Thou art the christ, the son of the living God.

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#21
fair enough. do you know if Jesus The Rock is ever called Petros? or is He Petra?

but NO ONE (EXCEPT ROME), including Carson, has ever believed Jesus built his Church on Peter the man. if you can direct me to Carson saying so, i'd appreciate it.

its just an excuse for apostolic succession. the Apostles laid the foundation already. we don't need a pope.

1 Corinthians 3
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

love you DS
zonest.
Also, Scripture is clear. Christ is the cornerstone (rock) on which the church (foundation) is laid. The apostles and prophets are the foundation stones. Of which none is more important, or has more authority than the other. The rest of the churhc is built up on this foundation, built on Christ. Founded by the apostles and prophets (including peter) and continuing today.

Peter can not be the rock it is built on. Peter is but a man, and man is flawed. If the hcurhc was built on Peter it would be flawed. It is built on Christ. The cornerstone who keeps the whole building from crashing.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#22
Also, Scripture is clear. Christ is the cornerstone (rock) on which the church (foundation) is laid. The apostles and prophets are the foundation stones. Of which none is more important, or has more authority than the other. The rest of the churhc is built up on this foundation, built on Christ. Founded by the apostles and prophets (including peter) and continuing today.

Peter can not be the rock it is built on. Peter is but a man, and man is flawed. If the hcurhc was built on Peter it would be flawed. It is built on Christ. The cornerstone who keeps the whole building from crashing.
AMEN.
and we do not keep tearing down, overthrowing or rebuilding that first foundation.
whether via papacy or NAR.

once for all delivered (Jude).
 

life4ever

Junior Member
Jan 16, 2011
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#23
The Truth is that The Revelation that Peter got from above is what Jesus is speaking of. On The ROCK of realizing that Jesus is The Christ is what Jesus is building His Church on. This Revlation did not come from people telling Peter or from Peter reading about who Jesus is, but from above. From The Father in Heaven. This Power is available for everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ, The Son of The Living God.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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#24
Also, Scripture is clear. Christ is the cornerstone (rock) on which the church (foundation) is laid. The apostles and prophets are the foundation stones. Of which none is more important, or has more authority than the other. The rest of the churhc is built up on this foundation, built on Christ. Founded by the apostles and prophets (including peter) and continuing today.

Peter can not be the rock it is built on. Peter is but a man, and man is flawed. If the hcurhc was built on Peter it would be flawed. It is built on Christ. The cornerstone who keeps the whole building from crashing.
Actually, as it's been pointed out in this thread. The Scripture is quite clear that Our Lord was calling Peter the rock on which He would found His church. Any other interpretation is pretty much ignoring basic grammatical structure in order to change the Scriptures to fit their belief.

"You are rock, and on this rock I will build my Church." How much more clear can Our Lord be? Instead, we have people insisting that He suddenly changes the subjet of the sentence from Peter to Himself.
 
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Meridoc

Guest
#25
Deut32:4. He is the rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are judgment; A God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Is this revering to Peter?
No but he is also not talking about the church, lol
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#26
Actually, as it's been pointed out in this thread. The Scripture is quite clear that Our Lord was calling Peter the rock on which He would found His church. Any other interpretation is pretty much ignoring basic grammatical structure in order to change the Scriptures to fit their belief.

"You are rock, and on this rock I will build my Church." How much more clear can Our Lord be? Instead, we have people insisting that He suddenly changes the subjet of the sentence from Peter to Himself.
Well I know that is many people's opinion as to what Christ said. But it has yet to be proven.

Christ did not say your name is Peter and on You I will build my church. He said your name is peter (small stone) and on this rock (boulder or large stone) I will build my church.

Scripture can not contradict itself. If Scripture calls Jesus the cornerstone on which the church is built and the foundation stones are laid. And Peter (one of the apostles) is just one of the foundation stones. then there is only one interpretation of who is the rock that the churhc is built on which stands. For if peter was the rock, he would have been the cornerstone, Not just one of the foundation stones.

The rock on which the church is built is the gospel "You are Christ, the son of the living God" Which is what Peter said.

Yes Peter was the rock. With Paul the foundation of the church was laid to the jews (Peter) and Gentiles (Paul) and all the apostles who helped them.
 
Feb 14, 2011
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#27
The Truth is that The Revelation that Peter got from above is what Jesus is speaking of. On The ROCK of realizing that Jesus is The Christ is what Jesus is building His Church on. This Revlation did not come from people telling Peter or from Peter reading about who Jesus is, but from above. From The Father in Heaven. This Power is available for everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ, The Son of The Living God.
Absolutely, it is build on the confession that Jesus is the son of God the mesiah.Amen.
 
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AnandaHya

Guest
#28
The Truth is that The Revelation that Peter got from above is what Jesus is speaking of. On The ROCK of realizing that Jesus is The Christ is what Jesus is building His Church on. This Revlation did not come from people telling Peter or from Peter reading about who Jesus is, but from above. From The Father in Heaven. This Power is available for everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ, The Son of The Living God.
ok that makes sense, but why is Simon renamed Peter which means rock?
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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#29
Well I know that is many people's opinion as to what Christ said. But it has yet to be proven.

Christ did not say your name is Peter and on You I will build my church. He said your name is peter (small stone) and on this rock (boulder or large stone) I will build my church.

Scripture can not contradict itself. If Scripture calls Jesus the cornerstone on which the church is built and the foundation stones are laid. And Peter (one of the apostles) is just one of the foundation stones. then there is only one interpretation of who is the rock that the churhc is built on which stands. For if peter was the rock, he would have been the cornerstone, Not just one of the foundation stones.

The rock on which the church is built is the gospel "You are Christ, the son of the living God" Which is what Peter said.

Yes Peter was the rock. With Paul the foundation of the church was laid to the jews (Peter) and Gentiles (Paul) and all the apostles who helped them.

Again, you're using the Petros/Petra argument which has been discussed and debunked in this VERY THREAD.

The difference between Petros/Petra is a matter of grammar. You can't use a feminine word for a guy's name. Thus, when the gospel was translated from the original Aramaic, the translator had to use Petros for Peter's name since that's the masculine form of Petra (Rock). But at the time of the translation, the two words were synonyms. The supposed difference you're pointing out is only in the older Attic Greek dialect, from the time of Homer. Not the Koine Greek of the time of Jesus.

The Rock is quite clearly Peter. Jesus renames Simon to Rock, and then says in that same sentence, that on this Rock He will found His Church.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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#30
ok that makes sense, but why is Simon renamed Peter which means rock?
He's renamed Kephas (sometimes spelled Cephas). Peter is the translation of his name into Greek.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#31
He's renamed Kephas (sometimes spelled Cephas). Peter is the translation of his name into Greek.
ok DS.
let's say Jesus actually meant to say that He would literally build his Church on Peter.

could you explain what he meant by that?

is there a second witness in Scripture that Peter was specifically chosen as the primary (after the Cornerstone) stone in the foundation?

and anywhere whatsoever that says Peter was the chief apostle, and that there would be an heirarchy through the ages built on him (how i do not know)?
 
Feb 14, 2011
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#32
No but he is also not talking about the church, lol
No, not the church but the foundation of the church, is that Jesus is the mesiah the son of the living God.A church build on any other foundation is simply not Gods church.
 
Feb 14, 2011
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#33
ok that makes sense, but why is Simon renamed Peter which means rock?
Just like abrams name was changed to abraham,sarai to sarah, Jacob to Israel, saul to paul, Jesus to THE WORD OF GOD.rev19:13.
 
Feb 14, 2011
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#34
ok that makes sense, but why is Simon renamed Peter which means rock?
Simons name was change by God to Peter, simply because amongst the others, he only was revealed by God the truth who Jesus was.He is the son of God and upon this rock(jesus) he will build his church.
 
Feb 14, 2011
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#35
Again, you're using the Petros/Petra argument which has been discussed and debunked in this VERY THREAD.

The difference between Petros/Petra is a matter of grammar. You can't use a feminine word for a guy's name. Thus, when the gospel was translated from the original Aramaic, the translator had to use Petros for Peter's name since that's the masculine form of Petra (Rock). But at the time of the translation, the two words were synonyms. The supposed difference you're pointing out is only in the older Attic Greek dialect, from the time of Homer. Not the Koine Greek of the time of Jesus.

The Rock is quite clearly Peter. Jesus renames Simon to Rock, and then says in that same sentence, that on this Rock He will found His Church.
You are happy with contradicting the scriptures to save your doctrine,well thats ok.
It is your choice.
 
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AnandaHya

Guest
#36
I read this in Revelations the other day and thought to share it with you guys, its talking about the Holy City who is the Bride of Christ that comes down from Heaven, you can read the whole chapter but I found it interesting that the Bible says the city WALL had 12 foundations....Perhaps Christ is the foundation for the CHURCH/city but the 12 apostles are the foundation for the WALL that defines the boundaries of the city?

Revelation 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 22:12-17 (New International Version)


Epilogue: Invitation and Warning

12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#37
I read this in Revelations the other day and thought to share it with you guys, its talking about the Holy City who is the Bride of Christ that comes down from Heaven, you can read the whole chapter but I found it interesting that the Bible says the city WALL had 12 foundations....Perhaps Christ is the foundation for the CHURCH/city but the 12 apostles are the foundation for the WALL that defines the boundaries of the city?

Revelation 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
along this line ananda....
does Rev 21 say the foundation has already been laid?

can we fairly say the Lord as The Cornerstone and His Apostles ARE that foundation?

and so, then is it fair to say we do not lay any other foundation?

this is one aspect of cessationism: not a denial of the Power or Ministry of The Holy Spirit, but seeing that the Apostolic era occurred one time. when the New Covenant Church was born.

if this is seen in scripture, we are compelled to examine the NAR.

when we do, much of the confusion in the church today becomes clear for what it is. and the NAR didn't just "happen".




Rick Joyner – Knight of Malta





“This Order, which at various times in the progress of its history received the names of Knights Hospitalers, Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, Knights of Rhodes, and lastly, Knights of Malta, was one of the most important of the religious and military orders of knighthood which sprang into existence during the Crusades which were instituted for the recovery of the Holy Land. It owes its origin to the Hospitalers of Jerusalem, that wholly religious and charitable Order which was established at Jerusalem, in 1048, by pious merchants of Amalfi for the succor of poor and distressed Latin pilgrims…

“The Organization of the Order in its days of prosperity was very complicated, partaking of both a monarchial and a republican character. Over all presided a Grand Master, who, although invested with extensive powers, was still controlled by the legislative action of the General Chapter…”

“…There are now two bodies-one Catholic and the other Protestant, but each repudiates the other…”
“The degree of Knight of Malta is conferred in the United States as “an appendant Order” in a Commandery of Knights Templar. There is a ritual attached to the degree, but very few are in possession of it, and it is generally communicated after the candidate has been created a Knights
Templar…”

Source: An Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and Its Kindred Sciences,” etc. by Albert G. Mackey, M.D., Thirty-Third Degree, Volume I, published by the Masonic History Company, Chicago, New York, & London, 1925, Volume One, pp. 392-95

~

we can all, for a time, be deceived, and to think that we can not is, in itself deception.
The Lord will NOT, however leave His own in deception as a permanent condition.

the conspiracy and deception is so extreme (and we ain't seen NOTHIN' yet), that if Jesus Himself didn't do the 'keeping', not one of us would emerge from it.

this, then, is one part of The Holy Spirit's TRUE Commission: to lead us into all truth....that means, in part, that we will see error and deception for what it is.

~

so who is Rick Joyner, for example? and why do we need to know?

~

Articles on C. Peter Wagner's "New Apostolic Reformation" as well as false spiritual warfare teachings. This page includes the "successul apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" named on the Wagner Leadership Institute's site as those with "proven effectiveness in ministry, communications skills and a recognized anointing for the impartation of ministry skills". Beware of these "Latter Rain" advocates who would lay another foundation than the one already laid in Jesus Christ and the Apostles and Prophets of Scripture!

Go directly to these exposes:



http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html#rjoyner

~

Hebrews 5
Warning Against Apostasy
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

zone
 
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Mar 11, 2011
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#38
Another way to look at this that could mabey be a little easier to see is; what is the main lesson that Peter was taught? that although Peter swore with his life that he would Never deny Christ, that he actually didn't even know himself, as well as God does.

Mabey i'm just some kind of unique loser, i don't know; but i really think (beleive) that if we are ALL honest with ourselves, at different times in our lives, when times of great tribulation come upon us or our loved ones, that we have ALL had a thought, somewhere along the lines of; God IF your there? how can you let this happen???:confused:

This is quite simply, doubting God.

So how i beleive were to understand this is; Christ is NO DOUBT, THE ROCK.

How i beleive that we are to identify Peter as; is as A Rock.

Why? well it seems that Peter was the first apostle to recognize in reality, that Christ was in fact The Son of the Living God. does not this make Peter in fact the very first practising Christian that had more than just beleif, but actual knowledge; as prior to Peter's revelation, He certainly already beleived something about Christ, that wasn't full knowledge. (just saying)

So all i'm trying to get at is this; IF you beleive that Christ's Church IS the many membered body scattered throughout the world, at This time; Are we not ALL in the exact same boat as Peter? A practising Christan(a rock) that although we may think we know what were doing; that in Reality God knows better.

Life is a lesson, you learn it, as you go, many Good wishs to ALL in their journey's.

Forever in Christ :)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#39
Another way to look at this that could mabey be a little easier to see is; what is the main lesson that Peter was taught? that although Peter swore with his life that he would Never deny Christ, that he actually didn't even know himself, as well as God does.

Mabey i'm just some kind of unique loser, i don't know; but i really think (beleive) that if we are ALL honest with ourselves, at different times in our lives, when times of great tribulation come upon us or our loved ones, that we have ALL had a thought, somewhere along the lines of; God IF your there? how can you let this happen???:confused:

This is quite simply, doubting God.

So how i beleive were to understand this is; Christ is NO DOUBT, THE ROCK.

How i beleive that we are to identify Peter as; is as A Rock.

Why? well it seems that Peter was the first apostle to recognize in reality, that Christ was in fact The Son of the Living God. does not this make Peter in fact the very first practising Christian that had more than just beleif, but actual knowledge; as prior to Peter's revelation, He certainly already beleived something about Christ, that wasn't full knowledge. (just saying)

So all i'm trying to get at is this; IF you beleive that Christ's Church IS the many membered body scattered throughout the world, at This time; Are we not ALL in the exact same boat as Peter? A practising Christan(a rock) that although we may think we know what were doing; that in Reality God knows better.

Life is a lesson, you learn it, as you go, many Good wishs to ALL in their journey's.

Forever in Christ :)
good post WS.
thank you.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
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#40
Just like abrams name was changed to abraham,sarai to sarah, Jacob to Israel, saul to paul, Jesus to THE WORD OF GOD.rev19:13.
Exactly! Simon's name was changed to Rock because of the role he was to play in God's plan. Christ was ascending into Heaven soon to prepare for us. And He appointed Simon to be His prime minister while He was away. He gives Simon a new name, Rock, and tells Simon that He will build His church on Simon. He gives to Simon the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, appointing him to lead His Church and entrusting Simon to care for His sheep. Notice how Our Lord asks Simon Peter three times if he loves Him and three times Simon Peter answers yes. This is because Our Lord knows of the denials and is canceling them out. The symbolism is quite obvious here.