To all the post trib and no trib believers.

Blain · Dec 22, 2016

The hour is indeed late God has made that absolutely clear in far more ways than one, I could not say if the rapture is the next great event or not as I don't have a stance on the timing of the rapture but I don't think they are embarrassed or trying to destroy the opposition many of whom oppose your view are good hearted believers as I have known many of them for quite a while.

I care far less about the views and understanding a person has about certain doctrine than I do of the heart of the believer themselves in fact if the pretrib rapture is indeed the truth don't be surprised when many of the mid or post trib believers meet Jesus in the sky with you.

Blain · Dec 22, 2016

popeye said:

No I am saying he is both a spirit and a man, Just as God is both a spirit and a man. satan is always copying God Jesus came in the form of a man being both God and man being both of spirit and of flesh and satan in the same way will do likewise.

notuptome · Dec 22, 2016

HisHolly said:

It is the Holy Spirit's presence in the church that restrains at this time. If the church is removed there will be no resistance to the will of the evil one. The unsaved masses are not reading the bible and will be defenseless. In a world where there are no bible preachers calling out sin but only the if it feels good do it preachers to whom shall a soul turn? To the institutional government secular church which gives only deceitful answers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

popeye · Dec 22, 2016

Why would the ac being a man,be off the table?

What is the deal?

popeye · Dec 22, 2016

Blain said:

...as is every man on the planet.

We are all both man and spirit

popeye · Dec 22, 2016

Blain said:

Instead of scolding me,why not jump the one that called pretrib adherants " satanically inspired".

I am calling him on his behavior. It is non productive,and hurts the open debate

Blain · Dec 22, 2016

popeye said:

True but the we as humans have both light and darkness inside us even as believers God is only light and satan is only darkness. If the antichrist was only a man and was not the physical manifestation of the spirit of satan himself then he would simply be another man who is acting on his own accord his own desires.

If we try to separate the man that is the antichrist and the spirit of the antichrist then that is like trying to separate Jesus and the holy spirit you cannot have one or the other.

Blain · Dec 22, 2016

popeye said:

Scolding? I apologize I did not mean to appear that I was scolding you I merely was trying to discuss these things with you. I have already pointed out to all that we are called to love and many times as I am sure you recall I have said how debates are good if done correctly and in a mature calm and loving manner I don't choose sides and I don't support a person with the same doctrine beliefs as me more than i do one whose opposes mine.

Grandpa · Dec 22, 2016

I've heard people argue and discuss their views of prophecy a lot. They are always arguing over literal, physical happenings. Timing of events and such. This has to happen, then this will happen, and then this has to happen.

They are absolutely certain that is the sequence of events. It reminds me of the Jews that crucified Jesus. They were absolutely certain of a sequence of events and it wasn't happening the way they thought. So to them, the Lord Jesus Christ couldn't possibly be their Messiah.

I suppose I am on the outside looking in on this debate. I agree with Depleted. But not because I have reasoned it out.

When I was saved and came to Christ I was allowed to see a few things spiritually. I saw where I was at before Christ and then I saw where I was at with Christ. They were 2 separate places.

No one wants to be in the place I was at before Christ, spiritually. See Psalms 40 Then think about tribulation and rapture and compare...

samuel23 · Dec 22, 2016

The actual Antichrist is a strong spirit being who is presently restrained in the prison for evil spirits. So the restraining force against the Antichrist is the prison he is in, of course, God will determine when to release him. Not only is the Holy Spirit not taken out of the world in 2Thess 2:7, NOTHING is taken out of the world. Read the Greek, he who restrains at present(in the prison for spirits) until out of the midst(midst of humanity) he(Antichrist)be,THEN shall be revealed that wicked one.

Blain · Dec 22, 2016

Grandpa said:

Very insightful my friend

You touched a very good point, we all think we know how it's going to happen that this will happen and this will cause that to happen ect. The truth is we may think we know how this is all going to play out regardless if we are pre mid or post rapture believers but honestly it wouldn't surprise me at all if it happened in a way we never expected. The important thing isn't to be right in how we believe it will happen the important thing is to have our hearts prepared and the only way to do that is to develop a deeper closer love and bond with God in this way it doesn't matter how it happens because love was always stronger

Depleted · Dec 22, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

Remember Pearl Harbor? 3000 died. Remember 9/11? 3000 died. Remember the Nazis? 13 million died.

Remember Rome's genocide of Christians? How many died there? In Rome alone, 100,000 a day for months. Meanwhile, they killed every single man, woman, and child in Jerusalem. All of them, whether they were Christians or not. And how long did they seek out others to kill? 200+ years! And Rome failed, while Alexandria did exterminate every single Christian.

How do you know what might happen in the future, if you have absolutely no understanding of what already happened in the past? God's going to pull us out of this? Really? What did the first Christians do that was so wrong they didn't get the free pass? Parents huddled with their children in that Coliseum with full understanding that the only reason they weren't dead yet was because the lions were too full to eat yet. The lions were right there with them. Yards away just licking their chops and washing their muzzles from the blood while people watched. Sometimes those families huddled for a couple of weeks before the lions got hungry enough to get to them. Some starved to death or dehydrated enough while waiting. And, in all that time, they could save their children by simply denouncing Jesus. Their children! Yet they could not. What would you be saying to your children in such a situation? Why are those future Christians so protected from what is coming when past Christians and present Christians are not?

This world has seen much more than your personal beliefs acknowledge.

You keep preaching your god of pretribbedness. I don't usually bother responding to you because what you believe has no base in the Bible or reality. But when what you preach has no base but how you will be saved out of hard times, I also don't believe you preach God either.

I've had a bumpy ride most of my life. Compared to those Christians, it's been smooth sailing. God saves. Pretrib does not.

Depleted · Dec 22, 2016

Blain said:

The debate doesn't tear us apart. The ease at how some (and I mean "some," since I've seen more than one do this in this thread) will lie to "prove" their point does. And, at this point, I no longer think some of us are "us."

Depleted · Dec 22, 2016

popeye said:

You aren't into open debate. You're into scolding everyone who disagrees with you, and then get upset when Blain won't defend you.

Blain · Dec 22, 2016

Depleted said:

It's ok popeye has helped me and has taught me far more than I can count and also was one of the people who helped me understand my calling in Christ he normally is calm cool and collected and we are all human after all

Depleted · Dec 22, 2016

Blain said:

I haven't seen the cool calm Popeye in over a year.

Ahwatukee · Dec 22, 2016

samuel23 said:

The antichrist, the man of sin, is a literal man who is not in the Abyss. The beast, that angel that is currently in the Abyss, will be released at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. It is important to understand that the antichrist is a literal human being and the beast, is a fallen angel who is currently in the Abyss. When he is released, he will be the power behind the antirchrist.

Though the beast is currently restricted in the Abyss, that is not what is meant by the one who is currently restraining the antichrist from being revealed. For the restrainer is referred to as "the one" and as "He" which demonstrates that the one restraining is an active, conscious entity that is keeping the full force of sin and the antichrist from being revealed until the proper time.

"And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but [the one] who now restrains him will continue until [he]is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival.

Grammatically speaking, It would not be proper to refer to the Abyss as "the one" and as "He" as the one who is doing the restraining.

samuel23 · Dec 22, 2016

If you locked me up in a jail then it is you(a person) who is restraining me, however it is also a fact that the jail is restraining me. God has the Antichrist restrained by placing him in a place of restraint and when God releases him from that place of restraint then he will be free to do his evil work. The Antichrist has several titles, he is the Little Horn, Antichrist, Man of sin, Son of perdition, Rider on the white horse, the Beast that was and is not and yet is. The very first seal that starts everything is when the Antichrist is released to conquer the world. Again,note, there is NO taken out of the way,read it in the Greek.

dcontroversal · Dec 22, 2016

samuel23 said:

I have said for some time that when it is TIME he will arise....Of course I was raked over the coals and accused of attributing the workings of the Spirit to Satan and told to repent.....

Funny thing....When they attempted to take Jesus...He escaped out of their midst and the bible records that HIS HOUR HAD NOT YET COME

John 7:30 So they were seeking to seize Him; and no man laid his hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come.

God is a God of timing.....everything is planned, each day is made and whether it be Jesus being taken and crucified or the man of sin rising....it is ALL according to God's plan and TIME FRAME...

It is BIBLICAL to say that Time is also ONE element that restrains...Just as it did with JESUS and his HOUR, so shall it be with the MAN OF SIN....

Yea it even states this about the CONCEPTION and BIRTH OF JESUS......

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

This principle rings TRUE throughout the BIBLE.........

pottersclay · Dec 22, 2016

WHY DO WE BELIEVE IN THE IMMINENT RETURN OF CHRIST?
There are a number of reasons. (1) First, we see clearly that the Rapture is not identical with the Revelation, commonly called the Second Coming of Christ. There are some obvious differences. The Rapture relates to the Church, when the dead in Christ shall rise and the living will be translated to meet the Lord in the air (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:16-17). It expresses hope and a warm spirit of expectancy (1 Thess. 1:10), all of which should result in a victorious and purified life (1 John 3:2-3).
On the other hand, the Second Coming of Christ does not deal primarily with the saint but with the sinner. When Christ returns to earth, Armageddon must be terminated (Rev. 19:17-18), the Beast and the False Prophet will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 19:19-20), Satan shall be bound in the abyss (Rev. 20:1-3), the nations of earth will be gathered and judged (Matt. 25:31-46), and Israel, which has gone through deep trial, will now behold and put their trust in Christ, their true Messiah (Zech. 12:10; Rom. 11:26-27).
(2) There is a vast difference in the language used for these two events. While both relate to the endtime and both describe actions on the part of Christ, early believers were taught to look for the Savior (Phil. 3:20; Titus 2:13). "Unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb. 9:28). Likewise, they were to wait for God's Son from heaven (1 Thess. 1:10). They were to watch and be sober (1 Thess. 5:6), and to comfort one anotherwith the hope of Christ's coming (1 Thess. 4:18). These frequent exhortations caused them to believe that the return of Christ was imminent.
Paul seemed to include himself among those who looked for Christ's return (1 Thess. 4:15, 17; 2 Thess. 2:1). Timothy was exhorted to "keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 6:14). Jewish converts were reminded that "yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb. 10:37). Many have concluded that the expectation of some was so strong they had ceased their work and had to be exhorted to return to their labors (2 Thess. 3:10-12), and all were exhorted to have patience (James 5:8). Finally, John concluded the book of Revelation and closed the canon of Scripture with the glad cry: "He which testifies these things says, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20). Such Scriptures form the very foundation for the widely acclaimed hope of Christ's imminent return.
How very different is the language of the Second Advent when Christ returns to deal with the unbelief and rebellion of the wicked. In that day, He will "in flaming fire take vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess. 1:8). Failure to distinguish Rapture from Revelation has become a major source of confusion among the various schools of eschatology.
(3) Imminency has been the consistent belief of evangelical Christians down through the centuries. While theological terms such as trinity, theophany imminency inerrancy and premillenial developed gradually over the centuries, it is clear that although they did not use the term, imminency was indeed the expectation of the Apostolic Church.
John F. Walvoord, a prime authority in the field of Bible eschatology, forcefully states and illustrates this truth:
"The central feature of pretribulationism, the doctrine of imminency, is, however, a prominent feature of the doctrine of the early church ... [which] lived in constant expectation of the coming of the Lord for His church."[1]
He then quotes the Didache dated about 100-120 A.D., which contains the exhortation:
"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh."[2]
Adolph Harnack, although a member of the liberal theological school, out of sheer honesty as an historian, has written:
"In the history of Christianity three main forces are found to have acted as auxiliaries to the gospel. They have elicited the ardent enthusiasm of men whom the bare preaching of the gospel would never have made decided converts. These [include] a belief in the speedy return of Christ and in His glorious reign on earth .... First in point of time came the faith in the nearness of Christ's second advent and the establishing of His reign of glory on the earth. Indeed it appears so early that it might be questioned whether it ought not to be regarded as an essential part of the Christian religion."[3]
Jesse Forest Silver, in his excellent book The Lord's Return has written of the Apostolic Fathers:
,,They expected the return of the Lord in their day .... They believed the time was imminent because their Lord had taught them to live in a watchful attitude." And concerning the Ante- Nicene Fathers, he says: "By tradition they knew the faith of the Apostles. They taught the doctrine of the imminent and premillenial return of the Lord. "[4]
It is generally agreed that the Christian Church of the first three centuries was Premillenial, although the common term used was Chiliasm, from the Greek chiliad meaning "thousand." It is less clear when the concept of Christ's soon return was first explicitly stated as imminentwhich is a theological word rather than a Biblical. Richard Reiter has traced it to the Niagara Bible Conference of 1878, and more specifically to the five resolutions of the first general American Bible and prophetic conference held in New York City the same year. Article 3 stated: "This second coming of the Lord is everywhere in the Scriptures represented as imminent, and may occur at any moment."[5] However, among the Niagara delegates arose three different definitions of imminent (1) Christ may appear at any moment, but this will be understood only by the final generation of the Church (A. J. Gordon). (2) Christ could return within the lifetime of any individual generation of believers (Samuel H. Kellogg). (3) "Imminent" requires "the coming of Christ for his saints as possible any hour" (Arthur T. Pierson).
While this third "any moment" view was evidently dominant at Niagara, the years that followed brought some harsh disputes, especially by Canadian pastor, Robert Cameron and Presbyterian theologian Nathaniel West, both of whom defended the Posttribulational view. Their position was opposed by men like Lutheran minister, George N. H. Peters; Congregational pastor, C. I. Scofield; Presbyterian missionary spokesman, Arthur T. Pierson; and Arno C. Gaebelein, editor of Our Hope all of whom became strong champions of the Pretribulational position. Ultimately, most Posttribs gave up the concept of imminency, and "Pretribulationism emerged as the dominant view of the Rapture within American premillennialism."[6]
While most Posttribulationists now vigorously repudiate imminency, it is significant that one of their number, J. Barton Payne, just as vigorously asserts that it was a major belief of the early Christian Church. He even names his book on the subject The Imminent Appearing of Christ![7]
When one studies the New Testament Rapture passages and the exhortations to look watchand wait for Christ's coming, it is easy to see why so many of the Lord's people believe in and proclaim the doctrine of imminency. The expression has been incorporated into the doctrinal statement of many evangelical churches and missionary agencies. Indeed, it forms part of the basic doctrine of many excellent Christian colleges and theological seminaries throughout the world. The great expectation of the Church is to look for Christ and not Antichrist!

To all the post trib and no trib believers.

The Word Weaver

The Word Weaver

Senior Member

popeye

Guest

popeye

Guest

popeye

Guest

The Word Weaver

The Word Weaver

Senior Member

Banned

The Word Weaver

Depleted

Guest

Depleted

Guest

Depleted

Guest

The Word Weaver

Depleted

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

pottersclay

Guest