Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer
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I don't do any of the things you say above. Honest mistakes do happen however.
I reread the O.P.
We have had a few threads lately that reject the fact that as a believer we occasionally fail and sin....The bible speaks to this...the only ones who reject this for the most part are those who
a. Believe they can lose salvation
b. Believe they must do good to keep it
c. Believe they must blend faith, works and be sinless after salvation
It seemed to me that the ones WHO REJECT THIS for the most part, was speaking to what they rejected...that we fail and sin
NOT that for THE MOST PART they'd have to believe a, b or c.
It's an honest mistake. I also don't like being misquoted.
If apologies are in order, I apologize.
But I meant it as I explained it.
I reread the O.P.
We have had a few threads lately that reject the fact that as a believer we occasionally fail and sin....The bible speaks to this...the only ones who reject this for the most part are those who
a. Believe they can lose salvation
b. Believe they must do good to keep it
c. Believe they must blend faith, works and be sinless after salvation
It seemed to me that the ones WHO REJECT THIS for the most part, was speaking to what they rejected...that we fail and sin
NOT that for THE MOST PART they'd have to believe a, b or c.
It's an honest mistake. I also don't like being misquoted.
If apologies are in order, I apologize.
But I meant it as I explained it.
Hey...yeah My last statement was not necessarily aimed at you, but rather a few others and was just making a point....and you seemed to get it the first round hahah no biggie
Originally Posted by FranC
The O.P. is a little off because here, up above, you say that everyone you meet who believes in sinless perfection must believe ONE OF THE FOLLOWING , a, b, or c from the O.P.
In the O.P., it makes it sound like the person who believes in sinless perfection must believe all three.
It might just be me...
In the O.P., it makes it sound like the person who believes in sinless perfection must believe all three.
It might just be me...
This explanation of the op has a problem
All amenians do not believe they cannot loose their salvation.
They are not sinless perfectionists.
It means the criteria is just a means to create division.
All Christians believe in doing good as the outflow of their changed hearts.
To say there is a way of separating works from faith, is absurd.
I think this list demonstrates how extreme and out of touch this group is
and how divisive. They get angry when people do not agree with them and
claim everything is being twisted when in reality they find it impossible to see
things from more than one perspective.
It is this reality that shows they are not free or secure in their position, and it
is driven by hurt and resentment from their past, where to a person they have
had a long history of being part of a legalistic style church
All amenians do not believe they cannot loose their salvation.
They are not sinless perfectionists.
It means the criteria is just a means to create division.
All Christians believe in doing good as the outflow of their changed hearts.
To say there is a way of separating works from faith, is absurd.
I think this list demonstrates how extreme and out of touch this group is
and how divisive. They get angry when people do not agree with them and
claim everything is being twisted when in reality they find it impossible to see
things from more than one perspective.
It is this reality that shows they are not free or secure in their position, and it
is driven by hurt and resentment from their past, where to a person they have
had a long history of being part of a legalistic style church
To anyone who wants to know Jesus, just read the bible and take Him at His word.
Many will claim they have special knowledge with the right teacher everything
will become known, but all you need is faith and the Holy Spirit with an open
heart.
Halleluyah that from eternity He came to purchase us into eternity to be with
Him, Amen.
Many will claim they have special knowledge with the right teacher everything
will become known, but all you need is faith and the Holy Spirit with an open
heart.
Halleluyah that from eternity He came to purchase us into eternity to be with
Him, Amen.
AMEN to this...........the bible is clear, John is clear and covers this and uses WE, WE, WE, and US to accurately describe those who deny having sin in a present tense.....and includes himself in each use of the word......his conclusion...
Those who deny it are deceived and have no truth...all I need to know about those who deny sin in their lives....!
Those who deny it are deceived and have no truth...all I need to know about those who deny sin in their lives....!
Dcontroversal,
I don't know anybody who says they don't sin. This is new to me.
Just to let you know where I stand, I'm not a legalist but believe in Grace and not the Law, but that would require some explaining since we are also required to follow the moral law. We can't trample the decalogue or the two great commandments --- same thing. The last covers all.
I was on a thread once titled: Are we sinners?
It was a great question and something I had never thought about. Of course we're sinners!
But then what separates us from "sinners" (not born again people).
Are we a sinner or not?
I like how Mailmandan explained it. I can't look for his post, this thread is too far gone.
A preacher he knows said: We are POSITIONALLY in Christ NOT sinners
But we are PRACTICALLY still sinners.
I think this is the best we're going to get...
How about this:
By NATURE we are no longer sinners but we will Always sin till the day we die.
Before we became born again we tended toward our sin nature, now that we are born again, we will still sin, but we will NOT tend toward our sin nature, but toward what God would want by listening to the Holy Spirit.
This does not mean we always will.
Sorry I missed this thread...
I don't know anybody who says they don't sin. This is new to me.
Just to let you know where I stand, I'm not a legalist but believe in Grace and not the Law, but that would require some explaining since we are also required to follow the moral law. We can't trample the decalogue or the two great commandments --- same thing. The last covers all.
I was on a thread once titled: Are we sinners?
It was a great question and something I had never thought about. Of course we're sinners!
But then what separates us from "sinners" (not born again people).
Are we a sinner or not?
I like how Mailmandan explained it. I can't look for his post, this thread is too far gone.
A preacher he knows said: We are POSITIONALLY in Christ NOT sinners
But we are PRACTICALLY still sinners.
I think this is the best we're going to get...
How about this:
By NATURE we are no longer sinners but we will Always sin till the day we die.
Before we became born again we tended toward our sin nature, now that we are born again, we will still sin, but we will NOT tend toward our sin nature, but toward what God would want by listening to the Holy Spirit.
This does not mean we always will.
Sorry I missed this thread...
The problem I have with this statement is the definitive statement of certainty about sin
"we will always sin" "we will NOT tend toward our sin nature"
We are creatures under Gods authority, in His kingdom.
The point of entry is faith and washing with the desire to walk as Jesus walked.
We claim rights by faith, and buy into the transforming nature of the cross in our hearts.
Is not believing we can never be free from sin, a denial of the very faith one is beginning
in? There is a vast difference between saying we know Paul and the apostles walked
righteously, and we desire to do the same, and one day in faith we will, and no it is
all a mysterious failure made clean by the soap of grace.
Do not get me wrong, love is a very strange, elusive thing, and how Christs love works out
in our lives is not a simple here are things to believe, say and do, it is a walk, it is the Holy
Spirit walking in our hearts. What I have grown in, is to know love changes us, and we can
only say today our struggles are this or that, what they will be next year, only the Lord knows.
Many people who appear to hate this idea, often appear people who shut out their emotions
and heart from the Lord, which makes me suspect this is the limit on their walk.
So God is waiting for us to reach out in faith and believe the cross will deliver His people
in truth and reality into righteousness, walked by His people.
"we will always sin" "we will NOT tend toward our sin nature"
We are creatures under Gods authority, in His kingdom.
The point of entry is faith and washing with the desire to walk as Jesus walked.
We claim rights by faith, and buy into the transforming nature of the cross in our hearts.
Is not believing we can never be free from sin, a denial of the very faith one is beginning
in? There is a vast difference between saying we know Paul and the apostles walked
righteously, and we desire to do the same, and one day in faith we will, and no it is
all a mysterious failure made clean by the soap of grace.
Do not get me wrong, love is a very strange, elusive thing, and how Christs love works out
in our lives is not a simple here are things to believe, say and do, it is a walk, it is the Holy
Spirit walking in our hearts. What I have grown in, is to know love changes us, and we can
only say today our struggles are this or that, what they will be next year, only the Lord knows.
Many people who appear to hate this idea, often appear people who shut out their emotions
and heart from the Lord, which makes me suspect this is the limit on their walk.
So God is waiting for us to reach out in faith and believe the cross will deliver His people
in truth and reality into righteousness, walked by His people.
Last edited:
We usually agree so I read this twice.
Yes. I agree with my original statement that we will always sin. I think you take this to be my appoval of sin, or maybe that saying this encourages sin.
We transform our mind daily. Read Romans 12:1-3
There's very little we can offer God, the creator of the universe. We can offer Him ourselves. So we present our body a living sacrifice. This means that we take everything we do from when we wake up to when we go to sleep and present it to God as a living sacrifice --- we place it at the foot of the cross as an offering of love.
These are our works, which many deny, even going to work and raising children is a "work" when done unto God since without God everything is of no value.
The transformation changes us from the inside out. It starts in the heart and works its way to the exterior where most anyone can see that we're trying to live in the Kingdom. (Mathew 5)
We are to recognize what God wants from us and just do it. When we serve God, He will always bring out the best in us.
So Paul and the Apostles walked righteously. Does this mean they never sinned??
We walk in God's righteousness, does this mean we will never sin?
Jesus said to be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect. Did He mean this literally? Or is it a striving??
Mathew 5:48
It has to be a striving because Jesus also said, Only Our Father In Heaven Is Good.
Mark 10:18
So, yes, I agree with you that love changes us. Jesus said to love our neighbor as ourselves. To love God first. That pretty much covers all the moral law. But can we expect perfection at some point in our lives? I don't think so.
If you do, I will not argue that point with you. God speaks to us individually and as a Group. Perhaps in your case this is what he's telling you to strive for. Perhaps in your case this is what is necessary.
This is not something we should be debating. I am NOT limited in my walk because of this. I also believe in loss of salvation, just so you understand me. We MUST DO the best we possibly can.
We no longer walk by flesh, but by the Spirit of God. We still have a sin nature though --- which is kept under submission by the Holy Spirit.
I know monks who live about 45 minutes from my house. They go to confession regulary.
Why do you think that is? Please answer this. Think about it.
Yes. I agree with my original statement that we will always sin. I think you take this to be my appoval of sin, or maybe that saying this encourages sin.
We transform our mind daily. Read Romans 12:1-3
There's very little we can offer God, the creator of the universe. We can offer Him ourselves. So we present our body a living sacrifice. This means that we take everything we do from when we wake up to when we go to sleep and present it to God as a living sacrifice --- we place it at the foot of the cross as an offering of love.
These are our works, which many deny, even going to work and raising children is a "work" when done unto God since without God everything is of no value.
The transformation changes us from the inside out. It starts in the heart and works its way to the exterior where most anyone can see that we're trying to live in the Kingdom. (Mathew 5)
We are to recognize what God wants from us and just do it. When we serve God, He will always bring out the best in us.
So Paul and the Apostles walked righteously. Does this mean they never sinned??
We walk in God's righteousness, does this mean we will never sin?
Jesus said to be perfect like our Father in heaven is perfect. Did He mean this literally? Or is it a striving??
Mathew 5:48
It has to be a striving because Jesus also said, Only Our Father In Heaven Is Good.
Mark 10:18
So, yes, I agree with you that love changes us. Jesus said to love our neighbor as ourselves. To love God first. That pretty much covers all the moral law. But can we expect perfection at some point in our lives? I don't think so.
If you do, I will not argue that point with you. God speaks to us individually and as a Group. Perhaps in your case this is what he's telling you to strive for. Perhaps in your case this is what is necessary.
This is not something we should be debating. I am NOT limited in my walk because of this. I also believe in loss of salvation, just so you understand me. We MUST DO the best we possibly can.
We no longer walk by flesh, but by the Spirit of God. We still have a sin nature though --- which is kept under submission by the Holy Spirit.
I know monks who live about 45 minutes from my house. They go to confession regulary.
Why do you think that is? Please answer this. Think about it.
This is a very good question. I have believed in being in the world but not part of it.
I do not believe in monasticism and the self denial they follow.
I think there problem is the seeing need and the heart of another constrained by their limitations
rather than focusing on where we are as people. If you over analyse you end up in self
condemnation because the focus is on an artificial goal.
Have you ever tried not to do something by continually thinking about it, or but doing something
totally different? It is no surprise by constantly focusing on the wrong things you make them
stronger.
You can show if you distract the mind on to other things, even pain can be blocked out.
So my reason for aspiring to the walk of the apostles because Paul calls us to this, as well as Christ.
And more recently my mind has been opened up to see in faith the meanings that I missed.
Coming on cc also highlighted people are defeated by things that should not be a problem, but
they assume this is what being a christian is. A lot of things the Lord has done in me, have changed
how I feel about my limitations, and encouraged me to share more and not expect failure but
victory in His name. In His Kingdom we only have the limits we place on what is possible.
Our King is God.
I do not believe in monasticism and the self denial they follow.
I think there problem is the seeing need and the heart of another constrained by their limitations
rather than focusing on where we are as people. If you over analyse you end up in self
condemnation because the focus is on an artificial goal.
Have you ever tried not to do something by continually thinking about it, or but doing something
totally different? It is no surprise by constantly focusing on the wrong things you make them
stronger.
You can show if you distract the mind on to other things, even pain can be blocked out.
So my reason for aspiring to the walk of the apostles because Paul calls us to this, as well as Christ.
And more recently my mind has been opened up to see in faith the meanings that I missed.
Coming on cc also highlighted people are defeated by things that should not be a problem, but
they assume this is what being a christian is. A lot of things the Lord has done in me, have changed
how I feel about my limitations, and encouraged me to share more and not expect failure but
victory in His name. In His Kingdom we only have the limits we place on what is possible.
Our King is God.
I agree. Sometimes it is the terms we use to describe things that can cause confusion. Unfortunately the NIV translated the flesh as "sinful nature" which is their own bias on the meaning and thus that term is used all the time by some Christians - I see that in their newest translation they have fixed that error
We as an "identity" are a new creation in Christ -w e have anew heart created in righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4:24. That is our true nature and our true selves. When we die and go to be with the Lord - the flesh will not be going with us. We will however get a new body one day.
We still have the flesh which is the old ways that we use to find life and meaning in this earth. But the flesh is not us. We are still responsible with what we do in these bodies but scripture only talks about the new creation using the term "nature" by describing the divine nature we have now in Christ.
2 Peter 1:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Here is an excellent teaching on this if you are interested in this sort of thing.
[video=youtube;vRwok6bfzrU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRwok6bfzrU[/video]
We as an "identity" are a new creation in Christ -w e have anew heart created in righteousness and holiness. Eph. 4:24. That is our true nature and our true selves. When we die and go to be with the Lord - the flesh will not be going with us. We will however get a new body one day.
We still have the flesh which is the old ways that we use to find life and meaning in this earth. But the flesh is not us. We are still responsible with what we do in these bodies but scripture only talks about the new creation using the term "nature" by describing the divine nature we have now in Christ.
2 Peter 1:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Here is an excellent teaching on this if you are interested in this sort of thing.
[video=youtube;vRwok6bfzrU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRwok6bfzrU[/video]