Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer
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From Charles Spurgeon's "All of Grace" Chapter 6. I think you might find this useful considering the debate on this thread. Apologies for it being a little long (a few pages).
CONCERNING DELIVERANCE FROM SINNING
N THIS PLACE I would say a plain word or two to those who understand the method of justification by faith which is in Christ Jesus, but whose trouble is that they cannot cease from sin. We can never be happy, restful, or spiritually healthy till we become holy. We must be rid of sin; but how is the riddance to be wrought? This is the life-or-death question of many. The old nature is very strong, and they have tried to curb and tame it; but it will not be subdued, and they find themselves, though anxious to be better, if anything growing worse than before. The heart is so hard, the will is so obstinate, the passions are so furious, the thoughts are so volatile, the imagination is so ungovernable, the desires are so wild, that the man feels that he has a den of wild beasts within him, which will eat him up sooner than be ruled by him. We may say of our fallen nature what the Lord said to Job concerning Leviathan: "Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?" A man might as well hope to hold the north wind in the hollow of his hand as expect to control by his own strength those boisterous powers which dwell within his fallen nature. This is a greater feat than any of the fabled labors of Hercules: God is wanted here.
"I could believe that Jesus would forgive sin," says one, "but then my trouble is that I sin again, and that I feel such awful tendencies to evil within me. As surely as a stone, if it be flung up into the air, soon comes down again to the ground, so do I, though I am sent up to heaven by earnest preaching, return again to my insensible state. Alas ! I am easily fascinated with the basilisk eyes of sin, and am thus held as under a spell, so that I cannot escape from my own folly."
Dear friend, salvation would be a sadly incomplete affair if it did not deal with this part of our ruined estate. We want to be purified as well as pardoned. Justification without sanctification would not be salvation at all. It would call the leper clean, and leave him to die of his disease; it would forgive the rebellion and allow the rebel to remain an enemy to his king. It would remove the consequences but overlook the cause, and this would leave an endless and hopeless task before us. It would stop the stream for a time, but leave an open fountain of defilement, which would sooner or later break forth with increased power. Remember that the Lord Jesus came to take away sin in three ways; He came to remove the penalty of sin, the power of sin, and, at last, the presence of sin. At once you may reach to the second part—the power of sin may immediately be broken; and so you will be on the road to the third, namely, the removal of the presence of sin. "We know that he was manifested to take away our sins."
The angel said of our Lord, "Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins." Our Lord Jesus came to destroy in us the works of the devil. That which was said at our Lord's birth was also declared in His death; for when the soldier pierced His side forthwith came there out blood and water, to set forth the double cure by which we are delivered from the guilt and the defilement of sin.
If, however, you are troubled about the power of sin, and about the tendencies of your nature, as you well may be, here is a promise for you. Have faith in it, for it stands in that covenant of grace which is ordered in all things and sure. God, who cannot lie, has said in Ezekiel 36:26:
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
You see, it is all "I will," and "I will." "I will give," and "I will take away." This is the royal style of the King of kings, who is able to accomplish all His will. No word of His shall ever fall to the ground.
The Lord knows right well that you cannot change your own heart, and cannot cleanse your own nature; but He also knows that He can do both. He can cause the Ethiopian to change his skin, and the leopard his spots. Hear this, and be astonished: He can create you a second time; He can cause you to be born again. This is a miracle of grace, but the Holy Ghost will perform it. It would be a very wonderful thing if one could stand at the foot of the Niagara Falls, and could speak a word which should make the river Niagara begin to run up stream, and leap up that great precipice over which it now rolls in stupendous force. Nothing but the power of God could achieve that marvel; but that would be more than a fit parallel to what would take place if the course of your nature were altogether reversed. All things are possible with God. He can reverse the direction of your desires and the current of your life, and instead of going downward from God, He can make your whole being tend upward toward God. That is, in fact, what the Lord has promised to do for all who are in the covenant; and we know from Scripture that all believers are in the covenant. Let me read the words again:
A new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give an heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 11:19).
What a wonderful promise! And it is yea and amen in Christ Jesus to the glory of God by us. Let us lay hold of it; accept it as true, and appropriate it to ourselves. Then shall it be fulfilled in us, and we shall have, in after days and years, to sing of that wondrous change which the sovereign grace of God has wrought in us.
It is well worthy of consideration that when the Lord takes away the stony heart, that deed is done; and when that is once done, no known power can ever take away that new heart which He gives, and that right spirit which He puts within us. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance "; that is, without repentance on His part; He does not take away what He once has given. Let Him renew you and you will be renewed. Man's reformations and cleanings up soon come to an end, for the dog returns to his vomit; but when God puts a new heart into us, the new heart is there forever, and never will it harden into stone again. He who made it flesh will keep it so. Herein we may rejoice and be glad forever in that which God creates in the kingdom of His grace.
To put the matter very simply—did you ever hear of Mr. Rowland Hill's illustration of the cat and the sow? I will give it in my own fashion, to illustrate our Saviour's expressive words—"Ye must be born again. " Do you see that cat? What a cleanly creature she is! How cleverly she washes herself with her tongue and her paws! It is quite a pretty sight! Did you ever see a sow do that? No, you never did. It is contrary to its nature. It prefers to wallow in the mire. Go and teach a sow to wash itself, and see how little success you would gain. It would be a great sanitary improvement if swine would be clean. Teach them to wash and clean themselves as the cat has been doing! Useless task. You may by force wash that sow, but it hastens to the mire, and is soon as foul as ever. The only way in which you can get a sow to wash itself is to transform it into a cat; then it will wash and be clean, but not till then! Suppose that transformation to be accomplished, and then what was difficult or impossible is easy enough; the swine will henceforth be fit for your parlor and your hearth-rug. So it is with an ungodly man; you cannot force him to do what a renewed man does most willingly; you may teach him, and set him a good example, but he cannot learn the art of holiness, for he has no mind to it; his nature leads him another way. When the Lord makes a new man of him, then all things wear a different aspect. So great is this change, that I once heard a convert say, "Either all the world is changed, or else I am." The new nature follows after right as naturally as the old nature wanders after wrong. What a blessing to receive such a nature! Only the Holy Ghost can give it.
Did it ever strike you what a wonderful thing it is for the Lord to give a new heart and a right spirit to a man? You have seen a lobster, perhaps, which has fought with another lobster, and lost one of its claws, and a new claw has grown. That is a remarkable thing; but it is a much more astounding fact that a man should have a new heart given to him. This, indeed, is a miracle beyond the powers of nature. There is a tree. If you cut off one of its limbs, another one may grow in its place; but can you change the tree; can you sweeten sour sap; can you make the thorn bear figs? You can graft something better into it and that is the analogy which nature gives us of the work of grace; but absolutely to change the vital sap of the tree would be a miracle indeed. Such a prodigy and mystery of power God works in all who believe in Jesus.
If you yield yourself up to His divine working, the Lord will alter your nature; He will subdue the old nature, and breathe new life into you. Put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and He will take the stony heart out of your flesh, and He will give you a heart of flesh. Where everything was hard, everything shall be tender; where everything was vicious, everything shall be virtuous: where everything tended downward, everything shall rise upward with impetuous force. The lion of anger shall give place to the lamb of meekness; the raven of uncleanness shall fly before the dove of purity; the vile serpent of deceit shall be trodden under the heel of truth.
I have seen with my own eyes such marvellous changes of moral and spiritual character that I despair of none. I could, if it were fitting, point out those who were once unchaste women who are now pure as the driven snow, and blaspheming men who now delight all around them by their intense devotion. Thieves are made honest, drunkards sober, liars truthful, and scoffers zealous. Wherever the grace of God has appeared to a man it has trained him to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present evil world: and, dear reader, it will do the same for you.
"I cannot make this change," says one. Who said you could? The Scripture which we have quoted speaks not of what man will do, but of what God will do. It is God's promise, and it is for Him to fulfill His own engagements. Trust in Him to fulfill His Word to you, and it will be done.
"But how is it to be done?" What business is that of yours? Must the Lord explain His methods before you will believe him? The Lord's working in this matter is a great mystery: the Holy Ghost performs it. He who made the promise has the responsibility of keeping the promise, and He is equal to the occasion. God, who promises this marvellous change, will assuredly carry it out in all who receive Jesus, for to all such He gives power to become the Sons of God. Oh that you would believe it! Oh that you would do the gracious Lord the justice to believe that He can and will do this for you, great miracle though it will be! Oh that you would believe that God cannot lie! Oh that you would trust Him for a new heart, and a right spirit, for He can give them to you! May the Lord give you faith in His promise, faith in His Son, faith in the Holy Spirit, and faith in Him, and to Him shall be praise and honor and glory forever and ever! Amen.
CONCERNING DELIVERANCE FROM SINNING
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Hi G-7,
The concept of “dying to self” is found throughout the New Testament. It expresses the true essence of the Christian life, in which we take up our cross and follow Christ. Dying to self is part of being born again; the old self dies and the new self comes to life (John 3:3–7). Not only are Christians born again when we come to salvation, but we also continue dying to self as part of the process of sanctification. As such, dying to self is both a one-time event and a lifelong process.
Jesus spoke repeatedly to His disciples about taking up their cross (an instrument of death) and following Him. He made it clear that if any would follow Him, they must deny themselves, which means giving up their lives—spiritually, symbolically, and even physically, if necessary. This was a prerequisite for being a follower of Christ, who proclaimed that trying to save our earthly lives would result in our losing our lives in the kingdom. But those who would give up their lives for His sake would find eternal life (Matthew 16:24–25; Mark 8:34–35). Indeed, Jesus even went so far as to say that those who are unwilling to sacrifice their lives for Him cannot be His disciples (Luke 14:27).
The rite of baptism expresses the commitment of the believer to die to the old, sinful way of life (Romans 6:4–8) and be reborn to a new life in Christ. In Christian baptism, the action of being immersed in the water symbolizes dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection. Baptism identifies us with Christ in His death and resurrection, portraying symbolically the whole life of the Christian as a dying to self and living for and in Him who died for us (Galatians 2:20).
Paul explains to the Galatians the process of dying to self as one in which he has been “crucified with Christ,” and now Paul no longer lives, but Christ lives in him. Paul’s old life, with its propensity to sin and to follow the ways of the world, is dead, and the new Paul is the dwelling place of Christ who lives in and through him. This does not mean that when we “die to self” we become inactive or insensible, nor do we feel ourselves to be dead. Rather, dying to self means that the things of the old life are put to death, most especially the sinful ways and lifestyles we once engaged in. “Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires” (Galatians 5:24). Where we once pursued selfish pleasures, we now pursue, with equal passion, that which pleases God.
Dying to self is never portrayed in Scripture as something optional in the Christian life. It is the reality of the new birth; no one can come to Christ unless he is willing to see his old life crucified with Christ and begin to live anew in obedience to Him. Jesus describes lukewarm followers who try to live partly in the old life and partly in the new as those whom He will spit out (Revelation 3:15–16). That lukewarm condition characterized the church of Laodicea as well as many churches today. Being “lukewarm” is a symptom of unwillingness to die to self and live for Christ. Death to self is not an option for Christians; it is a choice that leads to eternal life. https://www.gotquestions.org/dying-to-self.html
Andrew Farley and Womac are both preachers of grace gone too far.
In their world there is only being in Christ with no effort, because effort is
sinful.
It is like getting in a car and saying you can get to were you want to go
but you cannot turn on the engine and use the accelerator or gears.
It would paralyse the whole operation and make it pointless.
Now who wants to paralyse Gods people? It is not Christ.
Similarly it is the same as going to church to just worship and not communicate
or love anyone in the congregation. Why come to church at all, because it denies
the love and ministry we are called to have one to another.
In their world there is only being in Christ with no effort, because effort is
sinful.
It is like getting in a car and saying you can get to were you want to go
but you cannot turn on the engine and use the accelerator or gears.
It would paralyse the whole operation and make it pointless.
Now who wants to paralyse Gods people? It is not Christ.
Similarly it is the same as going to church to just worship and not communicate
or love anyone in the congregation. Why come to church at all, because it denies
the love and ministry we are called to have one to another.
SO.....when PAUL said the following as a SAVED child of God what exactly did he mean......where do you think the sin came from?
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
WHEN JESUS said there was NONE GOOD BUT GOD while there were saved, immersed disciples and Apostles on the planet what did he mean...?
WHEN JOHN, as a SAVED child of GOD said the following what did he mean...?
IF WE say that WE have no sin, WE are deceived and the truth is not in US. <---Present tense and the use of WE and US places himself in the same grouping.....
See...the problem is those who fail to acknowledge the truth about sin....it will be present with us until the day we get a glorified body....this is not to say we should live like the devil and or however we please....BELIEVERS fail and SIN....end of story...NO ONE EXCEPT JESUS could KEEP the law 24/7/365 their whole life....WAKE UP PEOPLE
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
WHEN JESUS said there was NONE GOOD BUT GOD while there were saved, immersed disciples and Apostles on the planet what did he mean...?
WHEN JOHN, as a SAVED child of GOD said the following what did he mean...?
IF WE say that WE have no sin, WE are deceived and the truth is not in US. <---Present tense and the use of WE and US places himself in the same grouping.....
See...the problem is those who fail to acknowledge the truth about sin....it will be present with us until the day we get a glorified body....this is not to say we should live like the devil and or however we please....BELIEVERS fail and SIN....end of story...NO ONE EXCEPT JESUS could KEEP the law 24/7/365 their whole life....WAKE UP PEOPLE
Hey desertrose,
I understand the teaching about "dying to self" as I grew up with it being taught.
The truth is that we have already died with Christ on the cross and we have followed Christ to that cross. We have no life now apart from Him - for we have died and our life in hidden with Christ in God now. Col. 3:3
In the very same manner Christ died on the cross - we too died with Him.
Is Christ dying to Himself now? If Jesus is still dying to Himself - then so are we. We have the same likeness of His death and of His resurrection. Knowing this - the old self has been crucified with Christ.
Romans 6:4-11 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
There is no such thing as a gradual dying of one self. That is a religious concept passed on from our church teachings.
Gal.5:24 "have crucified the flesh " is in the Aorist indicative which means a one time event in the past. It's a done deal.
Gal. 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ " is in the perfect passive.
Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.
Passive means something was being done to you - you are not doing it.
Religion has taught us "to die to ourselves" but the truth is we are already dead. Paul says that we are "alive unto God now". Christ's life lives in us.
We actually should be "living unto God from our true selves". Religion always gets things backwards and tries to get people to do things that Christ has already done in His work.
IMO this "dying to ourselves" is one of the worst doctrines as it denies what happened to the believer when they received Christ. We should be living from our new creation in Christ which is not denying ourselves - in reality - it is living from who we really are in Christ. He is our life.
Now, there is a renewing of the mind as we see the truths of what happened to us in Christ. We still have the flesh to deal with which has the power of sin still in it but it is not the real us. Rom. 7:14-22. The new creation in Christ joined as one spirit with Him is the real us. We are to live from here.
I understand that this is different then what we were taught in some of our church teachings and I had initially a hard time with it because of my mind but as I sought the Lord on this - He began to show me the reality of the truth that I am really a new creation and knowing that I live unto God now and "not try to die to myself" has changed my whole Christian life and walk with the Lord to take it to a level I never even thought existed.
Anyway - I encourage you to enquire of the Lord about it. Bless you
I understand the teaching about "dying to self" as I grew up with it being taught.
The truth is that we have already died with Christ on the cross and we have followed Christ to that cross. We have no life now apart from Him - for we have died and our life in hidden with Christ in God now. Col. 3:3
In the very same manner Christ died on the cross - we too died with Him.
Is Christ dying to Himself now? If Jesus is still dying to Himself - then so are we. We have the same likeness of His death and of His resurrection. Knowing this - the old self has been crucified with Christ.
Romans 6:4-11 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
There is no such thing as a gradual dying of one self. That is a religious concept passed on from our church teachings.
Gal.5:24 "have crucified the flesh " is in the Aorist indicative which means a one time event in the past. It's a done deal.
Gal. 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ " is in the perfect passive.
Perfect tense =The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. This is continuously happening in the present.
Passive means something was being done to you - you are not doing it.
Religion has taught us "to die to ourselves" but the truth is we are already dead. Paul says that we are "alive unto God now". Christ's life lives in us.
We actually should be "living unto God from our true selves". Religion always gets things backwards and tries to get people to do things that Christ has already done in His work.
IMO this "dying to ourselves" is one of the worst doctrines as it denies what happened to the believer when they received Christ. We should be living from our new creation in Christ which is not denying ourselves - in reality - it is living from who we really are in Christ. He is our life.
Now, there is a renewing of the mind as we see the truths of what happened to us in Christ. We still have the flesh to deal with which has the power of sin still in it but it is not the real us. Rom. 7:14-22. The new creation in Christ joined as one spirit with Him is the real us. We are to live from here.
I understand that this is different then what we were taught in some of our church teachings and I had initially a hard time with it because of my mind but as I sought the Lord on this - He began to show me the reality of the truth that I am really a new creation and knowing that I live unto God now and "not try to die to myself" has changed my whole Christian life and walk with the Lord to take it to a level I never even thought existed.
Anyway - I encourage you to enquire of the Lord about it. Bless you
Youre correct in saying that we cannot be perfect. We will fail when we try to do so with our own power. That is exactly what Romans 7 says that under the law you can't do it you will always fail. But Romans 6 says how we can do it. We can do it by being crucified with him. Romans 7:1 states that the law is only binding on a man during his life time. If we are crucified it no longer has any affect on us.
Am am I saying I don't sin whatsoever? No, I do sin sometimes but it is not my nature to sin. Adam and Eve sinned and had no sin nature. So it's possible to sin even though it is not out nature to. You can look in the bible and Romans 7 is the only part of it that hints at a sin nature in believers. But is to show the contrast of the law and grace.
Am am I saying I don't sin whatsoever? No, I do sin sometimes but it is not my nature to sin. Adam and Eve sinned and had no sin nature. So it's possible to sin even though it is not out nature to. You can look in the bible and Romans 7 is the only part of it that hints at a sin nature in believers. But is to show the contrast of the law and grace.
I think it's in the understanding and usage of the term "nature" that can throw us off. I believe we Christians have only one "true identity" or nature as in our identity and it is the nature of God in the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
There is still the flesh and the members of our body has the power of sin in it. That is not our true identity or nature from which we are to live from but from our spirit. I had posted a few times about this "law or principle of sin in our body still in it." I'll see if I can find it.
There is still the flesh and the members of our body has the power of sin in it. That is not our true identity or nature from which we are to live from but from our spirit. I had posted a few times about this "law or principle of sin in our body still in it." I'll see if I can find it.
What did JESUS mean when he said....The Spirit is indeed willing but the flesh is weak?......for the record...I am saying clearly that NO ONE is above or without SIN....We cannot deny the words of PAUL, JESUS, JOHN etc.....we have a born again spirit that is born of incorruptible seed, that does not sin and always seeks to do what is right....we also have a dead body of flesh that is not subject unto the law of God and neither indeed can be....we will pack this sinful, dead flesh until the day we die or get a glorified body......the whole point of this thread is aimed AT ALL who claim to be sinless and or a sinless perfectionist which states they NEVER SIN....NO WHERE do I or anyone advocate a lifestyle of sin or a do as you please attitude.....just a proper perspective.....
If we say that we have NO sin, we are deceived and the truth is not in us....
DO YOU SEE the flip side of that.....TO HAVE THE TRUTH IN YOU and NOT BE DECEIVED ONE MUST ADMIT that they HAVE SIN IN THEM...JUST AS PAUL did above in the verses I referenced.....
Now the question...Where does the sin reside in us that occasionally pops it's head up and then we sin and fail?
If we say that we have NO sin, we are deceived and the truth is not in us....
DO YOU SEE the flip side of that.....TO HAVE THE TRUTH IN YOU and NOT BE DECEIVED ONE MUST ADMIT that they HAVE SIN IN THEM...JUST AS PAUL did above in the verses I referenced.....
Now the question...Where does the sin reside in us that occasionally pops it's head up and then we sin and fail?
Found it! The understanding of this has changed my walk with the Lord in my understanding of my union and thus my communion with Him as well as not having sin dominate me. This took about 7 months before I could get my mind to agree with what I knew to be true in my spirit and then we still have to walk it out in our every day lives.
Romans 7 shows the two conflicts that are going on in a believer. One is not real them ( not their true nature ). The flesh even though it stems from the corrupted Adamic influence in the world is now not the real us.
The flesh and the law of sin in our body - it wages war against the real us in Christ.
The flesh is ways to think and act that we use to find life and meaning that are how the world thinks and "were" the manner of living we had when we were in Adam but now are left over when the old man died on the cross with Christ. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )
Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the power of sin in it ).
[SUP]18[/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man) do not want, I (new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
italics = my words
Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13
We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the law of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."
We do not have "2 selves" we have the true self in Christ and we still have the flesh. Even though the flesh manifests "itself" with "it's" lusts through our bodies - it is not the real us in Christ.
The flesh and the law of sin work together to "deceive us" to try to live by our own selves and carnal desires which bring nothing but death and destruction to us. These can bring up thoughts from within us to our minds but we cast those down.
We are still responsible for the deeds done in the body as they will affect our life here on this earth. Sin is destructive and will destroy us and those around us if we don't walk by the spirit - our true selves in Christ.
As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil a and none of these are us.
We are not of the world, nor the flesh, nor the devil.
The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them and now we just need to walk in the truth of this!
Romans 7 shows the two conflicts that are going on in a believer. One is not real them ( not their true nature ). The flesh even though it stems from the corrupted Adamic influence in the world is now not the real us.
The flesh and the law of sin in our body - it wages war against the real us in Christ.
The flesh is ways to think and act that we use to find life and meaning that are how the world thinks and "were" the manner of living we had when we were in Adam but now are left over when the old man died on the cross with Christ. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )
Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the power of sin in it ).
[SUP]18[/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man) do not want, I (new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
italics = my words
Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13
We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the law of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."
We do not have "2 selves" we have the true self in Christ and we still have the flesh. Even though the flesh manifests "itself" with "it's" lusts through our bodies - it is not the real us in Christ.
The flesh and the law of sin work together to "deceive us" to try to live by our own selves and carnal desires which bring nothing but death and destruction to us. These can bring up thoughts from within us to our minds but we cast those down.
We are still responsible for the deeds done in the body as they will affect our life here on this earth. Sin is destructive and will destroy us and those around us if we don't walk by the spirit - our true selves in Christ.
As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil a and none of these are us.
We are not of the world, nor the flesh, nor the devil.
The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them and now we just need to walk in the truth of this!
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I'm not sure what exactly Jesus meant when he said those words but he hadn't yet been crucified. So technically they couldn't be crucified with him yet and they didn't have the Holy Spirit residing in them. And I'm not perfect by my own works. I'm perfect because he made me so. 2 cor. 5:21 says God made him who knew no sin to be sin so that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Christ became sin so I could be God's righteousness.
Where does the sin come from? Well like Eve it comes from believing a lie. Believing that God doesn't know what's best for us. Or like Adam who would rather have the praise of Eve than God. We do live in a perverted world but that does not mean that a perverted nature still resides in me.
Where does the sin come from? Well like Eve it comes from believing a lie. Believing that God doesn't know what's best for us. Or like Adam who would rather have the praise of Eve than God. We do live in a perverted world but that does not mean that a perverted nature still resides in me.
Yeah, You might want to rethink the bolded....
If Jesus was doing the work he was doing by the power of the Spirit how do out suppose the disciples cast out demons, healed the sick, raised the dead etc.....the Holy Spirit indwells every believer at the moment of belief.....the only thing that took place in ACTS was the empowering of the Church as the Holy Spirit took the place of JESUS....DAVID even speaks of the Holy SPIRIT and HIS presence in the Psalms and it alluded to and identified by the anointing and the use of the OIL.....
That's true the Holy Spirit has always been and will always be. But Jesus himself said if I do not leave the Holy Spirit will not come. (John 16:7) Did Jesus mean that the Holy Spirit wasn't there? No, but he could not reside inside of us.
As far as the other thing bolded I don't know why I need to rethink it. Eve listened to Satan and believed his lie that God did not want the best for her and that he was holdin out. It wasn't try. She believed a lie.
As far as the other thing bolded I don't know why I need to rethink it. Eve listened to Satan and believed his lie that God did not want the best for her and that he was holdin out. It wasn't try. She believed a lie.
JESUS was leading the 1st church (identified as such 2 times in present tense) Jesus cannot be physically in more than one place at a time....the Holy Spirit took his place so each CHURCH in every location would have a guide.....there is no proof of your assertion in bold, yet there are scriptures that allude to my point...both in the N.T. and the O.T.
EVE was deceived and the bible states that SIN came by ONE MAN not EVE....and sin does not come by believing a lie....sin comes when men are drawn away of their own lust and when lust conceives it brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death (separation)<---1st John
EVE was deceived and the bible states that SIN came by ONE MAN not EVE....and sin does not come by believing a lie....sin comes when men are drawn away of their own lust and when lust conceives it brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death (separation)<---1st John
Ok, why did Jesus have to leave then? If the holy spirit was already here and could reside in us?? Why didn't Jesus simply stay here with us?
So you are saying Eve did not sin? Even though she knowingly disobeyed God? If that is not sin could you define sin for me? And lust is the desire for something forbidden, etc. I looked it up in blue letter bible. Eve desired something forbidden, the knowledge of good and evil. It conceived, because she was deceived and believed that it would be better to have that knowledge than obey God. She then sinned and death was the consequence.
So you are saying Eve did not sin? Even though she knowingly disobeyed God? If that is not sin could you define sin for me? And lust is the desire for something forbidden, etc. I looked it up in blue letter bible. Eve desired something forbidden, the knowledge of good and evil. It conceived, because she was deceived and believed that it would be better to have that knowledge than obey God. She then sinned and death was the consequence.
The human race stands in ADAM...he was the first man....and it says EVE was deceived and in the transgression....ADAM'S death passed upon EVE as well.....ADAM knew he was sinning, EVE was beguiled
NOW think...why was Jesus born of a Virgin without man's SEED, and JESUS was SINLESS and never sinned...and his sacrifice was acceptable unto GOD....
JESUS had to leave to go to the FATHER so as to sit at the right hand making intercession for men.....
NOW think...why was Jesus born of a Virgin without man's SEED, and JESUS was SINLESS and never sinned...and his sacrifice was acceptable unto GOD....
JESUS had to leave to go to the FATHER so as to sit at the right hand making intercession for men.....
