Tithing. What are Christians suppose to do?

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Tithing


  • Total voters
    25

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Finally: New testament giving:
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
how does this comment on the common practice of passing an offering plate around in the middle of service?
does it support it or does it comment against it?

Paul says weekly store up our gifts, so apparently they are meeting weekly, and that was an appropriate time to gather together whatever is being set aside. but he also indicates he doesn't want collections being made while he is there.
or should we look at this as a general precept at all? in the context, Paul is collecting gifts from all the churches so he can bring it to Jerusalem to help the poor & needy among the congregation there, who is heavily persecuted. this isn't an offering being made for general use in any of the churches it's being given, and it's not for the expenses of the 'traveling evangelist/missionary' Paul, either.

or is this all completely off-topic since he never calls it a tithe, and moreover speaks about it akin to a free-will offering?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Okay, as I have said, if you prefer to call that giving instead of tithing, I am fine too.
IMO it's a rather important point to use the correct vocabulary about this, and that the right vocabulary is "giving" not tithing. as @Judges1318 has been trying to point out, if we're calling it 'tithe' we're using specific Sinai covenant language, and we are being hypocritical if we don't pattern it after how the law specifies how people are/were to 'tithe'

i'm not personally 'fine' with using commandment/requirement language to describe what should in reality be completely non-compulsory, voluntary acts of free will. that's especially important when we have congregations full of largely Biblically illiterate members. they hear this word 'tithe' and they look it up, and they find it spoken about in the OT only, and only as a law. so what do they naturally conclude? that they are under this law, because the elders in the church are speaking about gifts as tho they are given under this law. so they see this as a commandment, even if it's not specifically preached as one, and they consequentially look at their Christian walk from a works-based, legalistic framework.
and this abuse of language doesn't just affect the ordinary parishioners, but as it goes on generation after generation using inappropriate vocabulary, generation after generation of preachers, teachers and other ministers grow up with the same works-based, legalistic framework of giving. error creeps in and gets spread exponentially - and we have presumably Biblically literate people in a position regarded as authoritative teachers, continuing to use the wrong language and sometimes even preaching sermons on $$$ that are completely contrary to how the NT describes the topic. knowingly spreading and reinforcing this error. and why? because it has become tradition they don't want to upset, and because they are afraid the finances will drop if they don't keep insinuating and/or openly teaching tithes instead of free-will, thanksgiving gifts.

yes, i'm giving a slippery-slope / snowballing argument. i realize that. but i don't think it's without merit. don't we all give essentially the same argument when we complain about the 'normalization' of sexual perversion in our society? about abusing language with regard to transsexual people's pronouns, and re-definition of all kinds of moral nomenclature? inclined planes are real geometry.


*sigh* i miss @Yet

:p
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But last time I checked less then 5% or so tithe 10%, and of tithing on net income that’s even less, which corresponds to the number of well off financially 5% of people.

Look at the late owner of chic fil a tithed 90% of his income which would amount to insane amounts for a company bigger then McDonald’s.
McDonald's is almost 4 times bigger than Chik-Fil-A in terms of gross sales in the US and has more than 10 times as many franchises just in America alone, and McDonald's is worldwide whereas 'Christian Chicken' is more or less only in the Bible belt.
Chik-Fil-A's restaurants are on average individually about 1.5 times as profitable as an average McDonald's - but IMO there is no way one can legitimately say they're '
bigger than McDonald's' -- that's just factually incorrect.
https://www.qsrmagazine.com/content/qsr50-2019-top-50-chart



statistics i could find for % of regular church-goers that 'tithe' is between 10% and 25%
https://pushpay.com/blog/church-giving-statistics/
given the comments in this thread i suspect that a lot of people responding to the surveys this data was collected from might have rebuffed at the word '
tithe' and checked 'no' even though they do regularly give to the church, so i would look at that 10-25% as a bit of a lower bound, the true percentage of church attendees that participate in offerings being somewhat larger.
to be honest even 35% of the church giving to the ministry is sad. but either way we're looking at a lot more than 5%


it's true that Truett Cathy gave 90% of his income, and that's pretty wonderful thing to see how his business was rewarded. :)
https://www.renegadeentrepreneurs.com/chick-fil-as-truett-cathy/


but let's get all the facts straight if we can ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,522
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Great job you argued the definition of the word for countless hours, majority of Christians when they think of tithing unless they are brand new think of the word in the general sense of giving.
that's not been my experience at all.
the majority of Christians who use the word 'tithe' think specifically of 10 percent of their weekly income being donated directly to the clergy, and they think of it as a requirement i.e. 'what they're supposed to do / expected to do'
furthermore the majority of sermons i have heard on the topic preach Malachi 3 'you have robbed God' rather than Matthew 10 'freely you have been given, freely give'


especially if a believer is 'new' the way giving is preached and taught they have the impression they are under a law to give a specific amount as minimum and to do so weekly. it's especially important to ground new believers in right doctrine. don't you agree? so what should be taught with regard to giving -- Matthew 10 or Malachi 3? should we teach new believers right vocabulary or should we confuse them by abusing language in such a way as to coerce their wallets out of their pockets?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Nobody talks about old testament tithing, unless you start getting deeper into theology.
i just searched sermonaudio, which has a database of almost 2 million sermons.
i found around one thousand five hundred sermons on 'tithing'
i found ten sermons on 'freewill offering'


over 2,000 sermons on Malachi 3 ((hit limit of search))
16 sermons on Matthew 10:8


hmm. are you sure nobody talks about OT tithing?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
25,522
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2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
John 5:39 --- all scripture is about Jesus Christ.

so profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness regarding what? regarding Christ.
the law is a picture-book of Christ. the tithing laws are pictures of Him. so IMO if you look at these laws and think, this is here to instruct me how much my bill for attending church services should be, you're missing the point. we're to look at scripture and find Jesus in it. knowledge of Him will instruct us in how we ought to live, yes. but the primary point of Leviticus isn't to teach us how to go about our business; it's to teach us about the person and work of God.


i didn't notice anyone in this thread talking about the Christology of the Levitical tithing commandments. i think we're not going to see what they really mean until we see how they testify of Him.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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so they see this as a commandment, even if it's not specifically preached as one, and they consequentially look at their Christian walk from a works-based, legalistic framework.
I tithed this way for years because I was taught it and accepted it as a hard and fast expectation of the true believer, just like we all accept 'do not murder' that way. I will tell you one thing I learned. God will not leave you twisting in the wind if you tithe. If you can afford it, and you want to, I recommend tithing into proven, accountable helps ministries. Not churches. Unless you're just really happy with a particular church and want to support it's existence (nothing wrong with that). Technically, though, the tithe was for the Levite himself, not for temple maintenance, which, if I'm not mistaken was done through taxes and free will offerings apart from the tithe.

I think tithing is a good benchmark, or goal, for one's personal giving to help others. It does help keep God foremost and the center of what you do. I would not tithe to a pastor who makes tithing a centerpiece of his ministry and says it's to finance the church. Speaking strictly from opinion, and only in general, the pastor who harps on tithing has an unhealthy love of money based in fear. The church has become a business in which it's leaders take out loans to go to school which they have to pay back. And, many of them think being in service to God entitles them to a safer 'better than the average Joe' life, even if just a little better. The message of tithing is a godsend to them. Too bad they of all people don't know how tithing was actually done in the OT. And if they did, they probably wouldn't want you to know.
 

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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i didn't notice anyone in this thread talking about the Christology of the Levitical tithing commandments.
I had an insight into this once. Shared it in an on line forum. Someone else had it too. I have since forgotten what it was. I hate when that happens.

Just like one time for a moment I could see and feel what it meant when Jesus said to Peter that someone else will dress you, referring to when he (Peter) would die for Him. Haven't had it since. I only know I had it.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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I might be kicking a hornets nest, but I would like to know what some people’s opinions on the matter are. Are we called to give a tenth as the Israelites were, or do we give according what’s in our heart? Please let me know. I look forward to a spirited(And friendly) discussion.
I have not read in the Old Testament where tithes were money, but animals, and food, and I have not heard of it being money from someone else.

So why do they say give money for tithes.

The early Church sold all they had that was not a necessity, and distributed the money to the saints as every person had need.

Charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love, no love, no faith.

Love is the fulfilling of the law, and money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, which Paul said if they go by money for their wants they have erred from the faith.

Paul said he could have all faith so as to remove mountains, but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

And if anybody preaches that God blesses with money and material things for their wants withdraw yourself from them having food and clothing be content.

James said if they do not have charity their faith is dead.

John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them, so do not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

God only blesses us with our needs, and not our wants.

But the saints should provide food and clothing to the preacher if they have a need like they should do the same for all the saints.

But I do not understand the preacher's birthday in which they give money, and their vacation which they give money, or their anniversary, or anything else where they give money that is not for a need.

And the Bible says the preacher is not to be in the ministry for the money.

The tithes are the same as the Old Testament where it went to the priests to take care of their needs which the tithes coming in to the Church is for those that have a need.

Offerings can go towards other things like the building, maintenance, or whatever that furthers the kingdom of God.

And God said whatever a person purposes in their own heart let them give that which is offerings, and all the saints have to take care of the poor and needy.

But if tithes are for the saints that have need then what do tithes mean for there is no 10 percent but whatever is above your needs to help people.

Which some people might cry about tithes not wanting to believe it for they do not want to give up a tenth of their money for then they cannot enjoy their wants, but some could actually afford 50 percent and that is what they should do for there is no percentage in giving when helping the poor and needy for it is all the time.

So tithes mean nothing when we are to take care of the saints with their needs which can be 3 percent, 10 percent, or 80 percent.

And God said those that are rich distribute your money, which can cause many people to not believe Christianity, or not to believe among the saints because they will believe it is all a money grubbing system.

Which does not help that many preachers are living by their wants and some abundantly believing God blesses them with that so they take advantage of the saints, some even telling them what to give.

If a preacher has 1000 people as part of their congregation and each one gave a 100 dollars, which is 100,000 dollars do people think it could all go for the preacher for them to enjoy for they are to go by the same standard as everyone else going by their needs.

We are to feed and clothe the saints that have need if it is possible, and we only go by our needs and not our wants, which is whatever percentage that is for having food and clothing be content, which in the Old Testament 10 percent, but can be more than 10 percent in the New Testament.

I know a lot of people do not want to pay 10 percent and only go by their needs for then there is no Playstation, or Nintendo and games, and no vacation, and cruises, and going by their wants and they sure do not want to pay more than 10 percent.

That is because not all who claim Christ is willing to make the sacrifice and stop enjoying their wants, and fleshy pleasures, which God said they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, and do not want to give up the bragging saying look what I got like the world.

Having Cribitis, or the Baby Crib Syndrome, wah, notice me, give me attention, and the child show and tell mentality look what I got.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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ok, suppose they did tithe. who do you suppose Abraham & Isaac & Jacob gave a regular tenth to?
there wasn't a tabernacle. there weren't Levites. there were poor - there are always poor - is this who they tithed to?
do you reckon they traveled to Salem and gave to Melchizedek every year? i suppose that's possible. before the law was given, what other priest is ever mentioned?
or do you figure they simply gave a tenth of everything in thanksgiving offerings by fire? if that's so, which model should we follow - should we burn a tenth of our income on an altar by fire? or give it to the poor? or give it to a priest? but we're called a nation of priests - every one. who is the Levite in the new covenant?
This will be an interesting question that scripture chose to remain silent. All it says is that Jacob for example, promised to give back to Jehovah a tithe. Genesis 28:22

My best guess is that he made sure he gave a burnt offering of animals for that purpose. There was no money used then but he was richer than Abraham or Issac, Abraham being stated to be full of livestock, and scripture recorded the following about the Lord multiplying Jacob's livestock in Genesis 30-31, that God conspires against Laban to increase the wealth of Jacob by making Jacob's flocks grow. And it is from these flocks that he would have tithed. The customary way of doing so was through making an offering.

Genesis 30:31 ...“Don’t give me anything,” Jacob replied. “But if you will do this one thing for me, I will go on tending your flocks and watching over them

43 In this way the man grew exceedingly prosperous and came to own large flocks, and female and male servants, and camels and donkeys.

Given that in making his vow Jacob builds an altar, this is likely the means by which he intends to give a tenth to God.
 
Jan 9, 2020
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McDonald's is almost 4 times bigger than Chik-Fil-A in terms of gross sales in the US and has more than 10 times as many franchises just in America alone, and McDonald's is worldwide whereas 'Christian Chicken' is more or less only in the Bible belt.
Chik-Fil-A's restaurants are on average individually about 1.5 times as profitable as an average McDonald's - but IMO there is no way one can legitimately say they're '
bigger than McDonald's' -- that's just factually incorrect.
https://www.qsrmagazine.com/content/qsr50-2019-top-50-chart



statistics i could find for % of regular church-goers that 'tithe' is between 10% and 25%
https://pushpay.com/blog/church-giving-statistics/
given the comments in this thread i suspect that a lot of people responding to the surveys this data was collected from might have rebuffed at the word '
tithe' and checked 'no' even though they do regularly give to the church, so i would look at that 10-25% as a bit of a lower bound, the true percentage of church attendees that participate in offerings being somewhat larger.
to be honest even 35% of the church giving to the ministry is sad. but either way we're looking at a lot more than 5%


it's true that Truett Cathy gave 90% of his income, and that's pretty wonderful thing to see how his business was rewarded. :)
https://www.renegadeentrepreneurs.com/chick-fil-as-truett-cathy/


but let's get all the facts straight if we can ;)
Sorry should of clarified meant they are more successful per store and closed on Sunday, when I read the article they made almost 2X per store vs. McDonald’s almost.

So it would most likely make them the most successful franchise, per store numbers.

Regarding giving that seems extremely high this puts it at 3-5%, and others I’ve read put it at 5% max. Unless you’re reading about just Protestant denomination or something. And even out of the 5% how many are giving at least 10% probably only a certain % too.

Which means very low numbers:
https://www.church-development.com/blog/on-tithing-how-many-churchgoers-tithe

https://www.cdfcapital.org/tithing-generosity/
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,299
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Tithing is a requirement of the Law, period. You can love your neighbor generously and never "tithe".

You make the same mistake that many Christians make: assuming that Christian giving is tithing. It is not; they are quite distinct.
You right that tithing is a law.

But you have to Remember Jesus say all the law hang oN love

37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. ... [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt lovethy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So Jesus say oN those command hang oN ALl the law, all include tithing.

So the real porpuse of tithing law is love

The real porpuse of law do not kill is love etc.

Is giving 10 percent a give? Yes

Is giving 5 percent a give? Yes.

But I agree with you law of tithing is No longer efective for Christian, but law of love is.

Is law of love require giving money? It may Yes or No deppend the case
 
Nov 8, 2019
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London, England
John 5:39 --- all scripture is about Jesus Christ.

so profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness regarding what? regarding Christ.
the law is a picture-book of Christ. the tithing laws are pictures of Him. so IMO if you look at these laws and think, this is here to instruct me how much my bill for attending church services should be, you're missing the point. we're to look at scripture and find Jesus in it. knowledge of Him will instruct us in how we ought to live, yes. but the primary point of Leviticus isn't to teach us how to go about our business; it's to teach us about the person and work of God.


i didn't notice anyone in this thread talking about the Christology of the Levitical tithing commandments. i think we're not going to see what they really mean until we see how they testify of Him.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


Your statement about the "Christology of the Levitical Tithing Commandments has provided much food for thought. We must admit, as is plainly evident, that the Vail/Veil is upon the heart. Where is the Mind of Christ?
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
690
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My point was that to use the argument from silence, that "Oh scripture did not spell out that Abraham/Issac or Jacob tithe regularly from their possessions to the Lord" is dubious. If Scripture had to record such regular tithing, it will sound like what I have given as examples.

Looks like the idea of tithing existing before the Law is difficult for people to accept. Okay, as I have said, if you prefer to call that giving instead of tithing, I am fine too.

My reply in post #108 exposed your shameful adding to scripture in Genesis chapter 18.

This reply points out your blatantly deceitful display of adding to scripture. In Gen 26, to promote your false tithing narrative

KJV
Genesis 26:12 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the Lord blessed him.

AMP
Genesis 26:12 Then Isaac planted [seed] in that land [as a farmer] and reaped in the same year a hundred times [as much as he had planted], and the Lord blessed and favored him.

ESV
Genesis 26:12 And Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same year a hundredfold. The Lord blessed him,

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
Genesis 26:12 And Isaac sowed in that land, and he found that same year a hundredfold: and the Lord blessed him.

NIV
Genesis 26:12 Isaac planted crops in that land and the same year reaped a hundredfold, because the Lord blessed him.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,636
511
113
My reply in post #108 exposed your shameful adding to scripture in Genesis chapter 18.

This reply points out your blatantly deceitful display of adding to scripture. In Gen 26, to promote your false tithing narrative

KJV
Genesis 26:12 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the Lord blessed him.

AMP
Genesis 26:12 Then Isaac planted [seed] in that land [as a farmer] and reaped in the same year a hundred times [as much as he had planted], and the Lord blessed and favored him.

ESV
Genesis 26:12 And Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same year a hundredfold. The Lord blessed him,

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
Genesis 26:12 And Isaac sowed in that land, and he found that same year a hundredfold: and the Lord blessed him.

NIV
Genesis 26:12 Isaac planted crops in that land and the same year reaped a hundredfold, because the Lord blessed him.
You don’t understand the use of a hypothetical “if”?

Why do you keep harping on this like a modern day Pharisee?
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
690
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Why do you keep harping on this like a modern day Pharisee?

My reply,
In each case I have posted a reply to your questions to me.

Find here your deceitful work in post #91

QUOTE "Genesis 18:33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home, and Abraham tithe to the Lord

(NOTE: here you added this to scripture """and Abraham tithe to the Lord"""

Genesis 26:12 Isaac planted crops in that land and the same year reaped a hundredfold, because the Lord blessed him, and Issac tithe to the Lord. END QUOTE

(NOTE: here you added this to scripture """and Issac tithe to the Lord""")

First you deceitfully add to scripture, promoting a false tithe narrative. And now you falsely accuse me of being, again, QUOTE "a modern day Pharisee".

If there is a law promoting Pharisee in our exchange, it isn't me!
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,636
511
113
My reply,
In each case I have posted a reply to your questions to me.

Find here your deceitful work in post #91

QUOTE "Genesis 18:33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home, and Abraham tithe to the Lord

(NOTE: here you added this to scripture """and Abraham tithe to the Lord"""

Genesis 26:12 Isaac planted crops in that land and the same year reaped a hundredfold, because the Lord blessed him, and Issac tithe to the Lord. END QUOTE

(NOTE: here you added this to scripture """and Issac tithe to the Lord""")

First you deceitfully add to scripture, promoting a false tithe narrative. And now you falsely accuse me of being, again, QUOTE "a modern day Pharisee".

If there is a law promoting Pharisee in our exchange, it isn't me!
How did I deceitfully add to scripture when i deliberately bold the addition so that everyone could see it? If that was really my aim, why would I do a thing like that?

In the first place, you were not originally in the discussion, I was discussing with Dino, and you chipped in halfway with all these silly accusations.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
690
213
43
How did I deceitfully add to scripture when i deliberately bold the addition so that everyone could see it? If that was really my aim, why would I do a thing like that?

In the first place, you were not originally in the discussion, I was discussing with Dino, and you chipped in halfway with all these silly accusations.
Nice try, Dino had no part in my post that you replied to. Where you deliberately & deceitfully added to 2 verses of scripture to promote your false tithing narrative.

Find here again your #91 post.
Genesis 18:33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home, and Abraham tithe to the Lord

Genesis 26:12 Isaac planted crops in that land and the same year reaped a hundredfold, because the Lord blessed him, and Issac tithe to the Lord.

Just shameful!!