There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

YMFPITW · Jan 20, 2014

here is something i shared with someone else:
First, you have to ask yourself is the basis of the trinity an actual bible based teaching or a traditional man made doctrine?
God is not a god of mystery but wants us to be able to get to know him personally (john 17:3)
Therefore, ask yourself, are there actually scriptures that clearly link the 3 together to be one God. Or is there actually only one God. We can start with the ten commandments where it says that we are to worship only one god and reaffirm this with Isaiah 45:5 where God says there is only one and no one else. John 1:18 tells us that no one has seen God but that the only begotten, lower case g, god has "explained" him. We have many examples of Jesus clarifying himself that he is the son of God and not God himself. In John 11:27 Martha acknowledges to Jesus that he is the SON of God. Jesus did not correct her. Again, at Matthew 16:15,16 Jesus asked Peter who he said Jesus was, Peter replied that he is the son of God. Jesus told him that he is "happy" since it was God who revealed this to him and not flesh. Jesus even expresses in John 14:28 that the father is greater than he is. At John 5:30 he says that he is doing the will of the one who sent him. Although we find scriptures that link God and Jesus that can be mistaken to be a single person, you do not find scriptures that insinuate that the holy spirit is also God. Please take the example of Jesus' baptism. at this point you have three distinctive people (Jesus in the water, God's voice out of the heavens, and the holy spirit on landing on Jesus) at the same time doing three different things. This does not indicate that it is one person.
-Much love, YMFPITW.

Bowman · Jan 20, 2014

YMFPITW said:

Mat 28.19

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.

However, while distinction is made between the referents, each has the same singular name.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.

Bowman · Jan 20, 2014

YMFPITW said:

The Spirit is God(Acts 5.3-4, Cor 3.17-18, Gen. 1.2; Psa. 104.30, Matt. 1.18,20; Luke 1.35; Rom. 1.4; 8.11; Heb. 9.14; 1 Cor. 2.10-11; Psa. 139.7; Rom. 8.1-27)

Bowman · Jan 20, 2014

YMFPITW said:

Deut 5, the 10 commandments, declares the 'Word of God'....also known as the Second Person of The Trinity in the NT...

Arwen4CJ · Jan 21, 2014

YMFPITW said:

Good question. If it based on actual Bible based teaching, then we must accept it, regardless of our individual biases. If it is not based on Scripture, then we must reject it, regardless of our individual bias. The Bible is the standard by which we should measure all doctrine and practice.

True, and He wants us to know Him as He is. Not how we think He should be. We cannot use human reasoning to decide whether or not what He has revealed about Himself is understandable to human logic. We must accept the evidence that He has given about Himself.

Actually, what we must ask is this:
1.) Are the Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit three completely different Gods, all acting with one purpose? This would mean that each Person was His own God -- and we would have a total of three different Gods. Three Persons who are Three Gods. Conclusion: Three Gods

2.) Are the Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit simply different names for different roles that the one God has used throughout time? This would mean we would have one Person and one God. This would also mean that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not distinct Persons, but just the names for roles God has done. One God and One Person who is God. Conclusion: One God

3.) Are the Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit three distinct Persons who are all the one God? This would mean that there is only one God, but that there are three Persons who are Him. One God in three Persons. Conclusion: One God

4.) Or is only the Father God, and the Son and Holy Spirit are something other than God. Maybe a demi-god, or something that isn't God but is close to being God. This would also mean that there is One God in one Person. Conclusion: One God

5.) That there are three Persons who are the one God, but during the incarnation Jesus stopped being God (He laid down His divine attributes and powers and all His Deity) and lived only as a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit. Then He became God again either at His resurrection or at His ascension into heaven. Conclusion: One God, but one of the Persons who is God changed, and was not God part of the time.

6.) That Jesus was always just a human being, but that the cosmic Christ Spirit came on Jesus at His baptism. Or the idea that everyone is God. Conclusion: Multiple Gods

So, we need to turn to Scripture to see which of the above six views is correct.

Isaiah 45 is an excellent chapter to look at. Let's look at what it says:

Isaiah 45:3-7 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“I will give you the [SUP][c][/SUP]treasures of darkness
And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will [SUP][d][/SUP]gird you, though you have not known Me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That [SUP][e][/SUP]men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing [SUP][f][/SUP]well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

Let's skip down to this part:
Isaiah 45:14-25 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thus says the LORD,

“The [SUP][o][/SUP]products of Egypt and the merchandise of [SUP][p][/SUP]Cush
And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours;
They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains
And will bow down to you;
They will make supplication to you:
‘[SUP][q][/SUP]Surely, God is [SUP][r][/SUP]with you, and there is none else,
No other God.’”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Truly, You are a God who hides Himself,
O God of Israel, Savior!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them;
The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Israel has been saved by the LORD
With an everlasting salvation;
You will not be put to shame or humiliated
To all eternity.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it [SUP][s][/SUP]a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),

“I am the LORD, and there is none else.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“I have not spoken in secret,
In [SUP][t][/SUP]some dark land;
I did not say to the [SUP][u][/SUP]offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in [SUP][v][/SUP]a waste place’;
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
Declaring things that are upright.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“Gather yourselves and come;
Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations;
They have no knowledge,
Who carry about [SUP][w][/SUP]their wooden idol
And pray to a god who cannot save.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;For I am God, and there is no other.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”

Please pay attention to the parts that I put in bold, and especially the parts that I underlined here. God has said multiple times in this passage that He is the only God. So that rules out views #1, #6, parts of #4 and parts of #5.

We have to conclude that Yahweh/Jehovah (LORD) is the one and only God. There are some other conclusions we can make based on the parts I underlined and put in bold, but they take looking at other passages of Scripture. I do want us to come back to this passage again.

Not really. Why? Look at Isaiah 45. How many gods are there? One. There cannot be a God with a lower case g, for Him to be a true god. There is only one true God.

Let's look at John chapter 1, which you bring up here. It is another excellent passage to look at.

John 1:1-23 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [SUP][b][/SUP]comprehend it.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]There [SUP][c][/SUP]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. [SUP]7 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]He came [SUP][e][/SUP]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. [SUP]8 [/SUP][SUP][f][/SUP]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There was the true Light [SUP][g][/SUP]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. [SUP]10 [/SUP]He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]He came to His [SUP][h][/SUP]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, [SUP]13 [/SUP]who were [SUP][i][/SUP]born, not of [SUP][j][/SUP]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and [SUP][k][/SUP]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [SUP][l][/SUP]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [SUP][m][/SUP]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness [SUP][n][/SUP]we have all received, and [SUP][o][/SUP]grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [SUP][p][/SUP]were realized through Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” [SUP]20 [/SUP]And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not [SUP][q][/SUP]the Christ.” [SUP]21 [/SUP]They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he *said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” [SUP]23 [/SUP]He said, “I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”

Here I also need to quote from Isaiah 40, because John the Baptist was quoting from it in John 1:23.

Isaiah 40:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]A voice [SUP][d][/SUP]is calling,
“Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Let every valley be lifted up,
And every mountain and hill be made low;
And let the rough ground become a plain,
And the rugged terrain a broad valley;
[SUP]5 [/SUP][SUP][e][/SUP]Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

Remember, that LORD in the OT always means Yahweh (Jehovah) (the one and only God). So for John the Baptist to quote from this passage, and make it refer to Jesus, he was identifying Jesus as God.

Now, looking at the earlier verses in John chapter 1:
1.) The phrase "in the beginning" I've heard that that the Greek there is exactly the same as the Greek in the Septuagint for Genesis 1:1. This means that the pre-incarnate Jesus is eternal and that He was there at creation.

2.) Secondly, we notice that the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus) was with God. But then verse three says that the Word was God.....so that means that there must be at least two Persons who are God. Again, we know from Isaiah 45 that there is only one God, so these are not two different Gods. I've also heard that the "with" there means face to face. So it can't be two roles talking to each other. These are actually two Persons with each other.

3.) "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." That is an explicit statement that Jesus took part in creating. Again, look at Isaiah 45 -- God is the only Creator.

4.) The Word became human. He didn't lay aside His deity. He simply took on the human nature....

5.) John the Baptist used a quote from the OT that specifically referred to God

So, then there is only one viewpoint that makes sense, in light of both John 1 and Isaiah 45, and that is viewpoint #3. All others have been ruled out by using just these verses from these two chapters.

Jesus is obviously not the Father. The Father is obviously not Jesus, but both are God.

I'll continue in a new post....

Arwen4CJ · Jan 21, 2014

YMFPITW said:

You make the assumption that only the Father is God, so that all references to God must be to the Father. We see that is incorrect in John chapter 1. Since there is only one true God (Yahweh/Jehovah), and yet Jesus is called God, then we have to conclude that both the Father and Jesus are God.

Yes, Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of God, and He allows others to call Him that. It isn't incorrect, and it doesn't deny Jesus' own deity. It simply means that there are at least two Persons who are God.

John 11:27 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are [SUP][a][/SUP]the Christ, the Son of God, even [SUP][b][/SUP]He who comes into the world.”
[h=4]Footnotes:[/h]

John 11:27 I.e. the Messiah
John 11:27 The Coming One was the Messianic title

To acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah was to acknowledge that Jesus was God. We would have to look at several prophecies from the OT that show the Messiah's Deity for this.

We'll look at three of them:
Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will [SUP][i][/SUP]rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Again, from Isaiah 45 (and other passages of Scripture), we know that there is only one God, and that is Yahweh/Jehovah. So for Scripture to identify the Messiah as God means that He is Yahweh/Jehovah.

Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [SUP][a][/SUP]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [SUP][b][/SUP]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

[h=4]Footnotes:[/h]

Daniel 7:14 Or sovereignty
Daniel 7:14 Lit tongue

Micah 5:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“[SUP][c][/SUP]But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
[SUP][d][/SUP]His goings forth are from long ago,From the days of eternity.”

Since God is the only One who is eternal, the Messiah has to be God.

Matthew 16:13-19 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” [SUP]14 [/SUP]And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, [SUP][a][/SUP]Elijah; but still others, [SUP][b][/SUP]Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” [SUP]16 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered, “You are [SUP][c][/SUP]the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [SUP]17 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon [SUP][d][/SUP]Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I also say to you that you are [SUP][e][/SUP]Peter, and upon this [SUP][f][/SUP]rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth [SUP][g][/SUP]shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth [SUP][h][/SUP]shall have been loosed in heaven.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then He [SUP][i][/SUP]warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was [SUP][j][/SUP]the Christ.

[h=4]Footnotes:[/h]

Matthew 16:14 Gr Elias
Matthew 16:14 Gr Jeremias
Matthew 16:16 I.e. the Messiah
Matthew 16:17 I.e. son of Jonah
Matthew 16:18 Gr Petros, a stone
Matthew 16:18 Gr petra, large rock; bed-rock
Matthew 16:19 Gr estai dedemenon, fut. pft. pass.
Matthew 16:19 Gr estai lelumenon, fut. pft. pass.
Matthew 16:20 Or strictly admonished
Matthew 16:20 I.e. the Messiah

All this shows is that Jesus is not the Father, and that the Father is not Jesus. It doesn't deny Jesus' own deity.

John 14:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Once again, I have to say, look up the phrase hypostatic union. You'll get the answer to this verse there. But again, Jesus and the Father are two different Persons, but they are both the same God.

Yes, Jesus was sent by the Father. That just means that Jesus is not the Father, and that the Father is not Jesus. It doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God.

Agreed, Scripture shows that the Father and Jesus are not a single Person. However, Scripture does show that they are the same God.

As for the Holy Spirit being God, Bowman's post #1403 shows Scripture that reveals that the Holy Spirit is also God. Let's just look at one of these passages, Acts 5.

Acts 5:1-11 (NASB)
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s [SUP][a][/SUP]full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? [SUP]4 [/SUP]While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not [SUP][b][/SUP]under your control? Why is it that you have [SUP][c][/SUP]conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land [SUP][d][/SUP]for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, [SUP][e][/SUP]that was the price.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

We see here that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. That only makes sense if the Holy Spirit is God. Once again, there is only one God, so we have to conclude that the Holy Spirit is also Yahweh/Jehovah.

Right. There were three Persons at Jesus' baptism, not one Person. This shows that:
The Father is not Jesus
The Father is not the Holy Spirit

Jesus is not the Father
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is not the Father
The Holy Spirit is not Jesus

They are three Persons, yet all of them are God. There is only one God. So all three Persons are Yahweh/Jehovah.

You've done a good job of disproving view #2 in my last post. We are agreed that that is a wrong teaching. However, you have not disproved the Trinity.

johnluke · Jan 21, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

Good question. If it based on actual Bible based teaching, then we must accept it, regardless of our individual biases. If it is not based on Scripture, then we must reject it, regardless of our individual bias. The Bible is the standard by which we should measure all doctrine and practice.

True, and He wants us to know Him as He is. Not how we think He should be. We cannot use human reasoning to decide whether or not what He has revealed about Himself is understandable to human logic. We must accept the evidence that He has given about Himself.

Actually, what we must ask is this:
1.) Are the Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit three completely different Gods, all acting with one purpose? This would mean that each Person was His own God -- and we would have a total of three different Gods. Three Persons who are Three Gods. Conclusion: Three Gods

2.) Are the Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit simply different names for different roles that the one God has used throughout time? This would mean we would have one Person and one God. This would also mean that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not distinct Persons, but just the names for roles God has done. One God and One Person who is God. Conclusion: One God

3.) Are the Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit three distinct Persons who are all the one God? This would mean that there is only one God, but that there are three Persons who are Him. One God in three Persons. Conclusion: One God

4.) Or is only the Father God, and the Son and Holy Spirit are something other than God. Maybe a demi-god, or something that isn't God but is close to being God. This would also mean that there is One God in one Person. Conclusion: One God

5.) That there are three Persons who are the one God, but during the incarnation Jesus stopped being God (He laid down His divine attributes and powers and all His Deity) and lived only as a man who was empowered by the Holy Spirit. Then He became God again either at His resurrection or at His ascension into heaven. Conclusion: One God, but one of the Persons who is God changed, and was not God part of the time.

6.) That Jesus was always just a human being, but that the cosmic Christ Spirit came on Jesus at His baptism. Or the idea that everyone is God. Conclusion: Multiple Gods

So, we need to turn to Scripture to see which of the above six views is correct.

Isaiah 45 is an excellent chapter to look at. Let's look at what it says:

Isaiah 45:3-7 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“I will give you the [SUP][c][/SUP]treasures of darkness
And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will [SUP][d][/SUP]gird you, though you have not known Me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That [SUP][e][/SUP]men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing [SUP][f][/SUP]well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

Let's skip down to this part:
Isaiah 45:14-25 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thus says the LORD,

“The [SUP][o][/SUP]products of Egypt and the merchandise of [SUP][p][/SUP]Cush
And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours;
They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains
And will bow down to you;
They will make supplication to you:
‘[SUP][q][/SUP]Surely, God is [SUP][r][/SUP]with you, and there is none else,
No other God.’”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Truly, You are a God who hides Himself,
O God of Israel, Savior!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them;
The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Israel has been saved by the LORD
With an everlasting salvation;
You will not be put to shame or humiliated
To all eternity.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it [SUP][s][/SUP]a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),

“I am the LORD, and there is none else.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“I have not spoken in secret,
In [SUP][t][/SUP]some dark land;
I did not say to the [SUP][u][/SUP]offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in [SUP][v][/SUP]a waste place’;
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
Declaring things that are upright.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“Gather yourselves and come;
Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations;
They have no knowledge,
Who carry about [SUP][w][/SUP]their wooden idol
And pray to a god who cannot save.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;For I am God, and there is no other.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”

Please pay attention to the parts that I put in bold, and especially the parts that I underlined here. God has said multiple times in this passage that He is the only God. So that rules out views #1, #6, parts of #4 and parts of #5.

We have to conclude that Yahweh/Jehovah (LORD) is the one and only God. There are some other conclusions we can make based on the parts I underlined and put in bold, but they take looking at other passages of Scripture. I do want us to come back to this passage again.

Not really. Why? Look at Isaiah 45. How many gods are there? One. There cannot be a God with a lower case g, for Him to be a true god. There is only one true God.

Let's look at John chapter 1, which you bring up here. It is another excellent passage to look at.

John 1:1-23 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [SUP][b][/SUP]comprehend it.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]There [SUP][c][/SUP]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. [SUP]7 [/SUP][SUP][d][/SUP]He came [SUP][e][/SUP]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. [SUP]8 [/SUP][SUP][f][/SUP]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There was the true Light [SUP][g][/SUP]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. [SUP]10 [/SUP]He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [SUP]11 [/SUP]He came to His [SUP][h][/SUP]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, [SUP]13 [/SUP]who were [SUP][i][/SUP]born, not of [SUP][j][/SUP]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and [SUP][k][/SUP]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [SUP][l][/SUP]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [SUP][m][/SUP]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness [SUP][n][/SUP]we have all received, and [SUP][o][/SUP]grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [SUP][p][/SUP]were realized through Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” [SUP]20 [/SUP]And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not [SUP][q][/SUP]the Christ.” [SUP]21 [/SUP]They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he *said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” [SUP]23 [/SUP]He said, “I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”

Here I also need to quote from Isaiah 40, because John the Baptist was quoting from it in John 1:23.

Isaiah 40:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]A voice [SUP][d][/SUP]is calling,
“Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Let every valley be lifted up,
And every mountain and hill be made low;
And let the rough ground become a plain,
And the rugged terrain a broad valley;
[SUP]5 [/SUP][SUP][e][/SUP]Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

Remember, that LORD in the OT always means Yahweh (Jehovah) (the one and only God). So for John the Baptist to quote from this passage, and make it refer to Jesus, he was identifying Jesus as God.

Now, looking at the earlier verses in John chapter 1:
1.) The phrase "in the beginning" I've heard that that the Greek there is exactly the same as the Greek in the Septuagint for Genesis 1:1. This means that the pre-incarnate Jesus is eternal and that He was there at creation.

2.) Secondly, we notice that the Word (the pre-incarnate Jesus) was with God. But then verse three says that the Word was God.....so that means that there must be at least two Persons who are God. Again, we know from Isaiah 45 that there is only one God, so these are not two different Gods. I've also heard that the "with" there means face to face. So it can't be two roles talking to each other. These are actually two Persons with each other.

3.) "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." That is an explicit statement that Jesus took part in creating. Again, look at Isaiah 45 -- God is the only Creator.

4.) The Word became human. He didn't lay aside His deity. He simply took on the human nature....

5.) John the Baptist used a quote from the OT that specifically referred to God

So, then there is only one viewpoint that makes sense, in light of both John 1 and Isaiah 45, and that is viewpoint #3. All others have been ruled out by using just these verses from these two chapters.

Jesus is obviously not the Father. The Father is obviously not Jesus, but both are God.

I'll continue in a new post....

I would just like to comment on John 1:18 NSAB
No one has seen God at any time, the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained him.

This scripture is messy for #'s 2, 3, 4, and probably 5.

Here we have 1 God, God the Father, WHO HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN AND IS NOT BEGOTTEN
Then we have another God, Jesus, WHO HAS BEEN SEEN AND WAS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD OF GOD THE FATHER, the God who has never been seen and is not begotten.
Now you have 2 separate and distinct Gods.
The 1st God is unseen and unbegotten.
The 2nd God is seen and the only begotten God of God.

#'s 2, 3, 4, and probably 5 may have got away with being 1 God if the NASB had not translated the words
"only begotten Son" (KJV) as "only begotten God" (NASB). The translators thought they could make a point for the Trinity doctrine
by substituting the word "God" for "Son" but what they did was created 2 Gods. Maybe they thought they could still get away with changing the Bible by saying "he (Jesus) is in the bosom of the Father", but we all know this is a metaphor for being close to God and possibly being protected by God, but not that Jesus is inside God's chest cavity (bosom).

So not a good scripture for #'s 2, 3, 4, and probably 5.

I'll take a look at the rest of these scriptures later, this one just caught my eye.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 21, 2014

johnluke said:

I don't know Greek, so someone who does will have to tell us what the Greek actually says. Bowman seems to know Greek, so I will leave that part to him.

However, the NASB is considered to be a very literal translation. Even the theologically liberal scholars respect it. So if the translators were guilty of "adding things in to fit their theology," then those theologically liberal scholars would be one of the first to denounce it.

You are assuming that just because something is translated a certain way in the KJV that the KJV has it right and all other translations do not. But the KJV isn't the original Greek. I will add more later.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 21, 2014

johnluke said:

Now....to add to my earlier reply.....

Calling Jesus "the only begotten God," doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus is a second God. We can't pull just one verse out of Scripture and make a doctrine out of it. If we look at what the rest of Scripture says over and over and over again, it declares that Yahweh is the one and only God. Therefore, if the Bible identifies anyone as a true God, then that Person must be Yahweh.

Yes, Jesus is begotten. Being begotten doesn't make Him a second God. It just shows that there are two Persons who are God (Yahweh).

Later on in the Gospel of John Jesus claims to be the I Am of the OT. That is a direct claim to be Yahweh. It isn't a claim to be a second God or a demi-god or whatever.

John 8:57-59 (NASB)
[SUP]57 [/SUP]So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” [SUP]58 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [SUP][q][/SUP]was born, I am.” [SUP]59[/SUP]Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus [SUP][r][/SUP]hid Himself and went out of the temple.

They knew exactly what Jesus was claiming there, which is why they picked up stones to throw at Him. He was claiming to be Yahweh.

VCO · Jan 22, 2014

johnluke said:

No it does NOT. You have not read enough on the subject. You are trying to make your case by ignoring what else Jesus said about HIS relationship with the FATHER:

John 14:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of
the works themselves.

John 10:28-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”

Think about it, WHO'S HAND is holding on to our eternal life HE HAS GIVEN our human spirits?

Yes Jesus is BOTH human and GOD in the flesh. The difference between Jesus and us, is our human spirits are created by HIM, while HIS Spirit is the CREATOR HIMSELF, YAHWEH.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Just how long are you going to kick against those sharp thorns or goads while wearing only sandals before you realize, THEY REALLY ARE ONE GOD.

jackmoore · Jan 23, 2014

Bowman said:

Mat 28.19

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.

However, while distinction is made between the referents, each has the same singular name.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.

then baptize in the name of God Jesus and the Holy Spirit. not in the name of the trinity

jackmoore · Jan 23, 2014

VCO said:

No it does NOT. You have not read enough on the subject. You are trying to make your case by ignoring what else Jesus said about HIS relationship with the FATHER:

John 14:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of
the works themselves.

John 10:28-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”

Think about it, WHO'S HAND is holding on to our eternal life HE HAS GIVEN our human spirits?

Yes Jesus is BOTH human and GOD in the flesh. The difference between Jesus and us, is our human spirits are created by HIM, while HIS Spirit is the CREATOR HIMSELF, YAHWEH.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Just how long are you going to kick against those sharp thorns or goads while wearing only sandals before you realize, THEY REALLY ARE ONE GOD.

hey did you know that some sons look like fathers and that Jesus was teaching and prophesying from what God told him to teach and prophesy

jackmoore · Jan 23, 2014

God made himself manifest through Jesus his son

jackmoore · Jan 23, 2014

God made himself manifest through Jesus his son

jackmoore · Jan 23, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

Now....to add to my earlier reply.....

Calling Jesus "the only begotten God," doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus is a second God. We can't pull just one verse out of Scripture and make a doctrine out of it. If we look at what the rest of Scripture says over and over and over again, it declares that Yahweh is the one and only God. Therefore, if the Bible identifies anyone as a true God, then that Person must be Yahweh.

Yes, Jesus is begotten. Being begotten doesn't make Him a second God. It just shows that there are two Persons who are God (Yahweh).

Later on in the Gospel of John Jesus claims to be the I Am of the OT. That is a direct claim to be Yahweh. It isn't a claim to be a second God or a demi-god or whatever.

John 8:57-59 (NASB)
[SUP]57 [/SUP]So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” [SUP]58 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [SUP][q][/SUP]was born, I am.” [SUP]59[/SUP]Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus [SUP][r][/SUP]hid Himself and went out of the temple.

They knew exactly what Jesus was claiming there, which is why they picked up stones to throw at Him. He was claiming to be Yahweh.

actually it says Jesus is the only begotten son of God
just saying and otherwise i agree with you

johnluke · Jan 23, 2014

Arwen4CJ said:

You make the assumption that only the Father is God, so that all references to God must be to the Father. We see that is incorrect in John chapter 1. Since there is only one true God (Yahweh/Jehovah), and yet Jesus is called God, then we have to conclude that both the Father and Jesus are God.

Yes, Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of God, and He allows others to call Him that. It isn't incorrect, and it doesn't deny Jesus' own deity. It simply means that there are at least two Persons who are God.

John 11:27 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are [SUP][a][/SUP]the Christ, the Son of God, even [SUP][b][/SUP]He who comes into the world.”
Footnotes:

John 11:27 I.e. the Messiah
John 11:27 The Coming One was the Messianic title

To acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah was to acknowledge that Jesus was God. We would have to look at several prophecies from the OT that show the Messiah's Deity for this.

We'll look at three of them:
Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will [SUP][i][/SUP]rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Again, from Isaiah 45 (and other passages of Scripture), we know that there is only one God, and that is Yahweh/Jehovah. So for Scripture to identify the Messiah as God means that He is Yahweh/Jehovah.

Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [SUP][a][/SUP]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [SUP][b][/SUP]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Footnotes:

Daniel 7:14 Or sovereignty
Daniel 7:14 Lit tongue

Micah 5:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“[SUP][c][/SUP]But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
[SUP][d][/SUP]His goings forth are from long ago,From the days of eternity.”

Since God is the only One who is eternal, the Messiah has to be God.

Matthew 16:13-19 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” [SUP]14 [/SUP]And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, [SUP][a][/SUP]Elijah; but still others, [SUP][b][/SUP]Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” [SUP]16 [/SUP]Simon Peter answered, “You are [SUP][c][/SUP]the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [SUP]17 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon [SUP][d][/SUP]Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I also say to you that you are [SUP][e][/SUP]Peter, and upon this [SUP][f][/SUP]rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth [SUP][g][/SUP]shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth [SUP][h][/SUP]shall have been loosed in heaven.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then He [SUP][i][/SUP]warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was [SUP][j][/SUP]the Christ.

Footnotes:

Matthew 16:14 Gr Elias
Matthew 16:14 Gr Jeremias
Matthew 16:16 I.e. the Messiah
Matthew 16:17 I.e. son of Jonah
Matthew 16:18 Gr Petros, a stone
Matthew 16:18 Gr petra, large rock; bed-rock
Matthew 16:19 Gr estai dedemenon, fut. pft. pass.
Matthew 16:19 Gr estai lelumenon, fut. pft. pass.
Matthew 16:20 Or strictly admonished
Matthew 16:20 I.e. the Messiah

All this shows is that Jesus is not the Father, and that the Father is not Jesus. It doesn't deny Jesus' own deity.

John 14:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Once again, I have to say, look up the phrase hypostatic union. You'll get the answer to this verse there. But again, Jesus and the Father are two different Persons, but they are both the same God.

Yes, Jesus was sent by the Father. That just means that Jesus is not the Father, and that the Father is not Jesus. It doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God.

Agreed, Scripture shows that the Father and Jesus are not a single Person. However, Scripture does show that they are the same God.

As for the Holy Spirit being God, Bowman's post #1403 shows Scripture that reveals that the Holy Spirit is also God. Let's just look at one of these passages, Acts 5.

Acts 5:1-11 (NASB)
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s [SUP][a][/SUP]full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? [SUP]4 [/SUP]While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not [SUP][b][/SUP]under your control? Why is it that you have [SUP][c][/SUP]conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land [SUP][d][/SUP]for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, [SUP][e][/SUP]that was the price.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

We see here that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. That only makes sense if the Holy Spirit is God. Once again, there is only one God, so we have to conclude that the Holy Spirit is also Yahweh/Jehovah.

Right. There were three Persons at Jesus' baptism, not one Person. This shows that:
The Father is not Jesus
The Father is not the Holy Spirit

Jesus is not the Father
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is not the Father
The Holy Spirit is not Jesus

They are three Persons, yet all of them are God. There is only one God. So all three Persons are Yahweh/Jehovah.

You've done a good job of disproving view #2 in my last post. We are agreed that that is a wrong teaching. However, you have not disproved the Trinity.

"They are 3 Persons, yet all of them are God. There is only one God. So all 3 Persons are Yahweh/Jehovah."

Well not so fast. Yahweh/Jehovah does = Jesus before he was born on earth, he was the God of the Old Testament.
Jesus = Jesus when he was on earth.
Jesus = Jesus today.
You readily admit that Jesus is not God the Father, so why would they both have the same name. They don't.

There is another God that is not called Yahweh. This God is the Father of Yahweh.

If you read in the Hebrew, chapter 1 of Genesis, the name of the God that is doing all of the creating is Elohim. The English translation of Elohim is God.

Then in chapter 2, verse 2 Elohim of the 1st chapter is now resting.
Then in chapter 2, verse 3 we are introduced to another God. His name is Yahweh/Elohim and the English translation is
LORD God.

God of the 1st chapter is Elohim who is God the Father, the unbegotten God, the unseen God, the God that is the Father of Jesus.

God of the 2nd chapter of Genesis is Yahweh/Elohim/LORD God is Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of Elohim/God the Father. He is also the God in chapter 2 that made everything that was made, everything that exists. He is also the God that is seen throughout the Old Testament by many men face to face (as a man speaketh to his friend, which is the way Yahweh/Elohim is trying to tell you that it is a literal face to face meeting, not just a figurative statement). The God that was made flesh and dwelt among us and sacrificed his life to save us in the Kingdom of God.

So the name of God the Father is Elohim, the name of Jesus is Yahweh/Elohim and the name of the Holy Spirit is just that.

They are 1 God in mind/will/purpose/action.

Now we all know that the members of the Godhead have proper names, but they have many names that they are known by, and although it is confusing, each one can use any name he wishes at the time because their mind/will/purpose/action are so in harmony that what is in a name? So the name thing can be a black hole that we may never get out of until the end, but chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis is interesting as it introduces 2 Gods with different names and different functions, which they do so harmoniously that they are ONE.

tucksma · Jan 23, 2014

johnluke said:

"They are 3 Persons, yet all of them are God. There is only one God. So all 3 Persons are Yahweh/Jehovah."

Well not so fast. Yahweh/Jehovah does = Jesus before he was born on earth, he was the God of the Old Testament.
Jesus = Jesus when he was on earth.
Jesus = Jesus today.
You readily admit that Jesus is not God the Father, so why would they both have the same name. They don't.

There is another God that is not called Yahweh. This God is the Father of Yahweh.

If you read in the Hebrew, chapter 1 of Genesis, the name of the God that is doing all of the creating is Elohim. The English translation of Elohim is God.

Then in chapter 2, verse 2 Elohim of the 1st chapter is now resting.
Then in chapter 2, verse 3 we are introduced to another God. His name is Yahweh/Elohim and the English translation is
LORD God.

God of the 1st chapter is Elohim who is God the Father, the unbegotten God, the unseen God, the God that is the Father of Jesus.

God of the 2nd chapter of Genesis is Yahweh/Elohim/LORD God is Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of Elohim/God the Father. He is also the God in chapter 2 that made everything that was made, everything that exists. He is also the God that is seen throughout the Old Testament by many men face to face (as a man speaketh to his friend, which is the way Yahweh/Elohim is trying to tell you that it is a literal face to face meeting, not just a figurative statement). The God that was made flesh and dwelt among us and sacrificed his life to save us in the Kingdom of God.

So the name of God the Father is Elohim, the name of Jesus is Yahweh/Elohim and the name of the Holy Spirit is just that.

They are 1 God in mind/will/purpose/action.

Now we all know that the members of the Godhead have proper names, but they have many names that they are known by, and although it is confusing, each one can use any name he wishes at the time because their mind/will/purpose/action are so in harmony that what is in a name? So the name thing can be a black hole that we may never get out of until the end, but chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis is interesting as it introduces 2 Gods with different names and different functions, which they do so harmoniously that they are ONE.

Except Elohim is plural and means mighty ones.
Moses is called Ellohim. Also the rulers of Isreal are called it. Psamls 82:6

Ellohim doesn't mean God, but God can be called Elohim.

Arwen4CJ · Jan 23, 2014

johnluke said:

Because there is only one God, Yahweh.

No there isn't. The Bible declares over and over again that there is only one God. If you think that there was another god before Yahweh, then how do you explain this:

Once again, let's look at Isaiah 45:
Isaiah 45 (NASB)
45 Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed,
Whom I have taken by the right hand,
To subdue nations before him
And [SUP][a][/SUP]to loose the loins of kings;
To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“I will go before you and make the [SUP][b][/SUP]rough places smooth;
I will shatter the doors of bronze and cut through their iron bars.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“I will give you the [SUP][c][/SUP]treasures of darkness
And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“For the sake of Jacob My servant,
And Israel My chosen one,
I have also called you by your name;
I have given you a title of honor
Though you have not known Me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will [SUP][d][/SUP]gird you, though you have not known Me;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That [SUP][e][/SUP]men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing [SUP][f][/SUP]well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]“Drip down, O heavens, from above,
And let the clouds pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit,
And righteousness spring up with it.
I, the LORD, have created it.

[SUP]9[/SUP]“Woe to the one who quarrels with his [SUP][g][/SUP]Maker—
An earthenware vessel [SUP][h][/SUP]among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the [SUP][i][/SUP]potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to a woman, ‘To what are you [SUP][j][/SUP]giving birth?’”

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his [SUP][k][/SUP]Maker:

“[SUP][l][/SUP]Ask Me about the things to come [SUP][m][/SUP]concerning My sons,
And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
I stretched out the heavens with My hands
And I [SUP][n][/SUP]ordained all their host.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I have aroused him in righteousness
And I will make all his ways smooth;
He will build My city and will let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward,” says the LORD of hosts.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thus says the LORD,

“The [SUP][o][/SUP]products of Egypt and the merchandise of [SUP][p][/SUP]Cush
And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours;
They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains
And will bow down to you;
They will make supplication to you:
‘[SUP][q][/SUP]Surely, God is [SUP][r][/SUP]with you, and there is none else,
No other God.’”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Truly, You are a God who hides Himself,
O God of Israel, Savior!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them;
The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Israel has been saved by the LORD
With an everlasting salvation;
You will not be put to shame or humiliated
To all eternity.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it [SUP][s][/SUP]a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),

“I am the LORD, and there is none else.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“I have not spoken in secret,
In [SUP][t][/SUP]some dark land;
I did not say to the [SUP][u][/SUP]offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in [SUP][v][/SUP]a waste place’;
I, the LORD, speak righteousness,
Declaring things that are upright.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“Gather yourselves and come;
Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations;
They have no knowledge,
Who carry about [SUP][w][/SUP]their wooden idol
And pray to a god who cannot save.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”

According to this chapter, how can there be any other god except Yahweh?

Yahweh is the only Creator.

There is no other god except Yahweh.

It is true that the Father is unbegotten, and that He is unseen. However, this doesn't mean that He is a different God from Jesus.

Saying that Elohim and Yahweh are two different gods is a false dichotomy. There is only one God, and He is triune.

The Persons do have individual names, but they are all the exact same God, Yahweh. He is the only God who has ever existed or will ever exist. He is triune.

There cannot be another God. There can only be one.

No, it does not. The Bible declares over and over and over again that Yahweh is the one and only God. There are not two gods. There are not three gods. There are not millions of gods. There is only one.

Bowman · Jan 23, 2014

jackmoore said:

Each person of The Trinity has the same ONE name.....thus, mentioning one is the same as mentioning The Trinity.

This is proven-out in other scriptures which mention the baptism in only Jesus' name.

VCO · Jan 24, 2014

jackmoore said:

The main purpose of GOD the FATHER, has always been to WILL what HE wants done.

The main purpose of GOD the Son, has always been to do the WILL of the Father.

The main purpose of GOD the Holy Spirit here on Earth has always been to enable us to do the WILL of the Father, starting with believing in, and receiving Jesus Christ as LORD.

NO that does NOT make three GODs, they coequally are ONE DEITY, HE IS YAHWEH.

There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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