Thorn on the flesh

[Guojing]

There is a rule of bible interpretation called the law of first mention. To understand what Paul is saying in this passage, let's examine previous passages where the term thorn was used.

If thorn is used in the context of people or agents at the first mention, that governs future interpretation of that term.

Numbers 33:55 King James Version (KJV)
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Joshua 23:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

Judges 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?

3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

By the law of first mention, thorns in the OT refers to people. Paul himself said the thorn is a "messenger from Satan".

But if you still want to interpret that as a physical sickness, to justify your pre-existing belief that physical healing is not part of Jesus's atonement, well, everyone has a right to his opinion.

 

[KnowMe]

There is a rule of bible interpretation called the law of first mention. To understand what Paul is saying in this passage, let's examine previous passages where the term thorn was used.

If thorn is used in the context of people or agents at the first mention, that governs future interpretation of that term.

Numbers 33:55 King James Version (KJV)
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Joshua 23:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

Judges 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?

3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

By the law of first mention, thorns in the OT refers to people. Paul himself said the thorn is a "messenger from Satan".

But if you still want to interpret that as a physical sickness, to justify your pre-existing belief that physical healing is not part of Jesus's atonement, well, everyone has a right to his opinion.

Good post I was just going to post those verses hehe, you got it, I think paul was concerned with being persecuted constantly but God said my grace is enough.

 

[TheLearner]

There is a rule of bible interpretation called the law of first mention. To understand what Paul is saying in this passage, let's examine previous passages where the term thorn was used.

If thorn is used in the context of people or agents at the first mention, that governs future interpretation of that term.

Numbers 33:55 King James Version (KJV)
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Joshua 23:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

Judges 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?

3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

By the law of first mention, thorns in the OT refers to people. Paul himself said the thorn is a "messenger from Satan".

But if you still want to interpret that as a physical sickness, to justify your pre-existing belief that physical healing is not part of Jesus's atonement, well, everyone has a right to his opinion.

Sorry friend that rule does not apply to translations from other languages, nor does it apply to separate books by different authors. What you have is a word study fallacy.

here is another well known example among many,


John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one ; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one , even as we are one :

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one ; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 10:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one .

Regarding his followers, Jesus prayed: “I make request . . . that they may all be one , just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us.”—John 17:20, 21.

Thus, when Jesus said, “I and the Father are one ,” he was speaking, not of a mysterious Trinity, but of a wonderful unity—the closest bond possible between two persons.

(The Watchtower September 2009)

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[Lanolin]

Paul was bullied /persecuted for his faith.

 

[TheLearner]

Paul was bullied /persecuted for his faith.

So? He also had health problems too.

infirmities in II Cor 12:10
From asthenes; feebleness (of mind or body); by implication, malady; morally, frailty -- disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.
Also,
Galatians 4:13 N-AFS
GRK: ὅτι δι' ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς
NAS: of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel
KJV: through infirmity of the flesh
INT: that in weakness of the flesh

1 Timothy 5:23 N-AFP
GRK: πυκνάς σου ἀσθενείας
NAS: and your frequent ailments.
KJV: thine often infirmities.
INT: frequent of you ailments

related thread here:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/law-of-first-mention.184646/

 

[KnowMe]

So? He also had health problems too.

infirmities in II Cor 12:10
From asthenes; feebleness (of mind or body); by implication, malady; morally, frailty -- disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.
Also,
Galatians 4:13 N-AFS
GRK: ὅτι δι' ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς
NAS: of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel
KJV: through infirmity of the flesh
INT: that in weakness of the flesh

1 Timothy 5:23 N-AFP
GRK: πυκνάς σου ἀσθενείας
NAS: and your frequent ailments.
KJV: thine often infirmities.
INT: frequent of you ailments

related thread here:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/law-of-first-mention.184646/

So? he was also concern with the quality or state of being infirm. So

 

[Sipsey]

Sorry friend that rule does not apply to translations from other languages, nor does it apply to separate books by different authors. What you have is a word study fallacy.

here is another well known example among many,


John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one ; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one , even as we are one :

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one ; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 10:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one .

Regarding his followers, Jesus prayed: “I make request . . . that they may all be one , just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us.”—John 17:20, 21.

Thus, when Jesus said, “I and the Father are one ,” he was speaking, not of a mysterious Trinity, but of a wonderful unity—the closest bond possible between two persons.

(The Watchtower September 2009)

You are actually quoting from the watchtower?

 

[Guojing]

You are actually quoting from the watchtower?

Oh, The Learner is from Jehovah Witness?

 

[crossnote]

That may be why I have 3 heads, fins, and tentacles.

...and one eye.

 

[maxwel]

...and one eye.

People always notice that one tiny thing you're self conscious about.

..

..

 

[Sipsey]

...and one eye.

Now, we have some context!