Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

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Nov 22, 2015
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So a person, MR X, becomes a true believer. Then as time goes by he slacks off concerning the pursuit of the things of God. He doesn't read his bible anymore, doesn't worship, and helps nobody. This slide (backslide) happens over a period of 20 years). The is then led away through desire and enticed, and this brings forth sin. He rapes little children (paedophile) in his old age.

Now, doe this believer, who committed his life to the Lord as a young man, end up in heaven?

Did Christ save him or does he save himself? If we can answer that question - then we will know about what true salvation is based on or more accurately based in a "Whom."

If this Mr X's salvation is based on him - he's a goner. Of course everyone of us is in the same boat as Mr. X because all of us must produce the righteousness of Christ and that only comes by grace through faith. It is a gift of God in Christ.


I do believe that there will be fruit of some sort in all believers lives if Christ is in fact in them. There is a problem with "fruit inspectors" as in man's eyes and not through God's eyes.

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!


 
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Dec 12, 2013
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And if he DOESN'T repent? And doesn't ask forgiveness? Can he go to heaven?

In fact if we are to believe other posters here, the first sinners prayer was all that was needed to ask for forgiveness. Since they cannot lose salvation anymore, there is no more need to ask forgiveness. See how silly this starts to sound.
About as silly as denying

Whatsoever God does, it is EVERLASTING.

The words...eternal, sealed unto the day of redemption, I will finish what I started, I will lose nothing, but raise it up in the last day, nothing can separate me from the love of God, I am in the Father's Hand and in the Hand's of Christ, He that began a good work in you will bring it to completion .....

You, like many, conflate salvation with fellowship
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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And if he DOESN'T repent? And doesn't ask forgiveness? Can he go to heaven?

In fact if we are to believe other posters here, the first sinners prayer was all that was needed to ask for forgiveness. Since they cannot lose salvation anymore, there is no more need to ask forgiveness. See how silly this starts to sound.
what is silly is people don't seem to get that NOT EVERYONE WHO CLIAMS TO BE A BELIEVER IS ONE. they are many who try to act like they are saved, but In reality, they are not.

why can't some just accept this and leave the judgement up to God???
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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God sees our hearts, and will judge us accordingly. If one does not repent, that is between him or her, and God. He sees whether we are remorseful or rebellious and will take that into account..


And if he DOESN'T repent? And doesn't ask forgiveness? Can he go to heaven?

In fact if we are to believe other posters here, the first sinners prayer was all that was needed to ask for forgiveness. Since they cannot lose salvation anymore, there is no more need to ask forgiveness. See how silly this starts to sound.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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John also states, "IF we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us".....

so which is it....?

BOTH

It is the spirit that has been born of incorruptible seed, the spirit is eternally saved, sealed and does not sin

The spirit is still bound in a lost, fallen dead body of sin that is weak.

Paul covers this as well......and concludes that when he does things contrary it is not him doing it, but SIN that dwells in him (his flesh)
You need to understand the progression of Romans 6 , 7, 8.

The spirit is INCORRUPTIBLE. This comes alive when a person is born again.
The FLESH is TOTALLY CORRUPT. This will only be fully "fixed" when we get our new bodies one day.
THE SOUL is where the DECISION is made. Do I serve the Spirit? Or do I serve the Flesh?

Through Jesus, we now have the possibility to serve the Lord and live by the Spirit. This is NOT AVAILABLE to the unbeliever. Yet if you choose to serve the flesh, you HAVE TO REPENT and ask forgiveness. And repentance, by the way, is to stop, turn around and walk back to the Lord in his ways. Not continuing down a path of destruction.

If not, you make your own bed.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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what is silly is people don't seem to get that NOT EVERYONE WHO CLIAMS TO BE A BELIEVER IS ONE. they are many who try to act like they are saved, but In reality, they are not.

why can't some just accept this and leave the judgement up to God???
I guess I am doomed...I view myself like the following...

a. Be merciful unto me a sinner
b. I am not worthy that the Lord should come under my roof and into my house
c. I am like the dog that licks from the crumbs that fall from the master's table
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You need to understand the progression of Romans 6 , 7, 8.

The spirit is INCORRUPTIBLE. This comes alive when a person is born again.
The FLESH is TOTALLY CORRUPT. This will only be fully "fixed" when we get our new bodies one day.
THE SOUL is where the DECISION is made. Do I serve the Spirit? Or do I serve the Flesh?

Through Jesus, we now have the possibility to serve the Lord and live by the Spirit. This is NOT AVAILABLE to the unbeliever. Yet if you choose to serve the flesh, you HAVE TO REPENT and ask forgiveness. And repentance, by the way, is to stop, turn around and walk back to the Lord in his ways. Not continuing down a path of destruction.

If not, you make your own bed.
Oh...I missed that one........come on dude....you think this is grade 1 Sunday school with puppets and dollar bills taped under the seat?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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what is silly is people don't seem to get that NOT EVERYONE WHO CLIAMS TO BE A BELIEVER IS ONE. they are many who try to act like they are saved, but In reality, they are not.

why can't some just accept this and leave the judgement up to God???
Sometimes we have been so religiously taught and brain-washed that the truths that are in Christ's perfect work for us become a mess.

These religiously taught church teachings that we hear all our lives become an enormous stronghold in our un-renewed minds. We have perverted the gospel of the grace of God so much that when we actually do hear of Christ's perfect work - then it conflicts with our church teachings -- and our minds go AWOL.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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God sees our hearts, and will judge us accordingly. If one does not repent, that is between him or her, and God. He sees whether we are remorseful or rebellious and will take that into account..


I cannot get over the following.....Where sin abounds, grace did much more abound....

Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world....he said the debt was paid in full (it is finished)

Either he paid my sin debt and his righteousness was applied to me by faith the day I believed or not.....end of story...

GRACE abounds ahead of my SIN and he MEDIATES for me eternally.........
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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I cannot get over the following.....Where sin abounds, grace did much more abound....

Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world....he said the debt was paid in full (it is finished)

Either he paid my sin debt and his righteousness was applied to me by faith the day I believed or not.....end of story...

GRACE abounds ahead of my SIN and he MEDIATES for me eternally.........
[h=3]Dead to Sin, Alive to God[/h]6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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[h=3]Trained by Saving Grace[/h][SUP]Titus 2v11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?[/QUOTE]

What part of the following do you not understand.....there is a difference between

a. A willful lifestyle of continual sin
b. A believer who fails and sins
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Trained by Saving Grace

[SUP]Titus 2v11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Obviously....so a question....

Do you sin?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
do we have another sinless person here??

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Does anyone here live up to this standard?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Obviously....so a question....

Do you sin?
Yes I do. I have sinned. I do still fall. I judge myself (judge yourself lest you be judged) and I turn away from that which displeases the Lord. I repent and ask forgiveness. And God restores.

My leaning is towards His truth.

Now....

If I had a change of mind...and said to myself (that little voice) "Hey, I'm saved. There is NOTHING THAT I CAN DO TO LOSE MY SALVATION....well, then from this point on I can do pretty much whatever I please (Satanism 101 - do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law).
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Sometimes we have been so religiously taught and brain-washed that the truths that are in Christ's perfect work for us become a mess.

These religiously taught church teachings that we hear all our lives become an enormous stronghold in our un-renewed minds. We have perverted the gospel of the grace of God so much that when we actually do hear of Christ's perfect work - then it conflicts with our church teachings -- and our minds go AWOL.
I heard a man in a particular (works based religion) say one time...

If it was good enough for my daddy and my grandpa it is good enough for me.....

He had no concept of scripture, did not study, go to church etc......and to my knowledge had no professed belief other than the religion his family was a part of was good enough for him......

A few years later he tried to get a hold of me to speak to his son who was going off the deep end, he never got me and finally got a hold me about 2 months after his son was killed in Little Rock Arkansas.......My guess....Tyler is not liking where he is at right now

Tragic for sure!
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Here is an assignment for you. I want you to go to the Family forum, and read some of the threads in there on adultery, divorce, porn, etc. Then go to the Testimonies forum and see how people in there got delivered from some of those same things. :) People here seem to think that Christians can't and don't sin. Well yeah, they DO. A swear word that pops out when you hit your thumb with a hammer, or a quick lustful thought when a hot guy or woman goes past you. These are actions that Christians DO carry out.. We may die to sin when we are saved, but obviously since we ARE human and WILL be tempted to sin, that compulsion to sin will rear it's ugly self from time to time..

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yes I do. I have sinned. I do still fall. I judge myself (judge yourself lest you be judged) and I turn away from that which displeases the Lord. I repent and ask forgiveness. And God restores.

My leaning is towards His truth.

Now....

If I had a change of mind...and said to myself (that little voice) "Hey, I'm saved. There is NOTHING THAT I CAN DO TO LOSE MY SALVATION....well, then from this point on I can do pretty much whatever I please (Satanism 101 - do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law).
AND your view is where most miss the mark....NONE of us believe that....nor do we practice that....so.....what is your point?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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The problem with the false grace doctrine is what Jude warned against.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[SUP][b][/SUP] and our Lord Jesus Christ.