Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize.

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BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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I am not bearing false witness so please drop it with your reverse psychology, and I would apologize if I was in the wrong in what I said. I do not speak out lightly and say things unless I have actually seen the person say that.

I am not in the habit of copying everything a person says to use against them later because we are not to do that, as that would be holding something over on another.

I don't make it all about me either as I always give credit to God for what He has done and is doing in my life, and I count it joy to be attacked like this by others when defending His word. The part I am tired of is those doing this in front of new believers or weak believers in the faith.

The call has been out there how attitudes of some need to be confirmed to the Word of God, and not the other way around of confirming His word to their ways which so sadly is done now days.
You, once again, are not being attacked. On the contrary, I am being falsely accused of saying something that I did not say, and also being accused of making false allegations that, first off, aren't false and also hardly allegations. I am not trying to criticize you KennethC, but the way you read my replies as allegations and accusatory is not edifying. I am just making an observation.

Ember is right, this isn't really resolving anything... but its not just a matter of being right. Its that people seem to place people on ignore that disagree with them and ignore questions so that none may be edified. So the true culprit in all of this are the ones ignoring others at the cost of no unity. Such people as Just-me, yes I am laying out a name. Its his thread after all and yet he won't participate in conversation because he ignores people with differing view points.

If I am in the wrong, someone please tell me. Someone who knows I would be receptive to their criticism. Honestly, if I am wrong I am sorry. However, I feel justified in my position.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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This isn't possible. Not until Just-me stops ignoring questions pertaining to the topic. He won't answer what is the significance to these three things (faith, mercy and judgement) in relation to the Law and how it applies to us. What is the point of this thread? How is it to be edifying if there is no end in sight? What is the over all point he is trying to get to? How can this subject edify us?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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don't make light of what I posted
you are not helping by taking out of context my post
are you happy with the strife? is it that important to be right?
just where is it that you think love covers a multitude of sins?
honestly? what is diametrically opposed is the rigid proud self serving attitudes that prevail in some threads
and you can quote me
Well I apologize. I didn't mean for there to be bite to my facetiousness. Just trying to point out in an indirect way that there is not going to be peace when people with diametrically opposed doctrines are allowed to argue their points.

No I hate the strife, but what are we to do? Let false teachers have their say unopposed? Whether you or anyone else here realizes it or not, doctrine is salvation.

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. 1 Timothy 4:16

One thing this kind of interaction does for me personally is that it sharpens my understanding immensely, and brings what I know in my heart into sharp focus in my mind.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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First, let me say that there are a few people in this forum (not just this thread) who appear to be mentally ill to me. Personality disorders, to be exact.

Someone with a personality disorder first and foremost thinks that everything someone else says or does is about them. I call it the "all about me" syndrome. Depending upon the kind of personality disorder, that can lead to wanting compliments, being the center of attention, or conversely, thinking that everyone is criticizing/attacking you. In other words, paranoid thinking, within the realm of "all about me."

Catching up on this thread, I am seeing this over and over. Someone says something, the person replies thinking they are being attacked/falsely accused etc. When to my outside eyes, nothing of the sort occurred.

I will go so far as to say someone in this forum (not in this thread) has a history of doing this over the years. But because people come and go, get banned, join, the focus of this person's paranoia is constantly changing. In other words, he is saying the same paranoid things about people attacking him, but he moves on to new people. And never really has a positive word to say. I only mention it, because I saw this person posting the other day, did not comment on it. But it is the extreme end of what is going on here. (Again, this person was not in this thread!)

Look, we disagreee about some fundamental doctrines. The history of this disagreement does not date to this thread, this forum, or modern Christianity, but literally back 100's of years. If the great theologians of the past (I'm talking about people who read the Greek and Hebrew fluently, and have really STUDIED the Bible and theology - from both sides!) then what is the possibility we are going to persuade the other side that we are right?

Slim and none! That's right! NONE! Sorry for shouting. Not saying we have to sing Kumbaya, but all this shouting, getting away from the Bible, personal accusations is simply not right.

Maybe we need to take a break from this whole topic in this forum. It has been thrashed to death, in literally thousand and thousands of post. I know I am right, the other side knows it is right. I can prove it from the Bible, the other side can prove it from the Bible.

Just my two cents worth. And do look in the mirror, and see if you think you are under constant attack. Do see if you are posting for attention, not to contribute to the Biblical discussion, should everyone see fit to continue this pointless discussion.

PS. If the shoe fits, wear it. Or take it off, and try something new - like letting God transform you! And if it doesn't fit, this is not about you! Plural!
 
K

KennethC

Guest
This isn't possible. Not until Just-me stops ignoring questions pertaining to the topic. He won't answer what is the significance to these three things (faith, mercy and judgement) in relation to the Law and how it applies to us. What is the point of this thread? How is it to be edifying if there is no end in sight? What is the over all point he is trying to get to? How can this subject edify us?
He has been posting scriptures and been responding, just not to all posts as he is waiting for others to find this in the Word and post it instead of just questioning him on what the purpose is.

Seek and you shall find, ask and it will be given to you, knock and the door will be opened !!!
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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He has been posting scriptures and been responding, just not to all posts as he is waiting for others to find this in the Word and post it instead of just questioning him on what the purpose is.

Seek and you shall find, ask and it will be given to you, knock and the door will be opened !!!
You mean, not any of my posts. Lets be specific. Why do you think that is? Eh, don't answer that. You have a bias at the moment. We both do. lol :)

Again, the ignore button doesn't make you right, it blinds you to the truth if, indeed, what you believe is false.
 
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K

KennethC

Guest
First, let me say that there are a few people in this forum (not just this thread) who appear to be mentally ill to me. Personality disorders, to be exact.

Someone with a personality disorder first and foremost thinks that everything someone else says or does is about them. I call it the "all about me" syndrome. Depending upon the kind of personality disorder, that can lead to wanting compliments, being the center of attention, or conversely, thinking that everyone is criticizing/attacking you. In other words, paranoid thinking, within the realm of "all about me."

Catching up on this thread, I am seeing this over and over. Someone says something, the person replies thinking they are being attacked/falsely accused etc. When to my outside eyes, nothing of the sort occurred.

I will go so far as to say someone in this forum (not in this thread) has a history of doing this over the years. But because people come and go, get banned, join, the focus of this person's paranoia is constantly changing. In other words, he is saying the same paranoid things about people attacking him, but he moves on to new people. And never really has a positive word to say. I only mention it, because I saw this person posting the other day, did not comment on it. But it is the extreme end of what is going on here. (Again, this person was not in this thread!)

Look, we disagreee about some fundamental doctrines. The history of this disagreement does not date to this thread, this forum, or modern Christianity, but literally back 100's of years. If the great theologians of the past (I'm talking about people who read the Greek and Hebrew fluently, and have really STUDIED the Bible and theology - from both sides!) then what is the possibility we are going to persuade the other side that we are right?

Slim and none! That's right! NONE! Sorry for shouting. Not saying we have to sing Kumbaya, but all this shouting, getting away from the Bible, personal accusations is simply not right.

Maybe we need to take a break from this whole topic in this forum. It has been thrashed to death, in literally thousand and thousands of post. I know I am right, the other side knows it is right. I can prove it from the Bible, the other side can prove it from the Bible.

Just my two cents worth. And do look in the mirror, and see if you think you are under constant attack. Do see if you are posting for attention, not to contribute to the Biblical discussion, should everyone see fit to continue this pointless discussion.

PS. If the shoe fits, wear it. Or take it off, and try something new - like letting God transform you! And if it doesn't fit, this is not about you! Plural!
The problem with why these disagreements started at the beginning of the Church and continue to now is because the same old same old still continues. Placing that of man's traditions, customs, and philosophies above and in front of the pure Word of God and the Holy Spirit who will guide us in all truth.

Until believers put man's ways aside and trusts in putting the Holy Spirit first these doctrinal differences will not end, and divisions will continue. Divisions in the body is not a good thing !!!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is not the topic that stirs up strife though Ember, and just because there are multiple threads on the same topic does not mean it is to stir up strife.

Look I have had my disagreements with Just-me as well and with a few others, but it was still kept civil, friendly, and respectful.

There is absolutely no need to be unedifying toward others who disagrees, and I know what you are saying because I have been attacked constantly on here to where I almost left at one time and even had my account set for deletion before a number of people talked me into coming back.

The name I am under now is not my original account as I had to start a new one because of that one was deleted.

I would be all happy for the stopping of the dismembering of others on here, as for your picture I have felt a number of times like the man in the middle being pulled apart by the horses.

sorry, But bearing false witness and making false allegations against someone is not being civil, friendly or respectful..

Again your self righteousness ( I am right, and doing good, and everyone else is a sinner) is nausiating
 
K

KennethC

Guest
You mean, not any of my posts. Lets be specific. Why do you think that is? Eh, don't answer that. You have a bias at the moment. We both do. lol :)
I am not bias at all as I don't defend one person over another, but I am not going to go back through all of the posts but I do recall him responding to a couple of yours.

The purpose of the thread is for the rest of us to seek out if we have not seen it yet to find where justice, mercy, and faith are mentioned in the law. Then come back and post what we have found or seen in regards to it, not to question what this is all about or the purpose behind it.

It is about showing where those are shown in the law, plain and simple, that's it.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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PASSOVER: JUDGMENT, MERCY & FAITH
UNDERSTANDING THE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF THE LAW--JUDGMENT, MERCY AND FAITH THROUGH THE PASSOVER
Your post was greatly appreciated by me. I agree wholeheartedly. It was extremely good and defined well. Thank you very much! :) post413
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This isn't possible. Not until Just-me stops ignoring questions pertaining to the topic. He won't answer what is the significance to these three things (faith, mercy and judgement) in relation to the Law and how it applies to us. What is the point of this thread? How is it to be edifying if there is no end in sight? What is the over all point he is trying to get to? How can this subject edify us?

He means stay on topic. Agree with him and just-me, or else.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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I am not bias at all as I don't defend one person over another, but I am not going to go back through all of the posts but I do recall him responding to a couple of yours.

The purpose of the thread is for the rest of us to seek out if we have not seen it yet to find where justice, mercy, and faith are mentioned in the law. Then come back and post what we have found or seen in regards to it, not to question what this is all about or the purpose behind it.

It is about showing where those are shown in the law, plain and simple, that's it.
He replies to a post or two but not my posts that had questions for him. He just quoted me pointing out the three things Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees. Again, he is ignoring my questions. Also, if that is the sole purpose of this thread, how pointless. What good is there to be gained in revealing such things in the law? It would only serve to condemn us, as the Law is meant to do. For we don't walk in those thing perfectly all the time, do we?

It seems to find such things it would only serve to show us how we fall short of His glory and our necessity for Christ.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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First, let me say that there are a few people in this forum (not just this thread) who appear to be mentally ill to me. Personality disorders, to be exact.
I agree. you can detect them by their.........

 
K

Karraster

Guest
The Body of Jesus Christ is the Assembly that awaits His return, for He is the Head and we are the Member. He is teh Chief and the Corner Stone of the Temple, while we are the lively stones of the Temple. He will rebuild it. There is prophesy here derived from the Word not from imaginations.
When individuals who claim to know the Word and teach the Word and criticize other who share the Word ae arrogant and insolent to the brethren and their elders, their works go befoe them. Yes, a tree is known by the fruit it bears.

All the above is direct from the teachings of the Word. If you do not recognize it, perhaps it is because you re trespassing the teaching, whoever you may be........
Thanks brother, as always..well said.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 
Mar 4, 2013
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I am not bias at all as I don't defend one person over another, but I am not going to go back through all of the posts but I do recall him responding to a couple of yours.

The purpose of the thread is for the rest of us to seek out if we have not seen it yet to find where justice, mercy, and faith are mentioned in the law. Then come back and post what we have found or seen in regards to it, not to question what this is all about or the purpose behind it.

It is about showing where those are shown in the law, plain and simple, that's it.
It's not a hard question, but the answer my be a little more difficult to define. It's there though, because Jesus said so. He is our Savior, not our pet doctrines that we defend by presumptuously jumping to conclusions with false accusations of others who present a truth that can edify each other by God's righteosuness.

Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Psalm 19:13

 
K

Karraster

Guest
PASSOVER: JUDGMENT, MERCY & FAITH
UNDERSTANDING THE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF THE LAW--JUDGMENT, MERCY AND FAITH THROUGH THE PASSOVER

JUDGMENT AND MERCY ARE IMPORTANT GIFTS OF GOD AND HIS LOVE, THAT CHRIST MADE KNOWN AND AVAILABLE AT HIS PASSOVER. Man as a sinner, must understand and by Faith, accept these two works of Christ's love, in order to be forgiven of his sins and to be saved. Jesus Christ fulfilled God's law that commands judgment of death for sin by the giving of His life as man's sacrifice at the Passover, and through this laying down of His life for man, made available His Great mercy. The Passover provides the foundation every Christian must lay and accept in his life, to understand judgment and mercy, and in order to understand saving faith. The symbolism of a lamb's shed blood and its by faith acceptance by the children of Israel at the first Passover, Ex. 12;7-13, provided the beginning plan of God to help man, as a family and as a nation, to understand about God's judgment upon sin, and His mercy to forgive sin, Ex. 12:12-14.
TODAY'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS AND THEIR FOLLOWERS, ARE NOT TEACHING WITH UNDERSTANDING, ABOUT JUDGMENT AS IT RELATES TO SIN AND GOD'S MERCY. Why? Because they cannot relate Christ's sacrifice and death to God's law-His law that commands judgment against sin. Any person that is called of God must come to understand about God's judgment first, to understand His mercy and saving faith. Today's church leaders and its people, understand that Christ came into the world providing mercy upon sinners, but not based on repentance from sin, identified by the breaking of God's law, The Ten Commandments. Their knowledge of mercy is based only on a person believing and confessing of a christ, a false christ, that is not the Christ of the Bible.
Heb. 10:26-29--- 26 For if we sin willfully ( knowingly break any of God's 10 commandments) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
CHURCH PEOPLE DO NOT TEACH, BELIEVE OR UNDERSTAND THAT CHRIST CAME INTO THE WORLD FOR JUDGMENT. Read it in John 9:39! "For judgment I (Christ) am come into the world." Jesus Christ in Mat. 23:23 denounced the religious leaders of His day for not doing and teaching the people about the most important matters of the law. He says that the weightier-heavy, important matters of the law are judgment, mercy and faith. Luke's account, Luke 11:42, referred to the weightier matters of the law as judgment, and the love of God. In both accounts, judgment was mentioned first in importance.Why is judgment, and to do judgment, such an important part of the law?
Mat. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!! (the same can be said of today's religious leaders) for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
CHRIST TOLD THOSE LEADERS THAT THEY MUST DO JUDGMENT. WHAT IS IT ABOUT JUDGMENT THAT A PERSON MUST UNDERSTAND AND DO? Every person desiring salvation, must come to the place that he can recognize and judge sin in his life. He must study and learn to be able to identify sin in his life, and understand that God's law in His judgments commands and demands judgment against that sin and all of a person's sins, and then see the need to take action, to repent of those sins, of breaking God's law, in order to receive mercy. The religious leaders of Christ's day would not do this, judge their own sins, Mat. 23:23, because they were blind to their sins. Their main concern was all over money-God's tithe. Christ said of them that their outside was clean and white, but within, they were full of extortion and excess-much, much sin, which is commandment breaking!
Most think of those religious leaders because of today's false teaching, of being strict, legalistic, law-keepers, but they were not! They were strict by their own standards, man created commandments, but not by God's commandments and law, which they broke to excess. Christ said of them, that they appeared as beautiful grave sites, beautiful outward, but within, full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness, (much sin-commandment breaking). Read it in Mat. 23:25-28. Christ said they appear righteous to men, but are full of hypocrisy and iniquities (sin). This is such a fitting and appropriate picture of today's professed Christianity in our society! One of Christ's own, called disciples, Judas, would not recognize his sin and judge his sin because he was blinded to his greed for money. His whole concern was about money, and at the Passover his sin caused him to execute judgment on his own life. Mat. 27: 3-5, I Cor. 11:31
I Cor.11:31---For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
EVERY0NE IS A SINNER, AND MUST COME TO SEE THAT HE SINS AGAINST GOD BY BREAKING ANY OF HIS TEN COMMANDMENTS. Read about David's example, Ps. 51. Everyone must come to understand that there is a judgment of death pronounced against him and his sins, and in order to be saved from his sins and eternal death, he needs God's mercy and forgiveness. God and His law commands that the judgment of death must be fulfilled by the one that has sinned, and can only be pardoned--passed over, by a qualified and God-accepted life, and substitutionary sacrifice. The only one qualified and accepted by God the Father, that has both fulfilled God's commandments-His Ten Commandments, and fulfilled the demands of the law by the penalty of judgment and death against sin, is Jesus Christ and every sinner must repent of his sins, obey God's 10 commandments, and accept by faith Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, to receive God's mercy and forgiveness. Christ was resurrected after 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, and ascended to the Father, to be accepted by Him as man's substitutionary sacrifice, that every sinner must have and accept to be saved, to live, to receive God's Spirit, and to be raised up, Rom. 8:11.
IN I COR. 11:27-29, CHRIST GAVE TO PAUL A WARNING THAT WAS DIRECTED TO EVERYONE PARTAKING OF THE PASSOVER AND ITS SYMBOLS. He said anyone who eats and drinks of the symbols of His Body at His Passover, showing His death, and does not understand the serious meaning of His broken Body and shed blood, eats and drinks judgment upon himself. Christ warns church people in verse 31, if they would examine-judge themselves-their sins, then they would not have to be judged by God. Because of the lack of personal examination and judgment, many are weak, sickly and many die (immaturely). Study Ex. 15:26 and Deut. 28:58-63. These verses say that because man will not judge his life and learn to obey God and fear Him, man can expect to receive curses, plagues and diseases of all kinds against him and his children, until both he and his children are destroyed from the earth.
Deut. 28:61-62 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon you, until you be destroyed. 62- And you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God.
THE PASSOVER IS A SERVICE AND SEASON THAT CHRIST COMMANDS MAN TO KEEP EVERY YEAR, TO HELP HIM LEARN, AND NEVER FORGET ABOUT JUDGMENT, MERCY AND FAITH AS THESE HEAVY, WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF THE LAW-GOD'S LAW, RELATES TO ONE'S SALVATION. The Passover comes and goes every year as a testimony and a witness against everyone who neglects to keep those days, and who will not judge his own sins and take the meaning of the Passover very serious. The Passover is God's love to man, (John 15:13) but only if man will respond in repentance and acceptance of Christ as his Passover, and fails not to keep the Service in remembrance of His death, until Christ comes. I Cor.11:25-26.
Thank you for sharing this! beautiful! A verse that used to baffle me was this: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

...because I did not yet understand the Pharisees were making up their own religious laws instead of doing what our Creator told us to do. Nothing has changed much has it? ~ blessings my brother:)
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,952
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The problem with why these disagreements started at the beginning of the Church and continue to now is because the same old same old still continues. Placing that of man's traditions, customs, and philosophies above and in front of the pure Word of God and the Holy Spirit who will guide us in all truth.

Until believers put man's ways aside and trusts in putting the Holy Spirit first these doctrinal differences will not end, and divisions will continue. Divisions in the body is not a good thing !!!
Yes, this divide has been around a long time. I don't think it comes out of man made traditions. I know I was in Arminian churches the first 15 years of my walk. (Although I did not know that is what they were called!) I was taught that if I don't produce fruit, or if I sinned, I could lose my salvation. Or that not producing fruit was a sign I was not saved, if you want to put it that way. I felt so pressured, so far from God, because I knew my works were not enough.

In my Bible reading and study, I began to find things that disagreed with that position. I began to pray, and God showed me the truths he had given me right when I was saved - that I was his, and he would not let me go. It was man's traditions that made me stop believing the Holy Spirit.

I began to realize, to my joy, that God was never going to leave of forsake me. I didn't know about anyone else, but I knew my relationship with God was secure, and that gave me great joy and peace. It inspired me to do more for Christ, for other people. It allowed the Holy Spirit to change me, in ways I had failed to do on my own. I had been working on the fruits of the Holy Spirit since I was saved in 1980. Some were beyond my ability to achieve.

But God changed that, when I realized I didn't have to perform to maintain my salvation, but rather that the Holy Spirit is the one who does the transforming. Just like Romans 12:2 and 2 Cor. 3:18 say - transform - in the Greek - passive imperative tense. We are commanded to let God change us. God does the changing, in his time, and for his glory.

Later, in theology in Seminary, I was introduced to the different soteriological positions. At that point, I didn't even realize there were different sides to this debate. We read about Arminianism from Arminian theologians, who tried to convince us that we would lose our salvation if we were not showing fruits/works. I read from Calvinist theologians the other extreme, which I rejected too. Then I found some theologians, with the encouraging Biblical word that we cannot lose our salvation. It is God who justifies, sanctifies and glorifies.

So, Kenneth, you are wrong in your opinion that man made traditions are the problem and you alone have a pipe line to the Holy Spirit, who has correctly instructed only you, as to the perfect soteriology. In fact, Arminianism is just as much a man made tradition as Calvinism or any other ism.

It is only in trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross that we are saved. And God saves us through the faith he gives us. It is a gift, lest anyone should boast!
 
K

KennethC

Guest
He replies to a post or two but not my posts that had questions for him. He just quoted me pointing out the three things Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees. Again, he is ignoring my questions. Also, if that is the sole purpose of this thread, how pointless. What good is there to be gained in revealing such things in the law? It would only serve to condemn us, as the Law is meant to do. For we don't walk in those thing perfectly all the time, do we?

It seems to find such things it would only serve to show us how we fall short of His glory and our necessity for Christ.
The Law only condemns because the flesh is to weak to obey all that is written in the ordinances.
Romans 8:3 shows this which is why the written ordinances are the ministry of death, because of the punishments of death for breaking them they carried.

Yet all Jews were guilty of not keeping the law as written so how many do we actually read were put to death for breaking those ordinances, and how many times can we read of people being shown mercy and forgiven instead in the OT ???

Learning the Spiritual or moral aspect within the law that was overlooked by the Pharisees would not bring condemnation, but instead would bring greater understanding to what the Lord and Paul were saying about the law.

Because at times you will see Paul speaking against the Law but then at other times you will see him uphold and speaking on the 10 Commandments. To the unlearned this would seem contradictory because here he is speaking against but here he is supporting and upholding it.

The contradiction comes from not seeing how the physical written ordinances is what does not apply, but the moral law of God contained within the 10 Commandments are upheld by believers by following the two greatest commands to love.

Those who are in Christ walk by the Spirit (where there is no condemnation), but those who continue to walk by the flesh are carnally minded and Paul says they have not learned Christ.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Yes, this divide has been around a long time. I don't think it comes out of man made traditions. I know I was in Arminian churches the first 15 years of my walk. (Although I did not know that is what they were called!) I was taught that if I don't produce fruit, or if I sinned, I could lose my salvation. Or that not producing fruit was a sign I was not saved, if you want to put it that way. I felt so pressured, so far from God, because I knew my works were not enough.

In my Bible reading and study, I began to find things that disagreed with that position. I began to pray, and God showed me the truths he had given me right when I was saved - that I was his, and he would not let me go. It was man's traditions that made me stop believing the Holy Spirit.

I began to realize, to my joy, that God was never going to leave of forsake me. I didn't know about anyone else, but I knew my relationship with God was secure, and that gave me great joy and peace. It inspired me to do more for Christ, for other people. It allowed the Holy Spirit to change me, in ways I had failed to do on my own. I had been working on the fruits of the Holy Spirit since I was saved in 1980. Some were beyond my ability to achieve.

But God changed that, when I realized I didn't have to perform to maintain my salvation, but rather that the Holy Spirit is the one who does the transforming. Just like Romans 12:2 and 2 Cor. 3:18 say - transform - in the Greek - passive imperative tense. We are commanded to let God change us. God does the changing, in his time, and for his glory.

Later, in theology in Seminary, I was introduced to the different soteriological positions. At that point, I didn't even realize there were different sides to this debate. We read about Arminianism from Arminian theologians, who tried to convince us that we would lose our salvation if we were not showing fruits/works. I read from Calvinist theologians the other extreme, which I rejected too. Then I found some theologians, with the encouraging Biblical word that we cannot lose our salvation. It is God who justifies, sanctifies and glorifies.

So, Kenneth, you are wrong in your opinion that man made traditions are the problem and you alone have a pipe line to the Holy Spirit, who has correctly instructed only you, as to the perfect soteriology. In fact, Arminianism is just as much a man made tradition as Calvinism or any other ism.

It is only in trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross that we are saved. And God saves us through the faith he gives us. It is a gift, lest anyone should boast!
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Angela53510 again.

Well said! Glory to God!