There will be no Rapture!!!

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Musicmaster

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I am using the 2nd Century Greek on file not the TR from the 10th century.
That's what I thought. Ok, that clarifies the problem on what you're relying upon. The textual edits that are known to have been made with those documents is good reason for doubt upon them.

Ok, thanks.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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For that to be true, you'll have to demonstrate what "divine assembly" was ever not of the seed of man, because for them to have been redemed by the Blood of Christ, they HAD to have been guilty of sin.

Fallen angels? Nope. Can't be them since fallen angels have no redemptive promise made to them, so who are they if not those who had dwelt on this earth as men?

The text makes it so clear.

MM
I wonder if you truly went to Mishna because 6 known Divine Councils are studied in the Tanakh.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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That's what I thought. Ok, that clarifies the problem on what you're relying upon. The textual edits that are known to have been made with those documents is good reason for doubt upon them.

Ok, thanks.

MM
You're using the TR that was Latin when Erasmus translated back to Greek.

Sounds good but Jerome translated Koine Greek to Latin in 3rd century and Erasmus translated Latin to modern Greek in 12th century which is not the same because Koine Greek went extinct.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I think it's obvious people have been thinking the Elders are people who were from earth.

I did myself but reread Revelation 5 a couples of times and suddenly realized they were "never" on Earth.
Isn't this passage saying something very similar to that which Rev1:5-6 already said?:

Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



9 And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
Why aren't you seeing the people in v.9 as being the same ones being referred to in v.10?


Why are you thinking suddenly it is now referring to something other than "people" who had existed at some point on the earth?
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Isn't this passage saying something very similar to that which Rev1:5-6 already said?:

Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.





Why aren't you seeing the people in v.9 as being the same ones being referred to in v.10?


Why are you thinking suddenly it is now referring to something other than "people" who had existed at some point on the earth?
Doesn't connect to the Elders though.
 

Musicmaster

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You're using the TR that was Latin when Erasmus translated back to Greek.

Sounds good but Jerome translated Koine Greek to Latin in 3rd century and Erasmus translated Latin to modern Greek in 12th century which is not the same because Koine Greek went extinct.
Textus Receptus type manuscripts and versions have existed as the majority of texts for almost 2000 years. Erasmus collated many, many Greek New Testament manuscripts, was himself surrounded by several language translations and a multitude of verses from the commentaries and writings of Origen, Cyprian, Ambrose, Basil, Chrysostom, Cyril, Jerome, and Augustine.

So, some have argued that antiquity is the only answer to having the actual word of God, and others rely upon what is the majority of textual copies from all across Europe and other locales.

Blessedly, we are not left with the cacophony and clamorings of men, and therefore having no access to one infallible source, for there IS an infallible Source, as is pointed out by 1 John 2.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Textus Receptus type manuscripts and versions have existed as the majority of texts for almost 2000 years. Erasmus collated many, many Greek New Testament manuscripts, was himself surrounded by several language translations and a multitude of verses from the commentaries and writings of Origen, Cyprian, Ambrose, Basil, Chrysostom, Cyril, Jerome, and Augustine.

So, some have argued that antiquity is the only answer to having the actual word of God, and others rely upon what is the majority of textual copies from all across Europe and other locales.

Blessedly, we are not left with the cacophony and clamorings of men, and therefore having no access to one infallible source, for there IS an infallible Source, as is pointed out by 1 John 2.

MM
Your opinion maybe, but we know factually the official TR did not exist until Erasmus and we know his methodology because he documented everything.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Nowhere do the 24 Elders claim Jesus died for the Elders themselves but for the people on Earth.
Take a look at a post I'd put, back in 2021 (about the specific wording in v.9)... that post contains a short 9-min video (plus I spell out the main point right under the video):

Post #3334 (and a slight "correction" in Post #3335) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4577199

(and see a couple of follow-up posts: #3379 & #3380)



Would like to hear your thoughts on that. = )



______

from that post:

--"Of the 24 manuscripts available on Revelation 5... 23 of them have verse 9 saying "US" ['hast redeemed US'], whereas the other [1] manuscript leaves it blank/untranslated" (somewhere around the 3:30-min mark);

--within the first few mins of the video, Hocking tells what George Eldon Ladd says, "in his book," about Rev5:9 and what the "24 elders" are saying there, where Hocking quotes from Ladd's book (I assume from Ladd's book, not his commentary): Ladd on verse 9 - "If in fact it is 'us,' then that group is speaking about their own redemption, and must refer to the church"
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Take a look at a post I'd put, back in 2021 (about the specific wording in v.9)... that post contains a short 9-min video (plus I spell out the main point right under the video):

Post #3334 (and a slight "correction" in Post #3335) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4577199

(and see a couple of follow-up posts: #3379 & #3380)



Would like to hear your thoughts on that. = )



______

from that post:

--"Of the 24 manuscripts available on Revelation 5... 23 of them have verse 9 saying "US" ['hast redeemed US'], whereas the other [1] manuscript leaves it blank/untranslated" (somewhere around the 3:30-min mark);

--within the first few mins of the video, Hocking tells what George Eldon Ladd says, "in his book," about Rev5:9 and what the "24 elders" are saying there, where Hocking quotes from Ladd's book (I assume from Ladd's book, not his commentary): Ladd on verse 9 - "If in fact it is 'us,' then that group is speaking about their own redemption, and must refer to the church"
I noticed he says Most Church Fathers (or reference to them) believe John is saying the Elders are not referring to themselves.

I agree because most of those early Church Fathers were the literal Disciples to the guy who wrote Revelation and probably know best.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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As for my Post #3380 I'd mentioned, the Subject THAT post was covering is: Why the number "24"?

--https://christianchat.com/threads/50-reasons-for-a-pretribulational-rapture-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4577413
 

Musicmaster

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Your opinion maybe, but we know factually the official TR did not exist until Erasmus and we know his methodology because he documented everything.
1 John 2 is not "opinion." Each one here follows whatever appeals to his own authority and in appeals to antiquity, but the bottom line is that the Lord knew of all this in advance that there would come up, to this day and beyond, what He knew would require that He provide a means by which we may know the infallible truths that only He can give, and by whatever means He so chooses.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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1 John 2 is not "opinion." Each one here follows whatever appeals to his own authority and in appeals to antiquity, but the bottom line is that the Lord knew of all this in advance that there would come up, to this day and beyond, what He knew would require that He provide a means by which we may know the infallible truths that only He can give, and by whatever means He so chooses.

MM
And yet we do have a historical lineage of written materials and their journey to becoming the Bible.
 

Musicmaster

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The fact is the Elders have never been part of the Earthly creation.

These are the Elders of Psalms 82:
God stands in the divine assembly;
among the divine beings He pronounces judgment.


Most Rabbi's claim this is who God is talking to in Genesis 1:26 because verse 27 shows singular image.

And God created humankind in the divine image,
creating it in the image of God
I don't see where you think you saw 24 elders in Psalm 82.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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And yet we do have a historical lineage of written materials and their journey to becoming the Bible.
Still a non sequitur comment. That will never approach nor surpass Divine instruction that is promised irrespective of special hoops one must jump through. The written word is good for instruction, correction and rebuke, but in the finer points where there is no agreement for authoritative and infallible trustworthiness, the LORD never leaves us to flounder about blindly. Perhaps you do or do not partake of that promise, but I do. Scholars the world over, both Jews and Gentiles, all have a dog in the fight (so to speak), all clamoring for attention, and we don't need any of it.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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I noticed he says Most Church Fathers (or reference to them) believe John is saying the Elders are not referring to themselves.

I agree because most of those early Church Fathers were the literal Disciples to the guy who wrote Revelation and probably know best.
Wow! This level of allegory makes the texts so weak that they are then laid wide open to any interpretation anyone could possibly want them to say! This is amazing. The 24 elders allegedly are not talking about themselves in relation to the redemption of the Blood of Christ?

Good grief! What's next? What else will bite the dusts of allegorizing practices?

MM
 

Musicmaster

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As I study the alleged connection between the 24 elders of Revelation and places like Psalm 82, it's recognized on some sites the massive amount of contrived "complexities" and allegorization that must be applied in order to try and make those elders fit into an isolative box in order to distance them from being actual people who had lived on this earth, thus lifting them to such lofty heights so as to keep them from being relatable.

Paul must have seen this kind of nonsense cropping up among those who came after him:

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Not those who came after him through the centuries, but him and those whose company he was a part. Those who followed tried in many ways to transform the clear language of scripture into something that was distant and beyond human grasp of specifics...so much so that one can ask why it was ever inspired to be written at all if it takes these kinds of departures from the clear language to make it into something other than what we can read for ourselves. This is so reminiscent of the Inquisitors. It's like placing the cookies so high on a shelf that you keep the "brats" from getting to them so that they are kept in line.

MM
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I noticed he says Most Church Fathers (or reference to them) believe John is saying the Elders are not referring to themselves.

I agree because most of those early Church Fathers were the literal Disciples to the guy who wrote Revelation and probably know best.
[I suggest that the listeners of that video I supplied at LINK listen on a bit further than the 3-min mark :) ]



What I believe he was saying in his video was, more like:

the footnotes in many Bibles say,

...most ancient authorities agree that the word [in v.9] is them or they...

[and]

...most early manuscripts omit us in v.9 and read they and them instead of us in v.10.





(in either case, my understanding was that he is referring to the "manuscript evidence"... per the "footnotes" in many Bibles)







Then he gives explanation as to why this "footnote" information (supplied in many Bibles) is not actually factual.


That starts close to the 3-min mark and following.










[as I understand it, he did not make reference to the ECF; I tried looking up the same page of the writings of Chrysostom that I'd referred to just the other day (as you did), and found NOTHING that was written (or presented there) covering the Book of Revelation by him... for example]