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The reason this is getting ridiculous is because of your bogus claim that he is not a man,and now you got to take that ridiculousness into a parade of names for the demon controlling him.
You do this with every concept of end times.
So tedious to debate no brainers.
He is a man possessed.
Hello,ALL DEMONS AND SATAN ARE ANTICHRIST.
Anti =against as well as a "type" of Christ.
That is THE PURPOSE OF THE MIRACLES,THE WHITE HORSE,AND HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.
He literally HAS TO BE A MAN.
YOU ARE,AS USUAL,On A RABBIT TRAIL
You do this with every concept of end times.
So tedious to debate no brainers.
He is a man possessed.
Hello,ALL DEMONS AND SATAN ARE ANTICHRIST.
Anti =against as well as a "type" of Christ.
That is THE PURPOSE OF THE MIRACLES,THE WHITE HORSE,AND HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.
He literally HAS TO BE A MAN.
YOU ARE,AS USUAL,On A RABBIT TRAIL
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If I recall we are both spirit and flesh if we were spirit alone we would never die or decay. I understand that you very much disagree with the idea that the spirit of the antichrist will become one of flesh as well but I am not trying to save anything I am merely discussing what I believe is the truth and if it contradicts your truth then I apologize but the antichrist is spoken of in the bible as an actual person who will bring on suffering the likes this world has never seen he is known and spoken of as the man of sin not the spirit of sin
So ahwatukee I decided to read all the post in this thread and came across what you posted. You quoted Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10 to support your contention that God will not subject Christians to wrath. My question to you is what kind of wrath does the context indicate in these two verses you quoted?
It is clear from reading the context in both verses that the "wrath" is not talking specifically talking about wrath that comes from the second coming but "wrath" that is awaiting those who have rejected Jesus Christ, i.e hell. In other words, the context is about salvation. Other verses support the immediate context of salvation wrath which are Colossians 3:5,6, 1 Thessolonians 2:16, Ephesians 5:19 and 1 Thessolonians 5:9.
And specfically if you look at 1 Thessolonians 1:10 where it mentions, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." This verse is backed up by 2 Thessolonians 1:6-8, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, and to give RELIEF/REST to you who are afficted and to us as well (WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
Notice that these verses are in perfect harmony with each other and with Matthew 24 especially vs3 regarding the end of the age. And if you continue reading 2 Thessolonians 2 and 3 the Apostle Paul expands on what will happen like the restraining of the Holy Spirit regarding the lawless one. And btw, at 2 Thessoloninas 2:6,7 the Holy Spirit is releasing His power, He, the Holy Spirit is not leaving. Too me this is all pretty much cut and dry just by following the sequence of events.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
It is clear from reading the context in both verses that the "wrath" is not talking specifically talking about wrath that comes from the second coming but "wrath" that is awaiting those who have rejected Jesus Christ, i.e hell. In other words, the context is about salvation. Other verses support the immediate context of salvation wrath which are Colossians 3:5,6, 1 Thessolonians 2:16, Ephesians 5:19 and 1 Thessolonians 5:9.
And specfically if you look at 1 Thessolonians 1:10 where it mentions, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." This verse is backed up by 2 Thessolonians 1:6-8, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, and to give RELIEF/REST to you who are afficted and to us as well (WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
Notice that these verses are in perfect harmony with each other and with Matthew 24 especially vs3 regarding the end of the age. And if you continue reading 2 Thessolonians 2 and 3 the Apostle Paul expands on what will happen like the restraining of the Holy Spirit regarding the lawless one. And btw, at 2 Thessoloninas 2:6,7 the Holy Spirit is releasing His power, He, the Holy Spirit is not leaving. Too me this is all pretty much cut and dry just by following the sequence of events.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Hello Bluto,
In 1 Thes.4:13-17, Paul gives a detailed account of the gathering of the church, both dead and living. Then following that he mentions the wrath which follows "when they say peace and safety." In regards to this Paul says, "They (unbelievers) will not escape, but you brothers are not in darkness that this day (the gathering of the church and the wrath that follows) should surprise you like a thief." Then regarding this coming wrath in 5:9 Paul says that "we are not appointed to suffer wrath." Therefore, here in the letter to the Thessalonians Paul is referring to the wrath that follows the gathering of the church and not specifically to judgment in the lake of fire.
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
In the scripture above, the definite article is being used "The coming wrath." The OT prophets, along with the apostles, were well aware of the coming wrath, which they also refer to as "the day of the Lord." The gathering of the church in fact is apart of the day of the Lord and is what initiates it. There is a time period of wrath coming upon this earth leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, referred to as "the day of the Lord" and as "the hour of trial." It is this time of wrath that Paul is speaking of.
But regarding your claim, we has believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer any wrath regardless of whether it is the wrath that coming upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments or God's wrath at the great white throne judgment where the unrighteous will be condemned and thrown into the lake of fire. Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath and that because Jesus already experienced that wrath for every believer.
So whether the coming wrath or the wrath regarding judgment and the lake of fire it is a moot point, for believers are not appointed to suffer any wrath at all.
It is very important to understand the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said that believers would suffer vs. the coming wrath of God. Because of this lack of understanding, people continue to put the living church through God's coming wrath, which as I said, will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, of which we the bride/church will not go through.
I hope that this beneficial
In 1 Thes.4:13-17, Paul gives a detailed account of the gathering of the church, both dead and living. Then following that he mentions the wrath which follows "when they say peace and safety." In regards to this Paul says, "They (unbelievers) will not escape, but you brothers are not in darkness that this day (the gathering of the church and the wrath that follows) should surprise you like a thief." Then regarding this coming wrath in 5:9 Paul says that "we are not appointed to suffer wrath." Therefore, here in the letter to the Thessalonians Paul is referring to the wrath that follows the gathering of the church and not specifically to judgment in the lake of fire.
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
In the scripture above, the definite article is being used "The coming wrath." The OT prophets, along with the apostles, were well aware of the coming wrath, which they also refer to as "the day of the Lord." The gathering of the church in fact is apart of the day of the Lord and is what initiates it. There is a time period of wrath coming upon this earth leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, referred to as "the day of the Lord" and as "the hour of trial." It is this time of wrath that Paul is speaking of.
But regarding your claim, we has believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer any wrath regardless of whether it is the wrath that coming upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments or God's wrath at the great white throne judgment where the unrighteous will be condemned and thrown into the lake of fire. Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath and that because Jesus already experienced that wrath for every believer.
So whether the coming wrath or the wrath regarding judgment and the lake of fire it is a moot point, for believers are not appointed to suffer any wrath at all.
It is very important to understand the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said that believers would suffer vs. the coming wrath of God. Because of this lack of understanding, people continue to put the living church through God's coming wrath, which as I said, will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, of which we the bride/church will not go through.
I hope that this beneficial
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OK Pop, Exactly what the Antichrist is, is still a mystery. It is generally believed that he will be a normal man who will somehow be indwelt by a powerful spirit being. My position is that the REAL Antichrist is a mighty spirit being not a human being, though he may use a human host. Paul tells us in 2Thess 2:6-7 that the Son of Perdition(Antichrist) is presently restrained. Rev 17:8 The Beast(Antichrist) WAS(previously existed), is not(presently restrained), and shall ascend out of the abyss(where he is presently restrained) and go into perdition(lake of fire). The entire army of the Antichrist is killed(because they are human)yet the Antichrist is not killed but cast alive into the lake of fire(angels cannot die). I believe the real Antichrist is a very powerful angel that went with Satan...will he indwell a human host?, maybe, maybe not, not sure on that one.
Hello Samuel23,
I think that we are pretty much on the same page, it is just that I believe that the antichrist is a literal man who will be controlled by that beast, the angel that comes out of the Abyss. In other words, from scripture, I believe that there are two entities involved here, 1) the antichrist who is a human being and 2) the beast who is that angel of the Abyss who is currently restrained there. I believe that when scripture says that the beast is thrown into the lake of fire alive, that it is referring to both the antichrist as a man and the beast who possesses him.
Every person who comes into existence will exist forever. When the army of the Antichrist is killed, their spirits will depart from the body and go into Sheol/Hades where they will remain until the great white throne judgment. The antichrist/beast will immediately be thrown into the lake of fire when Christ returns to the earth to end the age.
I think that we are pretty much on the same page, it is just that I believe that the antichrist is a literal man who will be controlled by that beast, the angel that comes out of the Abyss. In other words, from scripture, I believe that there are two entities involved here, 1) the antichrist who is a human being and 2) the beast who is that angel of the Abyss who is currently restrained there. I believe that when scripture says that the beast is thrown into the lake of fire alive, that it is referring to both the antichrist as a man and the beast who possesses him.
Every person who comes into existence will exist forever. When the army of the Antichrist is killed, their spirits will depart from the body and go into Sheol/Hades where they will remain until the great white throne judgment. The antichrist/beast will immediately be thrown into the lake of fire when Christ returns to the earth to end the age.
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I want to thank bluto and Samuel for asking these questions. This is how a discussion should be.
In our pre-trib belief it is not blind faith but as my brother points out it is what the Lord has shown us.
To understand there are 2events taking place here I pray helps redefine ones position. It is with great care and study along with much prayer that pre trib has been accepted as doctrine.
The scriptures do show a sudden event to take place along with a event that is brought on by signs and wonders.
To refute this is moot.
Jesus said you believe in the God also believe in me whom the father has sent.
I go to prepare a place for you so that where I am you also shall be. I will come again to receive you to my self.
As the loving groom to keep his bride out of harms way.
As a thief in the night rescuing his damsel before distress.
A interesting fact before he ascended after the resurrection he was only seen and touched by believers no record made of non believers seeing him. Is it safe to assume that what the Angel said that he will come again for believers only to receive them unto himself before the great and terrible day of the Lord?
In our pre-trib belief it is not blind faith but as my brother points out it is what the Lord has shown us.
To understand there are 2events taking place here I pray helps redefine ones position. It is with great care and study along with much prayer that pre trib has been accepted as doctrine.
The scriptures do show a sudden event to take place along with a event that is brought on by signs and wonders.
To refute this is moot.
Jesus said you believe in the God also believe in me whom the father has sent.
I go to prepare a place for you so that where I am you also shall be. I will come again to receive you to my self.
As the loving groom to keep his bride out of harms way.
As a thief in the night rescuing his damsel before distress.
A interesting fact before he ascended after the resurrection he was only seen and touched by believers no record made of non believers seeing him. Is it safe to assume that what the Angel said that he will come again for believers only to receive them unto himself before the great and terrible day of the Lord?
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Not only that but post trib is a PROVEN IMPOSSIBILITY.
You also mention the "2".
"2" is a dynamic of heaven that postrib either ignores,refuses,or just knows nothing about.
They make the GT the center,and Jesus and heaven minor players,or even left out of the picture.
Now,you would think such a defective foundation could not possibly exist,but they not only believe it,and promote it,they ,when shown its utter impossibility dig in "deeper".
You also mention the "2".
"2" is a dynamic of heaven that postrib either ignores,refuses,or just knows nothing about.
They make the GT the center,and Jesus and heaven minor players,or even left out of the picture.
Now,you would think such a defective foundation could not possibly exist,but they not only believe it,and promote it,they ,when shown its utter impossibility dig in "deeper".
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I would have to double check,but I think Daniel also depicts him as a man. It is one thing to examine that concept,which is good to do.
What he and others ore doing is taking even the POSSIBILITY of the ac being a man off the table.
I can tell you that when that happens,someone is putting doctrine over the obvious
What he and others ore doing is taking even the POSSIBILITY of the ac being a man off the table.
I can tell you that when that happens,someone is putting doctrine over the obvious
This ahwatukee (what you said about 1 Thess 13-17) is all fine and dandy "BUT" none of this proves when the second comning occurs? I.e before or after the tribulation. The Apostle Paul is clearly explaining to love each other (vs9,10), lead a quite life and work(vs11). Then at vs13 he informs them not to worry about those who have died in the Lord.
He then explains the Lord's coming but nothing in there about "WHEN" which is the point of this discussion. I already exlained chapter 5 and notice at vs 11 Paul says to encourage one another and build up one another, why? If were going to be raptured before the tribulation why do we need to examine everything etc? Then we get to 2 Thessolonians where I already explained when we get rest, vs7 which is clearly after the tribulation.
And to add to that is why does the Apostle John tell us to look or expect the "anti-christ" singular human being (I agree with you on this) 1 John 2:18 if were not going to be here because we've been raptured before the tribulation?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
He then explains the Lord's coming but nothing in there about "WHEN" which is the point of this discussion. I already exlained chapter 5 and notice at vs 11 Paul says to encourage one another and build up one another, why? If were going to be raptured before the tribulation why do we need to examine everything etc? Then we get to 2 Thessolonians where I already explained when we get rest, vs7 which is clearly after the tribulation.
And to add to that is why does the Apostle John tell us to look or expect the "anti-christ" singular human being (I agree with you on this) 1 John 2:18 if were not going to be here because we've been raptured before the tribulation?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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So ahwatukee I decided to read all the post in this thread and came across what you posted. You quoted Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10 to support your contention that God will not subject Christians to wrath. My question to you is what kind of wrath does the context indicate in these two verses you quoted?
It is clear from reading the context in both verses that the "wrath" is not talking specifically talking about wrath that comes from the second coming but "wrath" that is awaiting those who have rejected Jesus Christ, i.e hell. In other words, the context is about salvation. Other verses support the immediate context of salvation wrath which are Colossians 3:5,6, 1 Thessolonians 2:16, Ephesians 5:19 and 1 Thessolonians 5:9.
And specfically if you look at 1 Thessolonians 1:10 where it mentions, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." This verse is backed up by 2 Thessolonians 1:6-8, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, and to give RELIEF/REST to you who are afficted and to us as well (WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
Notice that these verses are in perfect harmony with each other and with Matthew 24 especially vs3 regarding the end of the age. And if you continue reading 2 Thessolonians 2 and 3 the Apostle Paul expands on what will happen like the restraining of the Holy Spirit regarding the lawless one. And btw, at 2 Thessoloninas 2:6,7 the Holy Spirit is releasing His power, He, the Holy Spirit is not leaving. Too me this is all pretty much cut and dry just by following the sequence of events.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
It is clear from reading the context in both verses that the "wrath" is not talking specifically talking about wrath that comes from the second coming but "wrath" that is awaiting those who have rejected Jesus Christ, i.e hell. In other words, the context is about salvation. Other verses support the immediate context of salvation wrath which are Colossians 3:5,6, 1 Thessolonians 2:16, Ephesians 5:19 and 1 Thessolonians 5:9.
And specfically if you look at 1 Thessolonians 1:10 where it mentions, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come." This verse is backed up by 2 Thessolonians 1:6-8, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, vs7, and to give RELIEF/REST to you who are afficted and to us as well (WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN?) when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
Notice that these verses are in perfect harmony with each other and with Matthew 24 especially vs3 regarding the end of the age. And if you continue reading 2 Thessolonians 2 and 3 the Apostle Paul expands on what will happen like the restraining of the Holy Spirit regarding the lawless one. And btw, at 2 Thessoloninas 2:6,7 the Holy Spirit is releasing His power, He, the Holy Spirit is not leaving. Too me this is all pretty much cut and dry just by following the sequence of events.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Revelation says "... Because you have kept my word,I will keep you from....."
And in the gospels it says ".. I will make a way of escape..."
2) you literally prove my point that you guys are "trib centered".
You see God whipping his bride as a true necessity.
(which btw was the doctrine of Margaret McDonald)
Oh the irony!!!
Note, I want it understood that the Antichrist will probably use a human host, however the REAL Antichrist was restrained at the time Paul wrote Thess...does that sound like he is a normal human? The Antichrist has been restrained for 2000 years...does that sound like a regular human? Things will get so bad at the end of the age that demons and the angels of Satan may appear openly to humans, that is why I leave it open for the possibility that the Antichrist may be a mighty angelic being that went with Satan and he may appear openly for what he is, remember this being will actually claim that he IS God.
P
This ahwatukee (what you said about 1 Thess 13-17) is all fine and dandy "BUT" none of this proves when the second comning occurs? I.e before or after the tribulation. The Apostle Paul is clearly explaining to love each other (vs9,10), lead a quite life and work(vs11). Then at vs13 he informs them not to worry about those who have died in the Lord.
He then explains the Lord's coming but nothing in there about "WHEN" which is the point of this discussion. I already exlained chapter 5 and notice at vs 11 Paul says to encourage one another and build up one another, why? If were going to be raptured before the tribulation why do we need to examine everything etc? Then we get to 2 Thessolonians where I already explained when we get rest, vs7 which is clearly after the tribulation.
And to add to that is why does the Apostle John tell us to look or expect the "anti-christ" singular human being (I agree with you on this) 1 John 2:18 if were not going to be here because we've been raptured before the tribulation?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
He then explains the Lord's coming but nothing in there about "WHEN" which is the point of this discussion. I already exlained chapter 5 and notice at vs 11 Paul says to encourage one another and build up one another, why? If were going to be raptured before the tribulation why do we need to examine everything etc? Then we get to 2 Thessolonians where I already explained when we get rest, vs7 which is clearly after the tribulation.
And to add to that is why does the Apostle John tell us to look or expect the "anti-christ" singular human being (I agree with you on this) 1 John 2:18 if were not going to be here because we've been raptured before the tribulation?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You have no verses proving postrib.
Further,the parable of the 10 virgin,proves out,that half are left behind.
Your doctrine falls apart there,and rev 14,and the dynamic of the AC killing all who refuse the mark.
Right there,those 3 no-brainers force you guys to go against the word.
P
Question for post trbs.
You do realize Jesus uses lot and Noah,right?
Now,you do also realize that they were delivered PRE JUDGEMENT?
Not only did Noah not get some imagined post flood rescue,but Lot was not a post judgement rescue,nor was he returned post fire to Sodom.
Do you guys even bother with these OBVIOUS denunciations BY JESUS of your doctrine????
You do realize Jesus uses lot and Noah,right?
Now,you do also realize that they were delivered PRE JUDGEMENT?
Not only did Noah not get some imagined post flood rescue,but Lot was not a post judgement rescue,nor was he returned post fire to Sodom.
Do you guys even bother with these OBVIOUS denunciations BY JESUS of your doctrine????
P
C'MON guys,help me out.
Show me what Jesus is doing against your doctrine,rapturing ripe fruit,during the GT????
What is going on with 5 virgins left behind with no tribulation anywhere in the picture???
Where is there ANY CHRISTIANS to rapture,after the AC kill ALL REFUSING THE MARK????
Is that a fluke?
Was Jesus mistaken???
Show me what Jesus is doing against your doctrine,rapturing ripe fruit,during the GT????
What is going on with 5 virgins left behind with no tribulation anywhere in the picture???
Where is there ANY CHRISTIANS to rapture,after the AC kill ALL REFUSING THE MARK????
Is that a fluke?
Was Jesus mistaken???
And this is where cross-referencing and comparing scripture comes in. As well as having an understanding the nature of God and His coming wrath.
"While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. [But you, brothers and sisters], are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
In the scripture above, after Paul says "they will not escaped" he then says, "but you brothers," grammatically speaking, this would infer the opposite of not escaping i.e. you brother and sisters will escape. And how will they do that? The way that Paul had previously described when he gave them a detailed account of Christ's appearing to gather the church.
First Paul describes the gathering of the church, dead and living, then he mentions the wrath that follows. That is the order in which those events will take place, the gathering of the church, followed by God's coming wrath.
If the church is going to be gathered after God's wrath, how could we comfort one another with the promise of the Lord's appearing and our being gathered? Paul called that event, "the blessed hope." How could it be a blessed hope if the Lord first sends us through his wrath. There would be nothing blessed about it. This belief stems from not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. People have down-played it. They've made it passive, so that it has been fulfilled via historical events. Yet regarding this time Jesus said that it would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Unprecedented! Many attempt to apply this to the destruction of the temple, which does not even come close to the Lord's description.
"While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. [But you, brothers and sisters], are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
In the scripture above, after Paul says "they will not escaped" he then says, "but you brothers," grammatically speaking, this would infer the opposite of not escaping i.e. you brother and sisters will escape. And how will they do that? The way that Paul had previously described when he gave them a detailed account of Christ's appearing to gather the church.
First Paul describes the gathering of the church, dead and living, then he mentions the wrath that follows. That is the order in which those events will take place, the gathering of the church, followed by God's coming wrath.
If the church is going to be gathered after God's wrath, how could we comfort one another with the promise of the Lord's appearing and our being gathered? Paul called that event, "the blessed hope." How could it be a blessed hope if the Lord first sends us through his wrath. There would be nothing blessed about it. This belief stems from not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. People have down-played it. They've made it passive, so that it has been fulfilled via historical events. Yet regarding this time Jesus said that it would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Unprecedented! Many attempt to apply this to the destruction of the temple, which does not even come close to the Lord's description.