Tim Keller: 3+ Questions Fake Christians Can’t Answer

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Mar 23, 2016
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#21
Job definitely didn't feel 'totally abandoned' by his Saviour -
else, he would have just 'given-up' as we all would have done before coming to
really believe-in and KNOW Jesus Christ...

Job is one of our ultimate 'teachers', Spiritually given to us by Jesus...
He not only believed in his Saviour, but He counted on Him to deliver him
from all of his travails...
I love Job. What a great man of faith —


Job 19:

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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#22
ok, but how do i get from there to discerning genuine believers from fake by basically asking them how they feel?

the implied question of the video is, here's a random person who professes to be a Christian, what questions can you ask to discern whether they really are or not? i.e. how can a person separate wheat from chaff by holding a 5 to 10 minute conversation with someone who claims to be a believer?
i was surprised to hear questions about the person's emotional state, rather than questions about what they believe. i'm not sure i'm following Keller's logic.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. The result of this faith is works. Without works there is no real faith. The works doesn't save but it is evidence of faith. No works no faith. So to discern if someone is saved look at their works. 2 sections of scripture on this.

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

In addition here is Matthew.

Matthew 7 AMPC

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
 

GodisONE

Active member
Jul 11, 2018
212
44
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#23
why do all these question seem to focus on personal human feelings, emotions and impressions?

because people have no clue who God is any more. they get goose bumps and think it was God passing by. they get happy and attribute it to God. they have a bad moment and suddenly it is Satan attacking them.

they literally are clueless. it's why in Revelations it states there will be a great falling away. because the touchy feely idiots with no clue will fall for the antichrist!!
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
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#24
Those are good questions to ask yourself but I don't really think they can tell you if someone is truly a Christian or a fake because there will be ups and down in this. We are not always on the mountain top. There are valleys as well.

So I think this scripture fits here:

Romans 14:4-5
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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#25
Those are good questions to ask yourself but I don't really think they can tell you if someone is truly a Christian or a fake because there will be ups and down in this. We are not always on the mountain top. There are valleys as well.

So I think this scripture fits here:

Romans 14:4-5
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
You are ignoring the verse from Jesus and James talking about looking at their works.

Jesus being quoted.
Matthew 7 AMPC

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,912
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#26
You are ignoring the verse from Jesus and James talking about looking at their works.

Jesus being quoted.
Matthew 7 AMPC

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
I'm not trying to ignore any scripture. I agree with the scripture you posted. All I am trying to say is you can't ask some of the questions asked there ( asked in the original post) and see if someone is truly a Christian based on those questions. Some days you may feel like your on top of the world and riding high, but then another you might be going through a trial and not be able to say I feel so much closer to God today than I did yesterday. Yet mature Christians understand that trials are to make us stronger, but the new Christians may not understand the trial that they are facing and think that may not even be saved because of how they feel through a trial or the fact that they are even subject to a trial.

That's why I posted the verses I did. One man esteems better one day than another and another might esteem the same every day. But no matter what's going on in life, we need to be convinced in ourselves that we are saved and not just go based on how we're feeling day to day or minute to minute. Sometimes every thing is going great and sometimes it may not so no matter how we feel we still need to know and be confident that Jesus is with us in the good times and the bad times.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#27
Job definitely didn't feel 'totally abandoned' by his Saviour
Notice what he said:

Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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#28
I agree mostly but some questions going to the heart of Christianity can be asked to attempt to discern their understanding of how a person becomes a Christian. That is their weak point. They have no understanding about grace. They will not understand the meaning.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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#29
Notice what he said:

Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
Yet in all of his misery he never blamed God. That is the issue that Satan tried to say he would do. Satan failed to make Job deny God!! That is the whole point of the book. His "friends" told him to ask forgiveness from God to have his problems go away. He lost everything, had boils over his body, and his friends were not really acting like friends. Through it all he never sinned and blamed God. Satan lost!!!
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,912
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#30
I agree mostly but some questions going to the heart of Christianity can be asked to attempt to discern their understanding of how a person becomes a Christian. That is their weak point. They have no understanding about grace. They will not understand the meaning.
I see your point here and understand that some people have no idea about what it takes to become a Christian and may have just repeated the sinners prayer or joined a church just because they wanted to feel like part of the crowd and do not fully understand. Then there are also the little lambs there who are truly saved but just learning and growing in the Lord. So yeah, it is good to give instruction out of scripture of what becoming a Christian entails, but I think it could be dangerous to go in and start battering people with this line of questioning presented here. Although the sheep will get it and understand the lambs may not. As for the fakers, we are not to try to weed 'em out ourselves but to let the tares grow with the wheat and let God weed 'em out. Because if we are not careful we may be stomping on one of the lambs or pulling up the wheat.

I think it's best to give them the biblical truth and explain the scripture to them so that they can grow if they are Christians and if they are not saved then they will be able to recognize that themselves.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
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#31
To enter the arena of using feelings as a determinative of our growth is to exit the arena of faith.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
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#32
You are ignoring the verse from Jesus and James talking about looking at their works.

Jesus being quoted.
Matthew 7 AMPC

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Aren't good deeds a product of our new creation spirit and mentality and focus? We see where there is need of right living or holiness in this world when before we did not because we were part of this world.
Doing good as God wills is proof of our Salvation. Not a means to retain our salvation. We're indwelt by the holy spirit that guides us into all truth. He guides our steps to act for God and his desires for this earth. We're living testaments of the truth of the Gospel's life transforming capacity.