To what end did Jesus put an end to the law?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#21
Colossians 2:10-22
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Yup. The Colossians were Judaizing, bending to dissident liberalism, or pagan superstition, maybe all three at once. They were falling into the trap of distortion such as the Pharisee's traditions of men, and the compromise that was leading to Catholicism which is related to the doctrine of Baalam, things that Jesus says He hates in the book record of Revelation.

Older and traditional commentators generally propose a conflict between Paul’s teaching and the discipline of philosophy. In his commentary, Thomas Scott writes, “The Judaizing teachers seem to have blended their system with speculation borrowed from the Pagans, and their different sects of philosophers.” He adds: “The worldly elements of heathen superstition or philosophy were blended with legal and other external observances.”

Unless something of this kind be supposed, it will be found difficult to understand the apostle’s discourse: for he spoke of philosophical delusions and legal ceremonies at the same time. Putting into context Colossians 2:8-9, previously to what you quoted, Grandpa, Paul prefaces the actual subject that he is about ready to address. Then verses 20 thru 22 summarizes the content, with the consequence that will surely follow.

"
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."




 
Last edited:

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,573
6,780
113
#22
The first paragraph of the OP is troubling enough so that I do not want to read further. You appear to be making Jesus Christ LESS than God........and that IS NOT true. HE IS GOD!
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#23
Yup. The Colossians were Judaizing, bending to dissident liberalism, or pagan superstition, maybe all three at once. They were falling into the trap of distortion such as the Pharisee's traditions of men, and the compromise that was leading to Catholicism which is related to the doctrine of Baalam, things that Jesus says He hates in the book record of Revelation.

Older and traditional commentators generally propose a conflict between Paul’s teaching and the discipline of philosophy. In his commentary, Thomas Scott writes, “The Judaizing teachers seem to have blended their system with speculation borrowed from the Pagans, and their different sects of philosophers.” He adds: “The worldly elements of heathen superstition or philosophy were blended with legal and other external observances.”

Unless something of this kind be supposed, it will be found difficult to understand the apostle’s discourse: for he spoke of philosophical delusions and legal ceremonies at the same time. Putting into context Colossians 2:8-9, previously to what you quoted, Grandpa, Paul prefaces the actual subject that he is about ready to address. Then verses 20 thru 22 summarizes the content, with the consequence that will surely follow.

"
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."




1 Timothy 1:5-7
[FONT=&quot]5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

I think it would be easier and more beneficial to use more of Pauls writings to understand what Paul was saying rather than assume he meant something that he never wrote about.

Also, I'm a kjv guy but I think love would have been a better word to use than charity in most places that the kj uses charity. But that's a pretty minor point. Charity is love, of a sort.[/FONT]
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#24
1 Timothy 1:5-7
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

I think it would be easier and more beneficial to use more of Pauls writings to understand what Paul was saying rather than assume he meant something that he never wrote about.

Also, I'm a kjv guy but I think love would have been a better word to use than charity in most places that the kj uses charity. But that's a pretty minor point. Charity is love, of a sort.
I don't think God's commandments are philosophic, philosophic related to being abstract in reference to Colossians 2:8-9 as I previously quoted in my post # 21. However, I surely don't disregard the scripture you quoted. "LOVE" That was good. :)
 
Last edited:

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#25
I don't think God's commandments are philosophic, philosophic related to being abstract in reference to Colossians 2:8-9 as I previously quoted in my post # 21. However, I surely don't disregard the scripture you quoted. "LOVE" That was good. :)
If there are different interpretations of something then there is always room for different philosophies.

Such as your own philosophy that the commandments will bring you righteousness and life. Even though that is against scripture.

Galatians 3:21 [FONT=&quot]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/FONT]
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#26
If there are different interpretations of something then there is always room for different philosophies.

Such as your own philosophy that the commandments will bring you righteousness and life. Even though that is against scripture.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
AMEN!! We cannot be righteous within ourselves. The works of the law without faith in Christ Jesus is vanity.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
#27
If there are different interpretations of something then there is always room for different philosophies.

Such as your own philosophy that the commandments will bring you righteousness and life. Even though that is against scripture.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


Grandpa, put the verse back in its place...

Without our Mediator with GOD coming to overcome and redeem us.. being Born of the Holy Spirit to worship in Spirit and Truth..

We would be at enmity with GODs law...

The verse you misuse is saying that no law could do what the Messiah did for us by GOD's Grace..

Which pertains to the law of works.. law of Moses..

The New Testament is having Faith in the Messiah and keeping the Commandments of GOD.

Old Testament was given to bring the Messiah in to the world to bring Justification by Faith to all. It condemned us all and it gave us all Hope when the promise to Abraham came to us by GOD's Love, Grace, Truth and Mercy.


If you believe not the Testimony of the Messiah who teaches us to Keep the Commandments then who will you believe?
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#28
Grandpa, put the verse back in its place...

Without our Mediator with GOD coming to overcome and redeem us.. being Born of the Holy Spirit to worship in Spirit and Truth..

We would be at enmity with GODs law...

The verse you misuse is saying that no law could do what the Messiah did for us by GOD's Grace..

Which pertains to the law of works.. law of Moses..

The New Testament is having Faith in the Messiah and keeping the Commandments of GOD.

Old Testament was given to bring the Messiah in to the world to bring Justification by Faith to all. It condemned us all and it gave us all Hope when the promise to Abraham came to us by GOD's Love, Grace, Truth and Mercy.


If you believe not the Testimony of the Messiah who teaches us to Keep the Commandments then who will you believe?
I agree, but I don't want to deny some truths that grandpa endorses. I will agree with tongue in cheek. LOL

The way I see it, according to the theme title of this thread, is that Jesus defined the true law (Torah), and put the finishing touch on it. In other words, rightly defined the truth thereof. The Judaizing Pharisees missed the point, and Jesus rebuked them for messing it all up.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

The straight and narrow path has two ditches, one on either side. We tend to fall into one or the other according to our personal doctrines we attempt to push on others. That's what the Pharisees did.

 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
#29
Grandpa and I go way back.. we always have one topic we disagree on.. the Sabbath Commandment.. and often verses like the above are shared to show me my error.. which is fine.. I'm not dissing Grandpa because though we disagree he has never been mean or hateful towards me and attacked me... but we still contend and GOD knows the outcome...


Now if you or I teach people to keep the Sabbath as we do or they die then we will have fallen from Grace and exalting ourselves to the do as I do gang....

We can share our beliefs but we are not at liberty to start beating others up to do what we say...


All must be done in Faith that worketh love.

Glory to Heavenly Father and our Messiah.
 

EarsToHear

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2016
340
8
0
#30
MATTHEW 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This is Jesus teaching what we have just gone over. Not one word that has been written, or Prophesied in the Scriptures will be done away with, not one. The "jot" is the smallest letter in the Hebrew language, and appears like this " ' ", and it is recorded in the original Massoretic text 66,420 times. It is called "yod" and is pronounced "iota". However, the jot, like the tittle have no sound where it is used.

The "tittle" is a small ornament that is placed over Hebrew letters so you can tell the difference between the two letters that are very similar in appearance. It has no sound of its own but eliminates the confusion of identifying Hebrew letters, such as telling the difference between R = resh [ ], and D = deleth [ ]. Jesus has told us that every marking of the original will stay in place, and apply to God's people, until that prophecy has come to pass, or the law has been fulfilled.

Many prophecies are already fulfilled, as well as all the blood sacrifices, and ordinances. Some of the law will not be fulfilled until after judgment day when we enter the eternal age. Then all sin will be done away with, because the tempter, Satan, and all those that followed his ways will be turned to ashes. The health laws are in place to give us a long healthful life while living in the flesh. To break those laws is not so much a sin, but results in poor health, and sickness.

When anyone tells you the Old Testament is done away with, mark him well, for they could care less about your soul. The Old Testament tells us more about the end times, our generation, then all the New Testament combined. In fact, the most complete record of the Millennium age is given in Ezekiel, the last nine chapters, and the record of events of our generation are given in detail in the minor prophets. The reason the Christian nations are in the dark as to their far past is that they reject much of the Old Testament, and they have come to believe the lies of the Kenites. "Those that say they are Jews, and lie, and are of the synagogue of Satan." [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#31
Grandpa, put the verse back in its place...

Without our Mediator with GOD coming to overcome and redeem us.. being Born of the Holy Spirit to worship in Spirit and Truth..

We would be at enmity with GODs law...

The verse you misuse is saying that no law could do what the Messiah did for us by GOD's Grace..

Which pertains to the law of works.. law of Moses..

The New Testament is having Faith in the Messiah and keeping the Commandments of GOD.

Old Testament was given to bring the Messiah in to the world to bring Justification by Faith to all. It condemned us all and it gave us all Hope when the promise to Abraham came to us by GOD's Love, Grace, Truth and Mercy.


If you believe not the Testimony of the Messiah who teaches us to Keep the Commandments then who will you believe?
The Testimony of the Lord is not to teach you to work at keeping commandments.

The Testimony of the Lord is to teach you to Rest in His Finished Work. To show you that Salvation and Righteousness and Joy and Peace and every Blessed Gift comes from God and is not something that you can achieve by your will or your understanding.

The Lord doesn't give all these things and then say "Now continue in your own carnal understanding". He gives these things and tells you to abide in Him.

Colossians 2:2-3
[FONT=&quot]2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.[/FONT]
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#32
MATTHEW 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This is Jesus teaching what we have just gone over. Not one word that has been written, or Prophesied in the Scriptures will be done away with, not one. The "jot" is the smallest letter in the Hebrew language, and appears like this " ' ", and it is recorded in the original Massoretic text 66,420 times. It is called "yod" and is pronounced "iota". However, the jot, like the tittle have no sound where it is used.

The "tittle" is a small ornament that is placed over Hebrew letters so you can tell the difference between the two letters that are very similar in appearance. It has no sound of its own but eliminates the confusion of identifying Hebrew letters, such as telling the difference between R = resh [ ], and D = deleth [ ]. Jesus has told us that every marking of the original will stay in place, and apply to God's people, until that prophecy has come to pass, or the law has been fulfilled.

Many prophecies are already fulfilled, as well as all the blood sacrifices, and ordinances. Some of the law will not be fulfilled until after judgment day when we enter the eternal age. Then all sin will be done away with, because the tempter, Satan, and all those that followed his ways will be turned to ashes. The health laws are in place to give us a long healthful life while living in the flesh. To break those laws is not so much a sin, but results in poor health, and sickness.

When anyone tells you the Old Testament is done away with, mark him well, for they could care less about your soul. The Old Testament tells us more about the end times, our generation, then all the New Testament combined. In fact, the most complete record of the Millennium age is given in Ezekiel, the last nine chapters, and the record of events of our generation are given in detail in the minor prophets. The reason the Christian nations are in the dark as to their far past is that they reject much of the Old Testament, and they have come to believe the lies of the Kenites. "Those that say they are Jews, and lie, and are of the synagogue of Satan." [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]
If all of the jots and tittles are still in effect then you are required to sacrifice animals still.

If you are not sacrificing animals, and yet you know the scriptures, then what is your excuse?
 

EarsToHear

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2016
340
8
0
#33
If all of the jots and tittles are still in effect then you are required to sacrifice animals still.

If you are not sacrificing animals, and yet you know the scriptures, then what is your excuse?
Those are blood ordinances. Christ fulfilled them on the cross.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#34
Those are blood ordinances. Christ fulfilled them on the cross.
So then you contend that some of the law has passed away but some remains.

But this is not what the Lord has said.

The Lord has said that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until ALL is fulfilled.

So if Christ has fulfilled some of the law according to you, then He must have fulfilled all of it according to Himself, based upon what He has said.
 

EarsToHear

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2016
340
8
0
#35
So then you contend that some of the law has passed away but some remains.

But this is not what the Lord has said.

The Lord has said that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until ALL is fulfilled.

So if Christ has fulfilled some of the law according to you, then He must have fulfilled all of it according to Himself, based upon what He has said.
Did you read, with understanding, my first post?

Do you know the difference between an ordinance and the Law?

The first, such as blood ordinances, can be changed or even done away with. As I said before, Christ nailed the blood ordinances to the cross.

God's Law, however, will always remain.
 
Dec 9, 2011
14,004
1,771
113
#36
MATTHEW 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This is Jesus teaching what we have just gone over. Not one word that has been written, or Prophesied in the Scriptures will be done away with, not one. The "jot" is the smallest letter in the Hebrew language, and appears like this " ' ", and it is recorded in the original Massoretic text 66,420 times. It is called "yod" and is pronounced "iota". However, the jot, like the tittle have no sound where it is used.

The "tittle" is a small ornament that is placed over Hebrew letters so you can tell the difference between the two letters that are very similar in appearance. It has no sound of its own but eliminates the confusion of identifying Hebrew letters, such as telling the difference between R = resh [ ], and D = deleth [ ]. Jesus has told us that every marking of the original will stay in place, and apply to God's people, until that prophecy has come to pass, or the law has been fulfilled.

Many prophecies are already fulfilled, as well as all the blood sacrifices, and ordinances. Some of the law will not be fulfilled until after judgment day when we enter the eternal age. Then all sin will be done away with, because the tempter, Satan, and all those that followed his ways will be turned to ashes. The health laws are in place to give us a long healthful life while living in the flesh. To break those laws is not so much a sin, but results in poor health, and sickness.




When anyone tells you the Old Testament is done away with, mark him well, for they could care less about your soul. The Old Testament tells us more about the end times, our generation, then all the New Testament combined. In fact, the most complete record of the Millennium age is given in Ezekiel, the last nine chapters, and the record of events of our generation are given in detail in the minor prophets. The reason the Christian nations are in the dark as to their far past is that they reject much of the Old Testament, and they have come to believe the lies of the Kenites. "Those that say they are Jews, and lie, and are of the synagogue of Satan." [Revelation 2:9; 3:9]
If all of the jots and tittles are still in effect then you are required to sacrifice animals still.

If you are not sacrificing animals, and yet you know the scriptures, then what is your excuse?
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grandpa again.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#37
Did you read, with understanding, my first post?

Do you know the difference between an ordinance and the Law?

The first, such as blood ordinances, can be changed or even done away with. As I said before, Christ nailed the blood ordinances to the cross.

God's Law, however, will always remain.
Can you show from the OT how "blood ordinances" are not part of the law and how they could never be considered as 'jots' or even 'tittles' of the law?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,453
13,377
113
#38
This has nothing to do with nullifying the Law, or portions of it.

not a jot or a tittle.
but for that, there's Romans 6. you can't get to Romans 10 without going through 1-9.
he who has died is freed from sin.
(Romans 6:7)​

officer, officer, you cannot charge a dead man



Romans 10:1-4
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

What does “Christ is the end of the law” really mean?

the English word "
end" here, i'm told, telos, τέλος, is the word you would use if you were describing a planned destination, the "end" of a journey. the final purpose of a set of actions, the culmination of many steps. the X that marks the spot on your treasure map. yes, it can mean 'termination point' in a time-like sense, as time is measured, but that doesn't seem to be the primary intention here in this context - given that Paul praises God in this way in the middle of explaining that those who have been holding the law in order to achieve a particular purpose did not achieve that end.
that purpose is righteousness -- and Christ is the end-game of the law for righteousness.

He is the end-state for righteousness that is established by works: death by it, the wages of sin, because no one is good. no one is worthy. but he who knew no sin, took ours for us and bore our curse - after death, life in Him: resurrection!


the bulk of Romans is a very systematic outlay of reason, built precept on precept. by the time we get to Romans 10 its well established that we all are condemned by the law, that by faith in Him we have died in Christ, are dead to the world, crucified to the flesh and all its works, and to the law, which is the power of sin. that we live by the Spirit. that the law is good - but it's purpose is to bring us to Christ, our Intercessor and our Lamb, because we need Him. that it is the work of God, who shows mercy to whom He shows mercy, and it is not our own work.

it is in this context that Christ is "
the end of the Law for righteousness"

 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,453
13,377
113
#39
If all of the jots and tittles are still in effect then you are required to sacrifice animals still.

If you are not sacrificing animals, and yet you know the scriptures, then what is your excuse?
great question!

there is no more altar on earth, and anyone who sacrifices at any place other than where the LORD has chosen for His name to dwell is to be cut off from the people. ((Deuteronomy 12:4-8, Leviticus 17:2-4, e.g.))

this establishes that there is no more sacrifice for sin, if Hebrews 10:26-27 didn't convince everyone. without that you believe that Christ our Lamb has once and for all atoned for sin, being made a priest not of Aaron, not even being a Levite, but greater, and has necessarily changed the Law ((basically the rest of Hebrews lol)), then you remain condemned under Aaron, because there is no other sacrifice that can be made.

Christ didn't arbitrarily redact some of the Law. He destroyed the sting and power of death -- and the sting of death is sin, and the power of death is the Law ((1 Corinthians 15:56)). where there is no law, there is no trespass ((Romans 4:15)) - with one sacrifice, He has perfected forever all who are being made holy ((Hebrews 10:14)).

so i may be for the cause of Christ as without law, though not lawless, but under the law of Christ ((1 Corinthians 9:21)) - because i serve not in the way of the written code, but in the spirit ((Romans 7:6)) -- death and condemnation now having no more power over me, because in Christ, i have died to it all ((Romans 5-8)) so that i can live toward God
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#40
If all of the jots and tittles are still in effect then you are required to sacrifice animals still.

If you are not sacrificing animals, and yet you know the scriptures, then what is your excuse?
On the other side of this, if the jots and tittles are gone, then so have the "heaven and earth".