Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[PeterJens]

I have been thinking about gb9 continual remark about the mark.

There is no real mark, because everything is founded on the relationship and do we
know what love is bounded by absolute power. To our way of thinking Christ should
have brought the world to total submission, but the battle of power has already been
won and never lost. Everything is about the heart, and can we in the Holy Spirit
walk as Jesus walked.

This is hard, very hard, because it challenges us about our loyalties, our focus, what
we care about and want, and in what order.

But many here think, believe success is in failure. The truth is we are failures without
Christ, lost, empty, without focus, but in the Lord we are victorious, overcomers, salt and
light, fragile and yet unstoppable.

It has always been about waiting upon the Lord, and knowing His will through the gift of
faith, because if you know His heart, whatever you ask, it will be given unto you.

Jesus said where His love dwells openly among His people there He is.
So look for that love willingly shared.

 

[wsblind]

8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.

Just stop and think. think. Think.Now stop and take a breath. Think again. Think.

Paul is telling us to put on the breastplate and our helmet.

How do we put on a helmet, which is arguably the most important piece of our armor, that we don't have yet?

It should read like this from your theology....

But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love. And your future helmet of salvation will be ready for you in the eternal state.

We will most assuredly need that helmet to fight and protect us in heaven after we die!

 

[PeterJens]

Walking In the light has more to do with your honesty about who you are as a fallen man in need of a savior than it is about your personal holiness that you think will get you thru the gate.

Walking in the light is just about honesty before the Lord and the brethren.
And yes this does bring about repentance, confession and healing.

The problems in people are not that complicated or the power that binds them.
People are so alone and silent about the issues within, when they start to know
people truly love them as family and can start to share and be loved in Christ
and as a part of His body things change.

We are built for loving community, care and sensitivity. We were never built
for the violent aggressive world we find ourselves thrust into which destroy us
from the inside out.

Now to me it is only a blind man who things I am trying to justify myself before
the Lord when I am speaking His words and His truth. He is the gate and the way.
And to walk the way you need all the beatitudes worked into your life and heart.

It is why Jesus both taught it and the apostles walked it. Wealth was irrelevant to
them, it was always about behaviour and the message of the Kingdom.

And you cannot walk in the beatitudes unless you open up your heart and get real
with what is within. Without this and the Holy Spirit it will all be fake, which
explains why the idea it is all a joke to show it cannot be done has been invented.

And with wealth and safety people will believe it, because it costs nothing and justifies
their success and self indulgence.

But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
Luke 6:24-26

If you are still bound in sin, how can you claim to know the power of God
to set you free?

 

[Sirk]

I have been thinking about gb9 continual remark about the mark.

There is no real mark, because everything is founded on the relationship and do we
know what love is bounded by absolute power. To our way of thinking Christ should
have brought the world to total submission, but the battle of power has already been
won and never lost. Everything is about the heart, and can we in the Holy Spirit
walk as Jesus walked.

This is hard, very hard, because it challenges us about our loyalties, our focus, what
we care about and want, and in what order.

But many here think, believe success is in failure. The truth is we are failures without
Christ, lost, empty, without focus, but in the Lord we are victorious, overcomers, salt and
light, fragile and yet unstoppable.

It has always been about waiting upon the Lord, and knowing His will through the gift of
faith, because if you know His heart, whatever you ask, it will be given unto you.

Jesus said where His love dwells openly among His people there He is.
So look for that love willingly shared.

God has always used the weak vs the strong. Wonder why this is? He uses people who aren't ready for the task He gives them.

 

[wsblind]

Walking in the light is just about honesty before the Lord and the brethren.
And yes this does bring about repentance, confession and healing.

The problems in people are not that complicated or the power that binds them.
People are so alone and silent about the issues within, when they start to know
people truly love them as family and can start to share and be loved in Christ
and as a part of His body things change.

We are built for loving community, care and sensitivity. We were never built
for the violent aggressive world we find ourselves thrust into which destroy us
from the inside out.

Now to me it is only a blind man who things I am trying to justify myself before
the Lord when I am speaking His words and His truth. He is the gate and the way.
And to walk the way you need all the beatitudes worked into your life and heart.

It is why Jesus both taught it and the apostles walked it. Wealth was irrelevant to
them, it was always about behaviour and the message of the Kingdom.

And you cannot walk in the beatitudes unless you open up your heart and get real
with what is within. Without this and the Holy Spirit it will all be fake, which
explains why the idea it is all a joke to show it cannot be done has been invented.

And with wealth and safety people will believe it, because it costs nothing and justifies
their success and self indulgence.

But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you,
for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
Luke 6:24-26

If you are still bound in sin, how can you claim to know the power of God
to set you free?

You know something Peter? We just don't bring this up because we know it doesn't matter. BUT,I will do it.

I would not be afraid to be in a contest for a year with you and have our sin compared. I bet you I would come out cleaner than you.

And you think I am bound in sin. And my theology causes sin.

I bet you I would look cleaner than you.

 

[Sirk]

You know something Peter? We just don't bring this up because we know it doesn't matter. BUT,I will do it.

I would not be afraid to be a contest for a year with you and have our sin compared. I bet you I would come out cleaner than you.

And you think I am bound in sin. And my theology causes sin.

I bet you I would look cleaner than you.

We brought this couple into our band. I went and watched them play one weekend before they started with us. It was horrible. The guys guitar tone sucked...their PA was atrocious. I thought we would give them a try. The core of my band always got to rehearsal first and we would warm up and it always sounded great. As soon as those two showed up, it to heck in a handbasket. Finally one night the girl flips out about how bad the sound is. (Btw, I have a 6000 dollar PA system). Finally I just said look, it's you two, the gear you guys bring is suitable for a bedroom player and your vocal processor maybe a good one but you have no idea how to use it and in the context of a band it sounds like arse. She said, "We've been doing this for 30 years". I said, exactly, you've been doing it wrong for 30 years and we are done here. Nice to meet you guys....good luck....bye.

 

[Sirk]

We brought this couple into our band. I went and watched them play one weekend before they started with us. It was horrible. The guys guitar tone sucked...their PA was atrocious. I thought we would give them a try. The core of my band always got to rehearsal first and we would warm up and it always sounded great. As soon as those two showed up, it to heck in a handbasket. Finally one night the girl flips out about how bad the sound is. (Btw, I have a 6000 dollar PA system). Finally I just said look, it's you two, the gear you guys bring is suitable for a bedroom player and your vocal processor maybe a good one but you have no idea how to use it and in the context of a band it sounds like arse. She said, "We've been doing this for 30 years". I said, exactly, you've been doing it wrong for 30 years and we are done here. Nice to meet you guys....good luck....bye.

I think the point is that people get comfortable in their perception of how they sound and don't really consider how it sounds to others. Some people just never turn on their ears.

 

[PeterJens]

You know something Peter? We just don't bring this up because we know it doesn't matter. BUT,I will do it.
I would not be afraid to be in a contest for a year with you and have our sin compared. I bet you I would come out cleaner than you.
And you think I am bound in sin. And my theology causes sin.
I bet you I would look cleaner than you.

The problem is I am not talking about this.
I suppose what this proves is we have very different perspectives.

This has nothing to do with proof, it never did.

If the Kingdom was about what you claim, then the bible is not Gods word.
I know how hard it is to read something that contradicts ones heart.
But I also know what happens when the Lord anoints His word to my heart.

And in the end it does not matter how much you perceive or not it is obvious
where you heart lies. God bless you in your walk, wherever it might lead you,

Peter

 

[gb9]

I have been thinking about gb9 continual remark about the mark.

There is no real mark, because everything is founded on the relationship and do we
know what love is bounded by absolute power. To our way of thinking Christ should
have brought the world to total submission, but the battle of power has already been
won and never lost. Everything is about the heart, and can we in the Holy Spirit
walk as Jesus walked.

This is hard, very hard, because it challenges us about our loyalties, our focus, what
we care about and want, and in what order.

But many here think, believe success is in failure. The truth is we are failures without
Christ, lost, empty, without focus, but in the Lord we are victorious, overcomers, salt and
light, fragile and yet unstoppable.

It has always been about waiting upon the Lord, and knowing His will through the gift of
faith, because if you know His heart, whatever you ask, it will be given unto you.

Jesus said where His love dwells openly among His people there He is.
So look for that love willingly shared.

the English Biblical terms translated as sin or syn from the Biblical greek and jewish terms sometimes oringinate from words in the latter languages denoting the act or state of missing the mark, the original sense of N.T. greek......

this is not my opinion peter, it is FACT.

 

[JIMBO43]

8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.

Theese are daily practices,,, to me anyways

We are told to die to self daily..

We are told to put on our faith daily.

we are told to keep the faith.

we are told to keep on the narrow path.

we are told to put on out helmet of hope.

This is black and white of the truth....it is not pink and white,,, it is not a fantasy tale...

It is the truth...

If you deny the truth you also deny sin in the believer...

 

[JIMBO43]

I am not denying the truth so therefor i do deny sin in the believer on this instance but does anyone else...?

Now i can deny that i dont need to practice good works,,, but to me that would be a sin,, and i would not recieve salvation...

Because the lord calls us to practice what we preach,,, if we dont believe that we are unbelievers of the truth FOR NOT PRACTICING GOOD WORKS THEN THAT IS THE TRUE MEANING OF A DENIAR...

We are then deniars of the truth,,, we then in return come up with a saying blameing others with its you who deny sin not me..

 

[JIMBO43]

To be honest mate you interpret one way I the other.

You ask me to think about it and pray for it.

I have done that, spent many many hours looking at both sides. And I am sure you have.

You say I deny the word of God and I say you do and I don't think we say it to each other in a condescending way.
You have asked me to think about it and pray for it and I the same to you.

We are not enemies and I would say I don't want to be your enemy.

You love Jesus, I love Jesus. You want others to walk in Christ and so do I. We love our brothers and want the best for them in Christ.

We have that in common.

Peter and Paul had a fallout. Peter said

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Lets just make sure we don't go in a way that leads people down the road to their own destruction.

That destruction is not placing their faith in Jesus.

Just so you know I won't got at you but am willing to discuss with you.

Afterall you are my brother in Christ and I yours.

if this was peter talking to paul,, where is pauls answer ?..

Now i may be wrong but if peter reconises that some will press the self destruct button (the believer)..

Isnt it fare to say that we should hope that we dont ?.

And thanks for your warm words.. unlike those here who claim i am satanic..

 

[PeterJens]

You know something Peter? We just don't bring this up because we know it doesn't matter. BUT,I will do it.

I would not be afraid to be in a contest for a year with you and have our sin compared. I bet you I would come out cleaner than you.

And you think I am bound in sin. And my theology causes sin.

I bet you I would look cleaner than you.

I thought about this a bit more. Paul, Peter and the apostles faced lots of believers
who said, "How do we appoint leaders? Who is living a good life and who is failing?"
"What examples should we follow in life style?"

And Pauls answer is "Follow mine as I follow Christs"
"An elder should be ..."

These are examples, opportunities to say, this is not a good example but this is.
It is not based on failure or sin, but success and victory, dynamically expressing
love and compassion in the real world.


"we know it doesn't matter"

So how you live doesn't matter. So this is the whole point of the argument.
Sinning is the way of the flesh, it is the way of death, it is defeat and being lost.

You deny all of Pauls writings. Life a "Holy, pure life".
"You are not under condemnation because you walk according to the Spirit"

The way you walk demonstrates the Spirit that dwells within you.
It is the silent testimony that speaks to the world, not by words but by actions.
It is the light on the hill.

Yet for you it does not matter.

Thankyou for declaring what we have been saying all along.

You deny the walk and Jesus and scripture all in one go.

 

[PeterJens]

the English Biblical terms translated as sin or syn from the Biblical greek and jewish terms sometimes oringinate from words in the latter languages denoting the act or state of missing the mark, the original sense of N.T. greek......
this is not my opinion peter, it is FACT.

Imagine going into an exam, and the pass mark is how well you know the examiner
and not how well you do the exam.

Now if you are a good book learner you will scribble away and always come up with
some good answer, and yet always fail.

Now the guys who care less about the questions but realise their lives fail but in
Christ they can have the power to succeed if they admit failure and put their trust
in Christ, open up their hearts and walk in His love flowing within, find eternity.

Now you are right about failing the exam, but not about passing it, because your
heart is hard. Paul is saying love is the power of victory, knowing we are defeated
in ourselves at a profound level, to break, to be broken, to have no pride or sense
of I can do anything but bow at the foot of the cross that is the start, that is
the middle and that is the end. It is a state of being.

And as you walk you find things of sin fall away, concerns about this world become
less important. It is Christ and reaching out to others, to express and to know His
Spirit flowing between hearts and minds in praise of the King.

 

[gb9]

Imagine going into an exam, and the pass mark is how well you know the examiner
and not how well you do the exam.

Now if you are a good book learner you will scribble away and always come up with
some good answer, and yet always fail.

Now the guys who care less about the questions but realise their lives fail but in
Christ they can have the power to succeed if they admit failure and put their trust
in Christ, open up their hearts and walk in His love flowing within, find eternity.

Now you are right about failing the exam, but not about passing it, because your
heart is hard. Paul is saying love is the power of victory, knowing we are defeated
in ourselves at a profound level, to break, to be broken, to have no pride or sense
of I can do anything but bow at the foot of the cross that is the start, that is
the middle and that is the end. It is a state of being.

And as you walk you find things of sin fall away, concerns about this world become
less important. It is Christ and reaching out to others, to express and to know His
Spirit flowing between hearts and minds in praise of the King.

whatever. I gave you a clear definition of what the Bible calls sin, and you ignore it.

if you do not agree with Biblical truth, take it up with those who wrote it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

whatever. I gave you a clear definition of what the Bible calls sin, and you ignore it.

if you do not agree with Biblical truth, take it up with those who wrote it.

Hey bro.

When you set a standard and demand others live it, You have to water down the law and what sin is. Otherwise, you realize real fast you can not live up to that standard..

I would not expect them to know what sin is until they first repented. And realize also what true salvation and justification and redemption is.

 

[PeterJens]

whatever. I gave you a clear definition of what the Bible calls sin, and you ignore it.
if you do not agree with Biblical truth, take it up with those who wrote it.

Here is the problem. God declares people righteous on two issues.
The first is knowing Him, and the second is walking in His ways.

Sin is defined through the law, though in truth it is always an approximation.
Obedience is also about the heart and actually loving people.

Now your version of faith is we can never walk in obedience to God, so we
trust in Christ alone. It continues in failure and sin, without resolution, except
getting an imputed clearance.

Our version is Christ changes our hearts so we can walk pleasingly in the Lord,
a life worthy of Christ.

If you cannot get to the walk of Christ, ever, then ofcourse failure is irrelevant,
because one failure is as big as total failure on every level. It is the legalists
nighmare, no commitment as to why the law is there or what love and righteousness
actually are, it is just we are in defeat, and we realise this more day after day.

But most of what Paul is writing about is about the walk, the path, walking in
the Spirit without condemnation, because ones walk is pleasing to God.

It struck me how in our language we can say through the cross we gain the
righteousness of Christ. This can mean imputed righteousness, ie we are still
failed sinners, but counted righteous, or we actually are empowered to literally
walk righteously. Paul implies exactly that, we are empowered to walk righteously
as unto the Spirit.

So whatever mark you want to put up, God is saying His people can reach it.

I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God.
Phil 4:18

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
Rom 12:1

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Cor 7:1

But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
James 1:25

The truth is you see what you look for is scripture.
If you want to ignore perfection, holiness, being acceptable, you can easily do this.
But not reading scripture and just have faith in your head is another sure way to
go astray.

 

[Grace777x70]

And this below is the difference between "works righteousness" and "faith righteousness" for salvation. ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die because we are one spirit with the Lord )

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do".


Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " that we already have now in our new creation ( the inner man ) is because we are in Christ - will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly in our behavior. The Greek word for "awake" means "to come to one's true self, to sober up"

As we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord - the Holy Spirit transforms us.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

 

[PeterJens]

I love this practice session into defining true faith.

1. We accept we are failed sinners
2. We accept Jesus leads the way to life
3. We accept forgiveness and transformation through faith and obedience
4. We follow Christs example and lifestyle

Now some seem to suggest to undermine the power of an obedient life to
say you are only obedient to earn salvation from God.

Now I have met people like this, born and bred in church to show the best side
of a believers life. But this is just legalism or humanism, the belief good behaviour
is enough by itself.

There is though another way, through faith in Christ and transformation through
the cross, love empowers us to walk as Jesus walked.

A large group feel excluded by this victorious goal, and so settle for I walk as
best I can, but I will never succeed, but that is ok, because I am in Christ.

Now in part this is true, but without the faith to complete the walk into Christs
likeness, it is futile.

It is not possible to understand how God makes us different, you just experience
it as you go along. But the fact you know it is happening is why you know the
gospel is the power of God to salvation.

To deny this is to actually preach a different gospel, which ends in a dead end
of failure.

 

[PeterJens]

How do I know fundamentally a different gospel is being preached?

Because their religious teachings tell them they are the enemy and refuse to
have fellowship or accept the spiritual experiences of others.

It runs so deep they would rather say these are experiences of evil spirits than
the truth of the gospel and the redeeming work of Christ in a believers life.

Some go so far as to say, we are just religious people with verses but have
wicked hearts, and continually lie and deceive. This is all hard to take on board
because what is driving it is their failure in their lives and nothing that is actually
being shared. So for the world to be as they deem it, we must be evil defeated
people overwhelmed by the same problems they are having.

That is the power of observational bias. They see what they want to see.
Equally with verses they only see what they want to see, because to actually
see the words and what they mean would leave them in too much condemnation
and failure.