the heavens and the heavens were open and he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 2 Persons standing side by side and the Holy Ghost was in him. His declaration that he saw Jesus standing next to God got the Jews so mad that they rushed on him and killed him. See
Acts 7:56. So according to lots of Biblical support, I believe in God the Father and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. 3 Persons, separate and distinct from each other. Because they work so perfectly together in mind and will and purpose and action, it is as if they are 1 God. It is the only answer that I have found that reconciles the entire Bible.
Now lets try your simple Trinity.
"Their" (?) single Deity is Omnipresent at all times in time and space. Their Personages, are 3 separate and distinct functions within a singular Godhead. Wow, what a mouthful. "Their single" how simple is that to explain? "Time and space" how simple is that to explain? "Their Personages are 3 separate and distinct functions in singular God", how do you explain that?
How do you answer the myriad of questions that come from that Greek philosophical verbiage? It always has been that the Trinity and therefore God is not very understandable. That is right, under any circumstances God will be impossible to understand fully. But if you want simple, the Trinity gets as complex as it gets. The Trinity doctrine clashes with so many scriptures in the Bible, you have to really work hard to try to get around that and it doen't always work, believe me I have tried hard.

chubbena · Jan 15, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

Let me give another shot...no laughing.
God is a family - there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The bible does not mention any mother or daughter so don't even go there.
If anybody asks for more explanation, I'd say it's a mystery.
If anybody questions the terms I used here, I'd say the terms have different definitions when it comes to God is a family.

johnluke · Jan 15, 2014

Re: Study up...

Arwen4CJ said:

consubstantial means only 1 thing to me, "of the same substance". So to me when Trinitarians say that God the Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not God the Father and they are 2 separate and distinct Persons, I envision God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost in 1 body. All 3 (and I'm going to use a weird word) squished into 1 body. So that if you were to see the Trinity, you would see 1 God (entity) standing before you, but inside that 1 God (entity) are 3 Personages. These 3 personages are consubstantial or "of the same substance". So that wherever the Father goes, the Son goes, and the Holy Ghost goes and vise versa.
That is why Matthew 3:16-17 clashes with my concept of the Trinity. 3 Persons sharing the same body (3 persons, 1 God)
3 consubstantial Persons in the same body. Matthew makes it clear that the 3 are independently separate and distinct from each other and are absolutely not consubstantial, they are not of the same substance. I'm not sure if that is clear enough, so help me with this understanding.

johnluke · Jan 15, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

Arewn4CJ, this is how I describe the Godhead. 3 people aren't the same being, even though they are joined together in mind and will and purpose and action. And that purpose and action is to create men and help them realize salvation in the Kingdom of God and live with God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost forever.

johnluke · Jan 15, 2014

Bowman said:

Your right, throughout the scriptures the Trinity is spelled out quite clearly if you are looking to confirm the number of Persons in the Trinity. We already agree that there are 3 members in the Godhead, that is no mystery. What is a mystery is at that moment in time and space (VCO likes that concept) where are the 3 members of the Trinity?
We know the Holy Ghost, is upon Mary. We know the Most High is on the outside of Mary casting a shadow over her (and the Holy Ghost who is upon her.) This scripture does not tell us where Jesus is.
So although Luke 1:35 declares that the Trinity is 3, the mystery is where is the Son of God at this time?

There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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