There will be no Rapture!!!

[presidente]

But recall, verse 4 is saying of the Thessalonians (in their day): "in all your persecutionS and tribulationS THAT YE ENDURE [PRESENT tense]"...

... so the text goes on to say,

2Th 1:4
So G5620 that we G2248 ourselves G846 glory G2744 in G1722 you G5213 in G1722 the churches G1577 of God G2316 for G5228 your G5216 patience G5281 and G2532 faith G4102 in G1722 all G3956 your G5216 persecutions G1375 and G2532 tribulations G2347 that G3739 ye endure: G430


Which is a manifest token G1730 of the righteous G1342 judgment G2920 of God, G2316 that G1519 ye G5209 may be counted worthy G2661 of the kingdom G932 of God, G2316 for G5228 which G3739 ye G3958 ➔ also G2532 suffer: G3958


Seeing G1512 it is a righteous thing G1342 with G3844 God G2316 to recompense G467 tribulation G2347 to them that trouble G2346 you; G5209


And G2532 to you G5213 who are troubled G2346 rest G425 with G3326 us, G2257 [...]

So, back in their day, they were already experiencing "persecutionS and tribulationS" (v.4)...
[/quote]

Do you think that is relevant to the discussion? The church, which is being persecuted, will receive rest at the revelation of Jesus, when He comes. The sufferings were going on when Paul wrote the letter, when they received it, and there has been persecution throughout church history and until Jesus returns. Or do you think this has been fulfilled and that the Lord Jesus has come already?

I mean, both of us (I think) believe the time-period we call "The Tribulation Period" (occurring in the specific, future, limited years leading up to Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth) has NOT YET been in existence... Yet, the Thessalonians, back in the first century, were ALREADY experiencing "persecutionS and tribulationS ye endure"... and "they that trouble [G2346] you" [present tense].

Paul does not mention a specific tribulation period, but the church will receive rest from tribulation and justice will be doled out to persecutors at Jesus' return according to II Thessalonians 1, and the coming of the Son of Man is set after the tribulation in Matthew 24.

What scripture is there that tells us there will be a pre-trib rapture? I keep asking. Where is the answer?

Pre-tribbers assume pretrib and then assign some verses to a pretrib coming and some to the second coming. Where is the justification for saying that verses about the coming of the Lord refer to two events? Why doesn't the Bible tip us off to the idea if this is indeed the case?

 

[presidente]

Say what lol? Everyone here knows and understands that I place the Church in HEAVEN......in Rev ch 4! Seen again in Rev ch 5!

BEFORE Revelation 6 every begins!

Church is long gone and have already been raptured, therefore not even on the earth between Revelation chapters 6 thru 18.

Can you show us the scripture in Revelation that shows us this rapture taking place. That would be very helpful for your position. Without it.... why believe the rapture is pretribulation, and why not just believe the Bible?

Can you show us some other scripture that shows the rapture taking place before the second coming?

 

[Omegatime]

Can you show us the scripture in Revelation that shows us this rapture taking place. That would be very helpful for your position. Without it.... why believe the rapture is pretribulation, and why not just believe the Bible?

Can you show us some other scripture that shows the rapture taking place before the second coming?

Rev 14:15-16 Reaping of the earth

 

[Musicmaster]

Wrong. The rapture happens at the second coming according to multiple scriptures.

In the arena of verses ripped from their contexts, I can understand your belief along this line.

The problem you have, however, is that, at His return, that will be the beginning of the Millennium after He destroys and casts into Sheol all who have the mark of the beast upon them and who are unbelievers.

If the living believers are transformed at His coming at the end of the Tribulation, then there will be nobody left to go into the Millennium to have children. Those in glorified bodies do not have sex and make babies. This presents yet another unanswerable paradox in the framework of your irrational interpretation of prophecies.

Sorry, but no go...again.

MM

 

[cv5]

Can you show us the scripture in Revelation that shows us this rapture taking place. That would be very helpful for your position. Without it.... why believe the rapture is pretribulation, and why not just believe the Bible?

Can you show us some other scripture that shows the rapture taking place before the second coming?

Please exert yourself to find my HUNDREDS of my earlier posts where these scriptural references and concepts of the nature of the harpazo are duly noted on the record. I am too busy with work......to do the work you should be doing.

Speaking of record, you sound like a broken one bro. Same old denials, same red herrings, same old tired disproven feints.

 

[Musicmaster]

; ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι, the trumpet which will sound at the last day, 1 Corinthians 15:52

Not the same thing as the trumpet blown by the last of the seven angels with trumpets. The seventh bring about the seven vials, or bowls (whatever translation you are reading).

Last day of what?

The times of the Gentiles...

MM

 

[selahsays]

Say what lol? Everyone here knows and understands that I place the Church in HEAVEN......in Rev ch 4! Seen again in Rev ch 5!

BEFORE Revelation 6 every begins!

Church is long gone and have already been raptured, therefore not even on the earth between Revelation chapters 6 thru 18.

Get a clue buddy. Please PLEASE try and keep up.

Give us the exact verses in ch. 4 and 5 that prove that the church is in heaven, please.

 

[Jimbone]

1) dead easy to predict how it will happen given the present political climate in this nation called ISRAEL.
2) Scripture is closed in terms of prophecies recorded. The simple fact is that some have not yet been fulfilled.

Where is the one that says "build My temple again? This is my HUGE point. You cannot show me where a third temple is at all in His word, you HAVE to assume it. We seem to agree scripture is closed, yet closed with NO command to build a temple. To built another temple is an insult to Jesus, the whole reason for the temple was it pointed to Him. He came on time and perfectly, He said it is finished! The way is provided in full. Now please think about these two things, He hasn't commanded us to build anything but disciples, and that the idea of rebuilding the Temple is an insult to our reigning King. It just doesn't fit friend. I'm not trying to just "be right" or "win" here, I'm just saying it just doesn't fit.

 

[cv5]

Where is the one that says "build My temple again?

So it is you that should be writing the Bible all of a sudden? Good luck with that buddy.

 

[cv5]

Give us the exact verses in ch. 4 and 5 that prove that the church is in heaven, please.

Look for yourself. I have posted them DOZENS if not hundreds of times by now.
Good luck.

 

[presidente]

Incorrect.

"When Jesus comes back", the only "JUDGEMENTS" per se is the "sheep and goat judgments" of the nations. This pertaining to ISRAEL. Not the Church.

Everyone else, the enemy armies and their leaders, are "summarily executed" in effect very rapidly "when Jesus comes back". No long drawn out judgements.

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The long drawn out, escalating in intensity JUDGEMENTS/VENGEANCE/WRATH against those who are persecuting believers (consisting of war, famine, plagues, waters turned to blood, meteor strikes, wormwood, earthquakes, gigantic hail, darkness, demons from the abyss etc etc etc) all occur BEFORE the Second Coming!

Huh? Where do you get the extra coming here, the extra return of Christ. The passage talks about the coming of Jesus, and you want to invent an extra coming before the second coming. Where do you squeeze that into II Thessalonians 1?


Doesn't it bother you that you read a passage about the coming of Jesus and have to invent another coming not mentioned in the passage? And you also have to invent another mass resurrection of the saints before what the Bible calls 'the first resurrection'.

[qutoe]
This "sheep and goats judgement occurs after the 2520-th day, evidently in the 75 day period so noted in Dan 12:12.[/quote]

Show me where Jesus or an apostle said that the sheep and goats judgment occurred after the 2520th day.

Why do you insist that war, famine, plagues, waters turned to blood, meteor strikes, wormwood, earthquakes, gigantic hail, darkness, demons from the abyss etc etc etc occur WHEN JESUS COMES BACK????? They don't.

What are you talking about? You are talking about stuff that happens BEFORE Revelation 19, and doing some guessing/interpreting--- meteor strikes, for example.

Your entire model of end-times eschatology needs to be scrapped. It is an irrational incoherent unbiblical mess.

Your one to talk. You have an eschatological system, but it adds an extra return of Jesus and an extra resurrection. Just show us where the Bible teaches the return of Christ, a rapture or resurrection event occur BEFORE the tribulation, before the return of Christ.

 

[presidente]

Please exert yourself to find my HUNDREDS of my earlier posts where these scriptural references and concepts of the nature of the harpazo are duly noted on the record. I am too busy with work......to do the work you should be doing.

Speaking of record, you sound like a broken one bro. Same old denials, same red herrings, same old tired disproven feints.

I keep reading posts and not seeing any evidence of a pretrib rapture in anything you have written.

But you do boast a lot about pretribbers supposedly having presented some kind of case. I notice you like to compare the discussion to sporting events, though you don't have a leg to stand on. But if this were a game, it's more like soccer than baseball, and you'd be on the Long John Silver's team.

 

[cv5]

Huh?

Story of your eschatological life friend.
Bloody hopeless. But good luck and God bless anyways.

 

[selahsays]

Look for yourself. I have posted them DOZENS if not hundreds of times by now.
Good luck.

Ah. Just as I thought. You don’t understand the scriptures.

 

[cv5]

Ah. Just as I thought. You don’t understand the scriptures.

Bye bye forever most likely.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

What you are calling "wrath" in today's world is not the wrath of God. The word of God calls those "birth pangs" resulting from the destructive influences of sin upon creation. Even the heavens groan for release. As believing scientists, we recognize that as the playing out of the second law of thermal dynamics, which is a cause from sin, with the universe dying a slow and agonizing heat death.

Your claim that the Church will face the AC, that's a denial of what we know about the AC and the power OVER the remaining saints the AC to conquer them. If that were the Church, then God is a liar when He promised that the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against the Church. Your system of belief hinges upon only a partial picture of what is revealed to us about AC and the Day of the Lord. Your definitions simply don't align with those of scripture.

Additionally, if the mid-trib thingy were true, then that too makes God a liar because if the Lord were to return at the middle, then EVERYONE can project to the day when He will come for the Church IF the Church were still here at that time, which it won't, and yet we are told it will come as a thief in the night to those who are not watching.

Sorry, but your system just doesn't match what's written.

MM

i never said anything you accused me of.
DO YOU EVEN READ?

I never said the Church faces the AC!

where did that baloney COME FROM?


and where did I say the Church faces WRATH period?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Say what lol? Everyone here knows and understands that I place the Church in HEAVEN......in Rev ch 4! Seen again in Rev ch 5!

BEFORE Revelation 6 every begins!

Church is long gone and have already been raptured, therefore not even on the earth between Revelation chapters 6 thru 18.

Get a clue buddy. Please PLEASE try and keep up.

show me specifically in Chapter 4 where is the CHURCH?

show me specifically in Chapter 5 where is the CHURCH?

btw, elders and myriads of ANGELS [[ARE NOT]] the Church!


11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,

 

[iamsoandso]

Ah, ok. My point in all that was simply to say that I do not look to Irenaeus or any other of the ante, post, or any other era, but rather only to the writings of the apostles. I pointed out that Irenaeus did in fact teach a falsehood regarding "recapitulationism". He was fallible, and that false teaching of his proved that point.

MM

And for instance this recapitulation your referring to,,, why do you think it to be falsehood for him to say that abut Jesus(the seed)? And will you provide the portion of his writings you are disagreeing with?

 

[cv5]

show me specifically in Chapter 4 where is the CHURCH?

show me specifically in Chapter 5 where is the CHURCH?

btw, elders and myriads of ANGELS [[ARE NOT]] the Church!


11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,

Bye bye buddy.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Bye bye buddy.

i would also run away if i was you, who, each time represents an idea but CANNOT ever Prove it!

YOU SAID the CHURCH is in Chapters 4 and 5.

YOU SAID THAT!
cv5 said:
Everyone here knows and understands that I place the Church in HEAVEN......in Rev ch 4! Seen again in Rev ch 5!

SO, where is the CHURCH, in those Chapters?