There will be no Rapture!!!

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Musicmaster

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Maybe rapture in tribulation, is about the fact , that the people who prayed, and whom God chose, will be hidden in special places where no one will find them, until the world is cleansed of all evil
Well, if you choose to count yourself among them, then I wish you good luck...because the only safe haven mentioned in scripture is for the remnant Jews going out into the Jordanian desert... As an Israeli, I have no intention of remaining here on this earth to have to move over there to go out into that desert with them.

MM
 
May 6, 2024
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according to the messages sent to certain new prophets from Argentina, here at the great judgment, there will be islands of freedom, places where no one can get to, and whoever approaches with a weapon will die, ... only holy Christians with a pure soul should be led there by an angel.. they will wait out this period here
 

Nehemiah6

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according to the messages sent to certain new prophets from Argentina, here at the great judgment, there will be islands of freedom, places where no one can get to, and whoever approaches with a weapon will die, ... only holy Christians with a pure soul should be led there by an angel.. they will wait out this period here
Just ignore all this nonsense. Go by what is in the Bible.
 

Musicmaster

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according to the messages sent to certain new prophets from Argentina, here at the great judgment, there will be islands of freedom, places where no one can get to, and whoever approaches with a weapon will die, ... only holy Christians with a pure soul should be led there by an angel.. they will wait out this period here
New prophets? Hmm. There are people all over expecting to still be here, and if that's what they want, then more power to them.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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I continue to encounter some who still seem to miss this very important imagery within scripture:

Revelation 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Never, and I mean never, did the Lord ever inspire it to be written that neither the nation of Israel nor the angels were ever addressed as being kings and priests unto God. Never once, and never even hinted at. The nation Israel HAD priests, but the people themselves are never at any time referred to as priests nor kings. They WANTED an earthly king, which is a huge distinction since followers of Christ have a King...who is...what? King (Christ) of kings (the Church).

Studying the Bible in-depth rather than just reading through it is the only way one will dredge up these wondrous truths.

The Old Testament is the New Testament hidden.
The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
One book.

Those 24 elders, therefore, can ONLY be indicative of the presence of the Church in Heaven, having been a part of the First Resurrection.

Amen

MM
 

Musicmaster

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It's also written:

1 Thessalinians 5:9-11
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The Greek word translated "appointed" here means: "to decree one to be subject to wrath, 1 Thessalonians 5:9"

Now, if a judge says to me that I will not be subject to a judgement normally made in the case, then I'm not going to sit there, shaking in my boots wondering to what portion of that judgement I will be subject. No! I will not be subjected to a judgement in that case, period.

Yet there are those who say that they will have to endure until just before the "great wrath," at which point, then, allegedly THEY will be raptured, even though they like to include all the rest of us in their own demise in that period of time. No thanks. Paul said nothing about "great wrath" in the above verse to the Thessalonian believers, and given that those seals will be opened by the Hand of the Lord Himself, that is indeed still a part of His wrath upon the populations of this earth. There's no getting around this.

When the scriptures show to us the math behind the deaths in both halves of the tribulation period, in that just as many die in the first half as the second half, the fixation on that one word "great" tends to fall flat in the scheme of emphasis, although I will agree that the horrors of the second half do outweigh those in the first half, but just as many die in both halves. That too goes greatly overlooked by the pre-wrath and mid-tribber folks. In the second half, ALL the life in all the seas will die, and there won't be enough fresh water left for the people in that time.

So, as for me, I will believe in what's inspired writing as opposed to all that stuff that's from people like all those post-apostolic writers, it matter not at all what proximity they may have had to the apostles.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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I continue to encounter some who still seem to miss this very important imagery within scripture:

Revelation 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Never, and I mean never, did the Lord ever inspire it to be written that neither the nation of Israel nor the angels were ever addressed as being kings and priests unto God. Never once, and never even hinted at. The nation Israel HAD priests, but the people themselves are never at any time referred to as priests nor kings. They WANTED an earthly king, which is a huge distinction since followers of Christ have a King...who is...what? King (Christ) of kings (the Church).

Studying the Bible in-depth rather than just reading through it is the only way one will dredge up these wondrous truths.

The Old Testament is the New Testament hidden.
The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
One book.

Those 24 elders, therefore, can ONLY be indicative of the presence of the Church in Heaven, having been a part of the First Resurrection.

Amen

MM
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Immediately I was in spirit; and behold, a throne was set in heaven and upon the throne was one sitting,

3 and he that sat was like in appearance to a jasper and a sardine stone, and a rainbow round about the throne, like in appearance to an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the twenty-four thrones I saw elders sitting, clothed in white raiment, and on their head golden crowns.


Several occasions ONE of the ELDERS talks to John.

So the ELDERS are established while the Apostle John is in Patmos in 95 A.D.

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Then one of the elders addressed me
 

p_rehbein

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When that Eastern sky splits and Jesus descends in a cloud of Glory:

ALL WILL BE RAPTURED. Some unto eternal life, but most to eternal damnation.

EVERY knee will bow. EVERY tongue will confess.

Any who teach different than this are teaching a gospel other than that of Jesus.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Really?
He must have skipped all of this to claim his bold faced declaration then...
For example, this one... I don't know what else this guy wrote about the subject of eschatology, but what would you say he meant by the following part where I will BOLD the wording:
Chrysostom
If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. [...] Seest thou how great is the honor? and as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him.
Okay, so he says we'll be "caught up" (agreed... that's what 1Th4:17 indeed says)...


... but then he says of the "condemned," that they (instead will) "AWAIT the judge within [meaning, they will NOT be among those "caught up" but will remain where they are (i.e. "within")... to 'AWAIT the judge...']".
So he's CONTRASTING those who are "caught up" [movement / relocation] with those [/the 'condemned'] who will NOT "relocate" [no movement] who will "AWAIT the judge 'within' [/right where they are already located]"



My question is: unless this writer specified elsewhere his meaning here [which could be likely he does], just what does he mean by the word "AWAIT [the judge]"?? And how do you know he's referring to an instantaneous split-second moment in that phrasing?

[My point being that this QUOTE you've supplied does not seem to support what it is you are claiming he was saying (though perhaps elsewhere in his writing he does (??)]
 

FollowerofShiloh

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For example, this one... I don't know what else this guy wrote about the subject of eschatology, but what would you say he meant by the following part where I will BOLD the wording:


Okay, so he says we'll be "caught up" (agreed... that's what 1Th4:17 indeed says)...


... but then he says of the "condemned," that they (instead will) "AWAIT the judge within [meaning, they will NOT be among those "caught up" but will remain where they are (i.e. "within")... to 'AWAIT the judge...']".
So he's CONTRASTING those who are "caught up" [movement / relocation] with those [/the 'condemned'] who will NOT "relocate" [no movement] who will "AWAIT the judge 'within' [/right where they are already located]"



My question is: unless this writer specified elsewhere his meaning here [which could be likely he does], just what does he mean by the word "AWAIT [the judge]"?? And how do you know he's referring to an instantaneous split-second moment in that phrasing?
They AWAIT the 1,000 years for Judgement.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ and as an added note to the above post,

I had recently made a post in a different thread with the following verse...

"From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me in that day; but not only to me, but also to all those loving His appearing." - 2Tim4:8

... in support of the fact that the "24 elders" are shown to be wearing those ALREADY-AWARDED "stephanous / crowns" UP THERE, BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6) at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (1:1/1:19c/4:1 &22:6) time-period we commonly call the "7 yr Trib"...

...and they are shown saying "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood out-of EVERY..." (v.9)





... and there is this one:

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" - 1Pet4:17
 

TheDivineWatermark

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They AWAIT the 1,000 years for Judgement.
Who said he was talking about the "DEAD unsaved"??

At the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, don't you believe there will be "unsaved" persons STILL-LIVING AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT? (when "EVERY" eye existing on the earth "SHALL SEE HIM"... right?).
I mean, yes, my view is that Rev19:21 will apply to them, where it says "And the remnant WERE SLAIN"... but right before this happens they are still-alive on the earth when He is RETURNING (Rev19)... right??

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
See, this is where (as I've shown in many past posts):

-- Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth) CORRESPONDS with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22a[,23]...

--and is thus SEPARATED BY "TIME" (per the text) before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in this Isa text (v.22b) is carried out (i.e. at the *later* [1000-yrs later] GWTj point in the chronology)


So the Isa24 text AGREES with the Rev19-20 text, in that, there is "PUNISH" taking place at TWO DISTINCT points in the chronology (separated by "TIME" which intervenes between them). It is only the latter of these two (in Rev20:11-15) that "the DEAD [the dead unsaved of all times]" are delivered up (v.13) to stand before the GWT for that judgment (then they are "cast into the lake of fire" at that point).

But the EARLIER point in the chronology (at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot) there is ALSO "PUNISH" (when they are "still-alive" [not saying 100% of the "unsaved" are still-alive at that point, just saying the ones that ARE]), and this is how that particular "punish" goes at that point: "And the remnant WERE SLAIN" (this AGREES with the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22a, as well as many places in the Gospels). IOW, NO "unsaved" persons will ENTER the MK age.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ And besides those two points in the chronology, there is the passage speaking of a spans of time (which precedes Rev19's time-slot), which ALSO uses the "PUNISH [H6485]" wording (and no I do not see this passage as pertaining to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" as some do):

"For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish [H6485] the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." - Isaiah 26:21
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Who said he was talking about the "DEAD unsaved"??
Because from Johns own Disciples (Church Fathers) to Reformers like Calvin and Wesley all make claims the spiritually Alive and Dead happen right before Armageddon and the rest will be killed in Armageddon and all the spiritually dead will await the 1,000 years before they're judged.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Because from Johns own Disciples (Church Fathers) to Reformers like Calvin and Wesley all make claims the spiritually Alive and Dead happen right before Armageddon
^ I don't understand what you are trying to communicate in the above (underlined and bold). Would you mind perhaps re-phrasing? They "all make claims," what?

and the rest will be killed in Armageddon
Yeah, I think I said that... right.

and all the spiritually dead will await the 1,000 years before they're judged.
Fine.

But what does Chrysostom mean [not that I agree with his perspective on everything ;) ] when he (further down) says,

"When these things then are done, then also will be the voice of the Archangel shouting and commanding the Angels, and the trumpets, or rather the sound of the trumpet. What trembling then, what fear will possess those that remain upon the earth [THAT'S WHAT I JUST SAID Chrysostom meant about them "REMAINING" where they are ALREADY LOCATED--NOT "MOVING" is what Chrysostom meant by the word "WITHIN" ('await the judge WITHIN')]. For one woman is caught up and another is left behind, and one man is taken, and another is passed over. (Matthew 24:40, 41; Luke 17:34, 35.) What will be the state of their souls, when they see some indeed taken up, but themselves left behind? Will not these things be able to shake their souls more terribly than any hell?"




Now, to be clear, I do NOT see the "taken" [and "left"] verses (Mt24:40-41 / Lk17:34-35 ^ ) to be speaking of "taken in our Rapture" (I believe "taken" in these texts refers to those "taken away IN JUDGMENT" just as in Noah's day... IOW, it was NOT Noah who "knew not until," it was the UNSAVED who PERISHED in the flood judgment who "knew not until" BECAUSE they chose to DISREGARD the Word of God via Noah, who was a "preacher of righteousness," and... when "IN which" [Spirit] He spoke through the mouthpiece of Noah in the days "while the ark was a preparing" 1Pet3:20--THAT's why "THEY knew not UNTIL"... not because they didn't hear Noah preaching [/warning of judgment to come], but because they DISREGARDED the Word of God via Noah, and thus perished in the flood-judgment).



But Chrysostom is using the passages this way, and what I said (about his wording) is actually the case... that he believed once we're "caught up," the condemned "AWAIT the judge WITHIN [meaning, right where they are already located--still-living yet--on the earth--at that point]"... which he later describes as those "left behind"

(I'm NOT suggesting he meant it in the way that modern writers use the phrase "left behind"... I'm just pointing out that he is indeed speaking of those "still-living" condemned/unsaved persons at the time-slot he's referencing... and then I asked what does he mean by "AWAIT the judge..." because that could [or COULD HAVE] meant something other than an "instantaneous" split-second moment... "AWAIT" doesn't often carry such a meaning, as I see it).

And neither do I think he meant by "AWAIT the judge WITHIN" to be referring to the 1000-yr later GWTj (based on his further-down quote re: those "left behind" by which he means the "condemned" but still-living, yet--still located where they were, on the earth, at the time-slot Chrysostom was speaking of)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[ ^ ...which, by the way, doesn't agree with: when the angels will REAP and they are told to "collect ye FIRST the TARES"--Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50... which is what the disciples' LATER question to Jesus in Matt24:3 was BASED ON (what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13 re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]")... and His response follows, in 2 Chpts (24-25)--BTW, this is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture" event]
 

Musicmaster

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4
2
Immediately I was in spirit; and behold, a throne was set in heaven and upon the throne was one sitting,

3 and he that sat was like in appearance to a jasper and a sardine stone, and a rainbow round about the throne, like in appearance to an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the twenty-four thrones I saw elders sitting, clothed in white raiment, and on their head golden crowns.


Several occasions ONE of the ELDERS talks to John.

So the ELDERS are established while the Apostle John is in Patmos in 95 A.D.

7
13
Then one of the elders addressed me
Hmm. So what you're saying is that eternity is constrained or defined by time here on earth, and that everything John saw in his Heavenly vision was concurrently happening here on earth? I'm not understanding how you picked, at minimum, that one item to draw a line of concurrence.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Hmm. So what you're saying is that eternity is constrained or defined by time here on earth, and that everything John saw in his Heavenly vision was concurrently happening here on earth? I'm not understanding how you picked, at minimum, that one item to draw a line of concurrence.

MM
Good question my Friend.
I believe Jesus, the WORD made flesh, Creator of all things took 33 1/2 years + 9 months to fulfill the Messiah Prophecy that brought salvation. But it did not interrupt the process already set-up that collates to what we read in Revelation. It was established in the Beginning and just waiting in schematics of God's perfect timing. John saw something that had been in motion before Creation and remains forever.
 

Musicmaster

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Good question my Friend.
I believe Jesus, the WORD made flesh, Creator of all things took 33 1/2 years + 9 months to fulfill the Messiah Prophecy that brought salvation. But it did not interrupt the process already set-up that collates to what we read in Revelation. It was established in the Beginning and just waiting in schematics of God's perfect timing. John saw something that had been in motion before Creation and remains forever.
Well, I don't buy what you stated, in that the elders were established while John was in Patmos, any more than I would believe when someone says that the new Heavens and New Earth were established while He was at Patmos. What does that even mean? Perhaps I lack the intelligence to grasp it. If you disagree with what I stated, and that's your response, it doesn't ring clearly for me.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Well, I don't buy what you stated, in that the elders were established while John was in Patmos, any more than I would believe when someone says that the new Heavens and New Earth were established while He was at Patmos. What does that even mean? Perhaps I lack the intelligence to grasp it. If you disagree with what I stated, and that's your response, it doesn't ring clearly for me.

MM
Why wouldn't during Creation or before God not already made everything and it comes to pass in the TIME God had planned?
You limit God because your desire to be right in your theory.