There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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The question you should be asking yourself is why should the word "Cross" be inserted into Bibles when both the Hebrew and Greek for the instrument for Jesus death mean simply a tree, stake, pole or a beam. The word "cross" has no connection with the word Starous or Xlyon, therefore it shouldn't be seen in any Bible. If people wish to speculate then speculate, however do not insert pure assumption into Gods word.
Okay, now I see where you are coming from about it was a stake not a cross that he was hung on
And if I got this right in that day, it was stakes men were crucified on and originally he was nailed to a pole hands over head and feet were on top of each other , then they put him up on the pole that was a tree.
Is this what you are talking about?
 
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danschance

Guest
JW's contest that Jesus had no cross bar and even claim the cross is pagan. Why does it matter? The point is Jesus died for us that our sins can be forgiven. So I find their argument to be childish.

They claim the greek word for cross is stake so Jesus must of died on a pole without a cross member. If that is true then why does the bible say:
"And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.” Matt 27:37
If He died on a pole there would be no room to place a sign above his head. This proves the JW's are barking up the wrong pole.
 
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Bazman

Guest
JW's contest that Jesus had no cross bar and even claim the cross is pagan. Why does it matter? The point is Jesus died for us that our sins can be forgiven. So I find their argument to be childish.

They claim the greek word for cross is stake so Jesus must of died on a pole without a cross member. If that is true then why does the bible say:


If He died on a pole there would be no room to place a sign above his head. This proves the JW's are barking up the wrong pole.

Lol I guess that makes Paul pagan after all he believed it was a cross that Jesus was nailed to. Colossians 2 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to HIS CROSS;
(maybe Paul has been misquoted or misunderstood again!) sigh
 
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danschance

Guest
Hi again Arwen, before we go on I need to ask you something, for the sake of any readers and for myself I ask you to stop spamming the board with the unnecessary use parallel scripture in relation to me
I have read her posts and see nothing wrong with them. Unfortunately you feel the need to control others and force them to respond like a trained monkey. You are not a moderator here and you claiming her posting scripture as spam is rude, abusive and uncalled for.
 
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GreenNnice

Guest


I do not believe when Jesus said 'Before Abraham was born, I am.', that he was referring to be YHWH of the OT, my reasons for this is as follows.

That firstly the term "ego eimi" (I am) wasn't the term used for the name of YHWH in the OT, the term for YHWH's name was "ego eimi ho on" which roughly means "I am the existence". No doubt the term "Before Abraham was, I am," is certainly appropriate. The Greek literally says, "Before Abraham comes to be I am," or "Before Abraham came to be, I am." However claiming the "ego eimi" was in regards to YHWH is another thing.

Another point to why I don't believe Jesus was refereeing to YHWH is because of all the other usages of the term 'ego eimi/ I am'. The term "I am" gets used a ton of times in the NT, however for one to wave his magic stick and simply pick and choose when the term means YHWH and when it doesn't is wrong.

Here are some example of times the term "ego eimi is used but does mean YHWH simply for the reason that the trinitrian doesn't want it to. At Luke 22:33, when Peter said to Jesus,
"I am prepared to go to prison with you and to death," should we assume that by his usage of 'ego eimi' he was saying "YHWH is prepared to go to prison with you and to death?". Again, if we simply assumed the words ego eimi were to be understood as the divine name, when John the Baptist used the words ego eimi saying, "I am not the Christ" should we wave our magic stick and say John the Baptist said, "Yahweh is not the Christ"? Of course not! In all these instances there's no reason to believe so, the same can be found with Jesus usage of ego eimi, there's nothing in the text to say or even imply that when he said 'ego eimi/I am' that it meant YHWH, the only thing that does suggest it is a already pre-conceived idea that Jesus is God.

Jesus used the term elsewhere in John where it is quite clear he did not intend to use a divine name. For example, the Samaritian woman said to Jesus, "I know that the Christ is coming" and Jesus responded to her, "I am who speaks to you." It should be obvious to anyone that Jesus uses the words ego eimi not for the purposes of claiming to be YHWH but to let her know he is the Christ who she just mentioned.

Some people also claim that the fact that the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus proves that the term was used to show that he was YHWH, however looking again at the other instances Jesus use of the word its clear this is also false. During this very same dialogue with the Jews in John chapter 8, Jesus used the term ego eimi several times before he used it at verse 8:58 (8:12,16,18,23,24,28). And through all these many utterances of ego eimi by Jesus, none of these Jews at any time ever supposed Jesus was referring to the divine name YHWH. For example, when Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am you wil die in your sins," the Jews did not respond by supposing Jesus was claiming to be YHWH. Instead, they did just the opposite by responding, "Who are you?"The thought that Jesus was using a divine name never even crossed their mind. And again At John 8:24-25, rather than recognizing the words ego eimi to be a direct reference to their God's divine name, the Jews had absolutely no idea who Jesus was claiming to be. But Trinitarians expect people to believe the claim that when Jesus used the same term at 8:58, the Jews immediately recognized, and necessarily would have recognized, ego eimi to be a reference to the divine name of their God.

Again the only reason why Jesus usage of "I am" (ego eimi) in John 8:58 was in reference to YHWH (according to the trinitrian) is because a trinitrian who already believes Jesus is God picks up his magic wand, waves it, and says that they want it to mean YHWH. There's simply not one shred of evidence to suggest it.

OK, thanks for answering, NWL. Fair enough. Your going by biblical Greek interpretation and it will hold you true to your belief, and, maybe, it should. But, maybe, I am thinking here, that God could be convicting you to consider another interpretation, too, of 'Before Abraham was, I am.'
Jesus wasn't on Earth to butcher the English language. He knew tenses, and, there is something profound in that speech used regarding Abraham and being here before Abraham was here. 'Course, Jesus could have said, "Before Adam was, I am,' too, but, He didn't, which, doesn't change anything, just saying.
But, good, the Lord leads, His Spirit is in those who wish to believe, and, He's not just leading by their side, He is abiding from within, NWL, and, that is from within their heart :)
 
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danschance

Guest
Lol I guess that makes Paul pagan after all he believed it was a cross that Jesus was nailed to. Colossians 2 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to HIS CROSS;
(maybe Paul has been misquoted or misunderstood again!) sigh
To me it is a childish arguement and one that is wrong.

1) They placed a sign above His head and not His hands.

2) John 20:25 says Jesus had nails (plural) driven into His hands. This suggests a cross bar.

3) The Jews in the desert camped in the shape of a cross bnased on instructions given by God in Numbers
camp3.jpg

Either way it is unimportant how he died. Yet the JW's spend an inordinate amount of time debating it as if it were important. It is funny that on early JW literature, they used a cross and not a pole. Even on the grave of their founder, Charles Russel has a cross on it. I find that humorous.

watchtower_knights_templar.gif
Note the highlighted upper left corner. This is a cross on early JW watchtower magazines.

pyr_3.jpg

Here is the bizzare grave of Charles Russel. Note how he was buried with a cross.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,969
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Yes, I do.



Yes, I do.



I believe that he died on a Stauros or Xylon, not on a cross, but yes he was risen back to life and is one with the father as the context tells us in John 17.

I agree with all your points my friend.
I do not think you understood the question from homwardbound.
I understood him to be asking,

"Do you believe GOD Himself (Yahweh) came in the Flesh as the Messiah,
was resurrected in the Flesh, and remains in the Flesh to this day in JESUS CHRIST."


Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 
Apr 24, 2012
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And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush.
Looks like the scripture says that malek Yahweh appeared to him, but it DOES NOT say that he spoke to Moses. Which God spoke to Moses? (See 3:4 for the answer, and it was not Yahweh at first.)

Ah, I'll tell you anyway. The first one to speak to Moses was Elohim.

Ex. 3:4 When the LORD (Yahweh) saw that he (Moses) turned aside to see, God (Elohim) called unto him out of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses..

Verses 3:5 and 3:6 it is God (Elohim) speaking to Moses.
Verse 3:7 now it says the LORD (Yahweh) says he has surely seen the affliction of thy people... and LORD (Yahweh) is speaking to Moses until vs 11.

Verse 3:11 Moses said to God (Elohim)... and now God (Elohim) speaks with Moses, even to verse 14 which says:
And God (Elohim) said unto Moses, I am that I am, and he said, This shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I am hath sent me unto you.

From verses 15-to the end (22) God (Elohim) is used and The LORD God (Yahweh Elohim) is used.

Yahweh spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
Duet. 15-19 does not prove anything about malek Yahweh(a messanger of Yahweh) being the LORD (Yahweh) himself. It only proves that Yahweh was at the burning bush, it says nothing of the messenger of Yahweh. This verse mentions only Yahweh, but the burning bush scriptures (Exodus 3) mentions God (Elohim) too and malek of Yahweh (a messenger of Yahweh). So I'm not quite sure what your point is.

You do not need to prove to me that Jesus (LORD/Yahweh) is the great I AM. (John 8:56-58) I believe that. Elohim and Yahweh use their names interchangeably because they are one God.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Your knowledge of scripture is pitiful....

Looks like the scripture says that malek Yahweh appeared to him, but it DOES NOT say that he spoke to Moses. Which God spoke to Moses? (See 3:4 for the answer, and it was not Yahweh at first.)

Ah, I'll tell you anyway. The first one to speak to Moses was Elohim.

Ex. 3:4 When the LORD (Yahweh) saw that he (Moses) turned aside to see, God (Elohim) called unto him out of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses..

Verses 3:5 and 3:6 it is God (Elohim) speaking to Moses.
Verse 3:7 now it says the LORD (Yahweh) says he has surely seen the affliction of thy people... and LORD (Yahweh) is speaking to Moses until vs 11.

Verse 3:11 Moses said to God (Elohim)... and now God (Elohim) speaks with Moses, even to verse 14 which says:
And God (Elohim) said unto Moses, I am that I am, and he said, This shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I am hath sent me unto you.

From verses 15-to the end (22) God (Elohim) is used and The LORD God (Yahweh Elohim) is used.


Stephen stated that the Malek in the burning bush, WHO SPOKE TO MOSES, was both Lord and God (Act 7.30 – 33, 35, 38).

Study up...

 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,969
4,586
113
Looks like the scripture says that malek Yahweh appeared to him, but it DOES NOT say that he spoke to Moses. Which God spoke to Moses? (See 3:4 for the answer, and it was not Yahweh at first.)

Ah, I'll tell you anyway. The first one to speak to Moses was Elohim.

Ex. 3:4 When the LORD (Yahweh) saw that he (Moses) turned aside to see, God (Elohim) called unto him out of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses..

Verses 3:5 and 3:6 it is God (Elohim) speaking to Moses.
Verse 3:7 now it says the LORD (Yahweh) says he has surely seen the affliction of thy people... and LORD (Yahweh) is speaking to Moses until vs 11.

Verse 3:11 Moses said to God (Elohim)... and now God (Elohim) speaks with Moses, even to verse 14 which says:
And God (Elohim) said unto Moses, I am that I am, and he said, This shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I am hath sent me unto you.

From verses 15-to the end (22) God (Elohim) is used and The LORD God (Yahweh Elohim) is used.



Duet. 15-19 does not prove anything about malek Yahweh(a messanger of Yahweh) being the LORD (Yahweh) himself. It only proves that Yahweh was at the burning bush, it says nothing of the messenger of Yahweh. This verse mentions only Yahweh, but the burning bush scriptures (Exodus 3) mentions God (Elohim) too and malek of Yahweh (a messenger of Yahweh). So I'm not quite sure what your point is.

You do not need to prove to me that Jesus (LORD/Yahweh) is the great I AM. (John 8:56-58) I believe that. Elohim and Yahweh use their names interchangeably because they are one God.
One more time JOHNLUKE, and then I kick the dust from my feet, THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, always has been ONLY ONE GOD, and always will be ONLY ONE GOD.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (YLT)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I--I am Jehovah, And besides Me there is no saviour.
 
Oct 3, 2013
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One more time JOHNLUKE, and then I kick the dust from my feet, THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, always has been ONLY ONE GOD, and always will be ONLY ONE GOD.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (YLT)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I--I am Jehovah, And besides Me there is no saviour.
if you do not believe in the trinity then trinitarians will say yes their is only one God but that there are three parts to God one part man one part god and one part spirit so these three are all powerful :). but three beings can't be all powerful then there is none all powerful
 
Oct 3, 2013
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Re: Your knowledge of scripture is pitiful....

Stephen stated that the Malek in the burning bush, WHO SPOKE TO MOSES, was both Lord and God (Act 7.30 – 33, 35, 38).

Study up...
maybe you should study up because verse 35 says an angel in the bush appeared to Moses, but God spoke to Moses
 
Apr 24, 2012
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Re: Your knowledge of scripture is pitiful....

Stephen stated that the Malek in the burning bush, WHO SPOKE TO MOSES, was both Lord and God (Act 7.30 – 33, 35, 38).

Study up...
So you want to maintain that "a messenger" of Yahweh (LORD) is in fact both Elohim (God) and Yahweh (LORD)?

Or do you want to maintain that the messenger spoke for and in behalf of Elohim and Yahweh? But this is not what Exodus says. It is what Acts says.

Which is it?
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Re: Your knowledge of scripture is pitiful....

maybe you should study up because verse 35 says an angel in the bush appeared to Moses, but God spoke to Moses
Malek Yahweh IS God....that is what scripture states...wake up!

 
Nov 19, 2012
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Owned by scripture.

So you want to maintain that "a messenger" of Yahweh (LORD) is in fact both Elohim (God) and Yahweh (LORD)?
This is what scripture states.

Learn it...




Or do you want to maintain that the messenger spoke for and in behalf of Elohim and Yahweh? But this is not what Exodus says. It is what Acts says.
Both the OT & the NT are clear.

Malek Yahweh speaks AS Yahweh...because He IS Yahweh.

There is no 'on behalf of' in this scripture.

You have nothing.

Again.

 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,969
4,586
113
if you do not believe in the trinity then trinitarians will say yes their is only one God but that there are three parts to God one part man one part god and one part spirit so these three are all powerful :). but three beings can't be all powerful then there is none all powerful
><>t<><

NO WE WILL NOT. You have got to be kidding me!
How many times do we have to explain what we believe,
before you figure out that what your teachers told you
we believe is an erroneous mis-understanding of what we believe.

GOD IS SPIRIT.
The difference between JESUS and us,
is the human spirits in us were created by HIM,
and the Spirit in JESUS IS GOD HIMSELF,
and therefore IS THE CREATOR.

The Father is the SPIRIT called YAHWEH.
The Son is the SPIRIT called YAHWEH.
The Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT called YAHWEH.

The Flesh of Jesus Christ is HUMAN, in every way.
THE SPIRIT in Jesus CHRIST is GOD, in every way.
HE is BOTH GOD and MAN.

YES, YAHWEH IS ALL POWERFUL, ALL KNOWING, OMNIPRESENT IN SPACE AND TIME, ETERNAL, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, PERFECTLY HOLY, THE PERFECT SAVIOUR, THE ONLY DEITY THAT EXISTS, THE PERFECT JUDGE, ETC., ETC.

Your teachers told you TOTAL FALSEHOODS about what we believe.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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Many Scriptures that defend the Trinity
1 john 4:12-13
John 17:6-11
Hebrews 9:13-14
John 6:39
John 14:19
Luke 1:35
Luke 3:22
Romans 1:4

In fact the 3 parables about the Lost sheep, the Lost son, and the lost coin are one parable in Luke 15
The Father - his lost boy
The Son - his lost sheep
The Spirit his lost coin

The Lost world, the Trinity looking together

God the Father - Abrahm
God the Son - Isaac
God the Spirit - Jacon - Israel

The very way Scripture is set up - OT - Father - Gospels - Jesus - the rest of NT - Spirit

Jesus Christ Himself manifests to us what it look like to live a Holy Spirit filled life
 
Oct 3, 2013
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Re: Your knowledge of scripture is pitiful....

Malek Yahweh IS God....that is what scripture states...wake up!

yes Jehovah is God, but Jehovah is not made up of the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son-not all powerful, Jehovah is the Father-all powerful, and the Holy Spirit-is the power. These three are not one "godhead" but they are seperate