There was death before sin.
- Thread starter KelbyofGod
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Whatever stops growing, dies. Plants are alive, bugs are alive, animals are alive, humans are alive, and if any one of these stops growing, it dies. Plants wither just like bodies decay.
When you remove a head of lettuce from its life source, cut into it so that it’s leaves bleed milk, and you consume it, it is the same as doing so to an animal.
Scientists took two identical plants, and put them in two different rooms. To one they talked to it everyday. They spoke in loving tones, and played soft classical music. It thrived. To the other plant they spoke insults in angry but not loud tones, and played heavy metal music. It died.
With all the dead trees there are, I can’t believe someone don’t believe that plants die.
When you remove a head of lettuce from its life source, cut into it so that it’s leaves bleed milk, and you consume it, it is the same as doing so to an animal.
Scientists took two identical plants, and put them in two different rooms. To one they talked to it everyday. They spoke in loving tones, and played soft classical music. It thrived. To the other plant they spoke insults in angry but not loud tones, and played heavy metal music. It died.
With all the dead trees there are, I can’t believe someone don’t believe that plants die.
Jesus had a glorified body after His resurrection. He was able to receive meat but He did not require it to sustain Him.
Perhaps you could consider that Adam before the fall also did not need meat (food) to sustain him but could eat those fruits God provided to appreciate the goodness that God provided in abundance.
Adam could eat to glorify God and not as a requirement to sustain his body.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Perhaps you could consider that Adam before the fall also did not need meat (food) to sustain him but could eat those fruits God provided to appreciate the goodness that God provided in abundance.
Adam could eat to glorify God and not as a requirement to sustain his body.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
They both offered the fruit of their parents assigned labor. The younger usually had the stinkier job tending sheep like David. . Abel heard the voice of God’s faith it worked in Abel to both will and do His good pleasure
Cain like the man in Mathew 7 offered his assigned work that did not come from hearing God but rather the imagination of his own heart. Christ’s faith as a work does not come by imagining things... no matter how wonderful we think they are or could be. Christ did not say he did not perform what he boasted. He simply called him a worker of iniquity. He was not walking by the faith that does come exclusively from hearing God.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:23
Cain like the man in Mathew 7 offered his assigned work that did not come from hearing God but rather the imagination of his own heart. Christ’s faith as a work does not come by imagining things... no matter how wonderful we think they are or could be. Christ did not say he did not perform what he boasted. He simply called him a worker of iniquity. He was not walking by the faith that does come exclusively from hearing God.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:23
I might throw this idea out there too... partly so we don't just throw Cain in the "he was just a bad-guy" column... and partly so we realize how WE could make the same mistake if we're not cautious.
Cain offered first. So he started the process by doing something... but perhaps not perfectly. (most things we try, we don't get right the first time). (Think of David's first attempt at bringing the Ark home to Jerusalem...it ended with someone dead... 2 Samuel 6)
Abel probably SAW Cain present his offering and said in himself "Wow, That's a great idea! Why didn't I think of that?" and then offered a little more enthusiastically to make up for it.
Cain offered first. So he started the process by doing something... but perhaps not perfectly. (most things we try, we don't get right the first time). (Think of David's first attempt at bringing the Ark home to Jerusalem...it ended with someone dead... 2 Samuel 6)
Abel probably SAW Cain present his offering and said in himself "Wow, That's a great idea! Why didn't I think of that?" and then offered a little more enthusiastically to make up for it.
Last edited:
He took the wrong path for sure. But he was human first...wrong choices moved him into what we call the "bad guy" column. Wouldn't similar choices put us in a similar column?
And I don't mean that argumentatively. I just try to see things as if they do or could apply to me, so that I can behave better.
And I don't mean that argumentatively. I just try to see things as if they do or could apply to me, so that I can behave better.
I wasn't viewing it from any perspective other than that I was asking God if death existed (and was in operation) before sin. The topic I was praying about would only be possible if death was functional prior to sin. At the time I was praying about it, I couldn't see that death was functional prior to sin.
What God showed me first was the part about the grain of wheat needing to fall into the ground and DIE (I didn't choose that word, God did.). And I answered him "Yeah, I can see that, but people who believe that the world was created in 6 CALENDAR days will just say that God created wheat on 'Tuesday' and let it sit dormant until the day man was created (and could potentially have sinned). So how can I prove it?" That's when he showed me the stuff about eating the fruit (which system HE set up without sin). It is a proof because eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was only possible by using the system that God set up prior to that action. So God's "death by being eaten" preceded man's introduction of "death by sin".
Although some suggest that moving to a higher purpose of life (such as food being ingested by a higher life form) somehow isn't really death because it serves a higher purpose, they are saying that Jesus used the wrong word when he said a seed must DIE to get to its own god-appointed higher purpose of becoming a plant and producing much fruit. (Likewise the fruit/nut/berry/onion that is eaten dies because it ceases to be what it was before it was eaten).
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
What God showed me first was the part about the grain of wheat needing to fall into the ground and DIE (I didn't choose that word, God did.). And I answered him "Yeah, I can see that, but people who believe that the world was created in 6 CALENDAR days will just say that God created wheat on 'Tuesday' and let it sit dormant until the day man was created (and could potentially have sinned). So how can I prove it?" That's when he showed me the stuff about eating the fruit (which system HE set up without sin). It is a proof because eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was only possible by using the system that God set up prior to that action. So God's "death by being eaten" preceded man's introduction of "death by sin".
Although some suggest that moving to a higher purpose of life (such as food being ingested by a higher life form) somehow isn't really death because it serves a higher purpose, they are saying that Jesus used the wrong word when he said a seed must DIE to get to its own god-appointed higher purpose of becoming a plant and producing much fruit. (Likewise the fruit/nut/berry/onion that is eaten dies because it ceases to be what it was before it was eaten).
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
(Taking your request for a definition of death as an honest request rather than just an oppositional jab)
Because I see the possiblity of more than one kind of life, I also believe there is more than one kind of death...and each kind of death would have it's own definition...same as each kind of life has it's own definition.
BTW, If you currently don't think there are different kinds of death, please ask yourself "Is spiritual death the same as physical death?" I'm guessing you, too, actually believe there is more than one kind of death.
Your thoughts?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Because I see the possiblity of more than one kind of life, I also believe there is more than one kind of death...and each kind of death would have it's own definition...same as each kind of life has it's own definition.
BTW, If you currently don't think there are different kinds of death, please ask yourself "Is spiritual death the same as physical death?" I'm guessing you, too, actually believe there is more than one kind of death.
Your thoughts?Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Well you have arrived at the conclusion you sought. If you believe that death occurred in the garden before the fall then you would also believe that death will occur in the millennial kingdom when Christ is on the throne. You may also include death in the eternal kingdom on the earth.
I'm not going there with you. Sin brought death both Spiritual death and physical death. Gods creation was created to be eternal. Gods creation will be restored to it's eternal condition when death is destroyed by grace.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I'm not going there with you. Sin brought death both Spiritual death and physical death. Gods creation was created to be eternal. Gods creation will be restored to it's eternal condition when death is destroyed by grace.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Roger,
Thanks. That seems a very polite way of ending a topic between parties of differing views. And I will allow that to stand without pressing you towards a change of your thought on death(or no death) prior to sin.
Your suggestion that I believe death will occur in the millennial kingdom or the eternal kingdom on earth bothered me at first (because I've been trying to question assumptions rather than jumping to more of them) but then i realized that I ought to thank you because you are doing a different thing that I wish more people would do...which is realize that a concept (if true) will produce results in other areas...and that people should consider what their current belief would mean in those other areas. And you're asking me to do that. That is something I can appreciate.
As an honest and friendly challenge, I'll also point out (for your consideration) two potential future consequences of what your stance suggests. (No, you don't have to answer but are welcome to do so, if you'd like).
1. Wheat will no longer reproduce (if wheat is in the new earth) or it will require a non-"seed-to-plant" reproductive system since "seed-to-plant" requires some kind of death according to Jesus.
2. If ALL of "Gods creation will be restored to it's eternal condition when death is destroyed by grace." does that mean you believe God will resurrect and restore the animals that died to their eternal condition? (I don't actually think you believe they will, but your wording kind of makes it sound like that. And if not, then God has decided that the death of all those animals was OK/non-offensive/good and needs no restoration, even though he has the ability to restore them to an eternal condition if he so chose.)
Again, thanks for your posts.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Thanks. That seems a very polite way of ending a topic between parties of differing views. And I will allow that to stand without pressing you towards a change of your thought on death(or no death) prior to sin.
Your suggestion that I believe death will occur in the millennial kingdom or the eternal kingdom on earth bothered me at first (because I've been trying to question assumptions rather than jumping to more of them) but then i realized that I ought to thank you because you are doing a different thing that I wish more people would do...which is realize that a concept (if true) will produce results in other areas...and that people should consider what their current belief would mean in those other areas. And you're asking me to do that. That is something I can appreciate.
As an honest and friendly challenge, I'll also point out (for your consideration) two potential future consequences of what your stance suggests. (No, you don't have to answer but are welcome to do so, if you'd like).
1. Wheat will no longer reproduce (if wheat is in the new earth) or it will require a non-"seed-to-plant" reproductive system since "seed-to-plant" requires some kind of death according to Jesus.
2. If ALL of "Gods creation will be restored to it's eternal condition when death is destroyed by grace." does that mean you believe God will resurrect and restore the animals that died to their eternal condition? (I don't actually think you believe they will, but your wording kind of makes it sound like that. And if not, then God has decided that the death of all those animals was OK/non-offensive/good and needs no restoration, even though he has the ability to restore them to an eternal condition if he so chose.)
Again, thanks for your posts.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
The way things are today are very different to the way things were in Eden? It is a presumption to say that Adam ate this or that, or to say that life cycles were the same in Eden as they are today. Presumption, presumption, ...lets not presume anything.
i Know God changed a lot of things when Sin entered and also changed a lot after the flood. People lived for nearly 1000 years so life must have been different. The Garden of Eden contained the tree of Life and Angels were guarding it before the flood and it isn't on the earth today. There is much that we can presume but i know that God will restore the Earth back to it's original form and will cure the problems we have today. He will make all things new and if the new earth is as good as the original earth before sin than there was no death.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; .....
and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. ...
i Know God changed a lot of things when Sin entered and also changed a lot after the flood. People lived for nearly 1000 years so life must have been different. The Garden of Eden contained the tree of Life and Angels were guarding it before the flood and it isn't on the earth today. There is much that we can presume but i know that God will restore the Earth back to it's original form and will cure the problems we have today. He will make all things new and if the new earth is as good as the original earth before sin than there was no death.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; .....
and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. ...