TONGUES false teaching.

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ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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That is not what it means at all. Remember the context: manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
That verse isn't nor is unknown tongues ever said to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Paul was talking about when someone is speaking in a foreign language when no one else understands that particular human language.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Yawn: false dichotomy.
Doesn't change that "Now you're arguing that it means "accents". " is false. People heard them speaking not only in their own language but also in the dialektos/dialect of that language down to the very place where they were born which you earlier claimed was eisegesis but that was spoken in ignorance of the Greek wording used in the passage.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

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A bunch of people speaking different languages at the same time could be why some assumed that they were drunk.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Doesn't change that "Now you're arguing that it means "accents". " is false. People heard them speaking not only in their own language but also in the dialektos/dialect of that language
Here are your earlier words:

2. Someone speaking and everyone who hears them understands what they are saying perfectly no matter what language the hearer understands? Not only do they understand it, they hear it in their native accent. That's how perfectly the message is understood.
An "accent" is not a "dialect". Get your terms correct.

Nothing in the text states that there was a miracle on the hearers' side. It merely records the event from their perspective. The text does, however, clearly state that the Holy Spirit gave the disciples speech in other tongues. Further, verse 11 states that they were hearing in their own languages, not dialects. The speech was imparted in other languages. It is plausible that the ability was given to speak in particular dialects of particular languages, but that is not clarified, and it still doesn't support the idea that the miracle was on the hearers' side.

down to the very place where they were born which you earlier claimed was eisegesis but that was spoken in ignorance of the Greek wording used in the passage.
I did not claim that. I said that "accents" was eisegesis, and I stand by it.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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That verse isn't nor is unknown tongues ever said to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Paul was talking about when someone is speaking in a foreign language when no one else understands that particular human language.
I didn't say "unknown".

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (NASB)
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

You call tongues "gibberish". I call your contrabiblical opinion "gibberish".
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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I didn't say "unknown".

You call tongues "gibberish". I call your contrabiblical opinion "gibberish".
Here is my problem with all this.
How can I test the speaking of tongues, which is happening today and verify its authenticity?
Answer: I cannot.
If there is a way then please show me.
Otherwise it is not to be trusted just like the many miracles of the Roman and Orthodox Catholic Church.

But in the similar way let us not attack it.
For I claim to have power in the Spirit to now refrain from certain sins. But who of you can verify this?

Let us trust in the Word and in the Spirit.
Let us not trust in what man claims to do or see in the Spirit.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

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Feb 8, 2019
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I didn't say "unknown".

You call tongues "gibberish". I call your contrabiblical opinion "gibberish".
Perhaps we should try to build each other up in the things that can be tested, and not tear each other down in the things which cannot be tested.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Yep!

Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Babel:
H894
בָּבֶל
bâbel
baw-bel'
From H1101; confusion; Babel (that is, Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire: - Babel, Babylon.
Total KJV occurrences: 262

To speak Babel is to speak confusion. Babel and Babylon is the same exact word.
wrong exegesis of Gen 11 God "Confound" the languages means he Change the existing known language of the person to one that was not know. God used other real languages that were not known to that person(s) at that time which caused confusion God did not create an incoherent babble as some of you suggest about the Gift of Tongues, FYI there is nothing God does that is " incoherent " God created more languages that man did not understand at that time. The end result they were scattered. You can't use Gen 11 to attack 1cor 12 through 14 they are not even contextually the same. the term Babble is not even mentioned in1cor chapter 12 through 14.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
Here is my problem with all this.
How can I test the speaking of tongues, which is happening today and verify its authenticity?
Answer: I cannot.
If there is a way then please show me.
Otherwise it is not to be trusted just like the many miracles of the Roman and Orthodox Catholic Church.

But in the similar way let us not attack it.
For I claim to have power in the Spirit to now refrain from certain sins. But who of you can verify this?

Let us trust in the Word and in the Spirit.
Let us not trust in what man claims to do or see in the Spirit.
I will give real life examples that might help answer that.

I have been in many meetings, in a church in prison in the '80s when I was first saved made up of just inmates with deacons and elders as leadership and where there was an agreement that all these gifts were still in operation. And I have been in many other meetings of assembled believers who believe in these gifts through out the past 40 years since that time. Here is a common example of how it usually is manifested.


During a time of worship, a song ends and people just continue to worship the Lord in their own way, a quietness settles over the meeting and it is as if you can tell someone is about to speak. A person will give an utterance in tongues. It will not be a known language (I guess it could be but probably isn't) and it will last about 10 to 15 seconds usually. Then everyone waits for the interpretation.

I have many times asked the Lord if he wanted me to interpret and I have received an interpretation. The way that worked was A faith and a confidence rose up in my heart and I knew that I could step out in faith and give the interpretation it just came to me, like an exhortation to honor the elderly in the church and to pray for them. And as I was about to do so, someone else gave the interpretation and it was almost EXACTLY what I was going to give. Not word for word but thought for thought and some of it would be word for word. The interpretations are always of a directive that inspires faith about something specific to that church body, In this case the leadership might have been discussing and planning to launch a nursing home ministry but it had not been completely planned out yet or announced and only a few of them knew about it. The manifestation of the tongues and interpretation might be just what they needed to know that the Holy Spirit was encouraging them to continue down the path of praying and planning on that specific outreach.

But what would always be so amazing to me is that it gave me faith that I did have the interpretation when someone else spoke the exact thing I was going to say. That is a faith building exercise and it is how one learns to operate in these gifts. The next time I might give the interpretation and someone would come to me afterwards and say that they had that same interpretation and was waiting to see if anyone else was going to speak. These kinds of experiences let us know that we are not FAKING this stuff. It is way too specific and happens consistently.

And the utterances such as not neglecting the elderly (and of course it would be more verbose) these are always truths from the bible that we can agree with, never contradictions and we reject them if they were, but this rarely happens in a church that has learned through time how to do things decent and in order. Wacky things only happen in churches that are not teaching correctly and not mature, like the Corinthians. I believe Paul's instructions were probably applied and they learned to operate in the gifts in order and to the edification of all. And I believe when these chapters are taught (1 Cor 12-14) they produce the kind of wonderful manifestations of the gifts as I have experienced through these many years.

Now I am not trying to use my experiences to establish doctrine. This post is in answer to the question about testing the speaking of tongues in the assembly and the interpretation. I have used real life scenarios to answer what that looks like.

And in conclusion I will address what happens when the utterance is tested and found false.

I don't have many of these because I have been fortunate to attend very healthy and mature assemblies through the years that know how to teach and operate in the gifts. One example that comes to mind was when a brother who meant well was giving an interpretation of an utterance of tongues about Michael the Archangel. I don't remember the exact interpretation but it was glorifying the attributes of Michael the Archangel and the leader stopped the brother and said very kindly, "I am going to have to stop you brother, I think you mean well but that is not the interpretation. I don't want to embarrass you and I want you to keep desiring the gift of interpretation but this is not the interpretation." And then he gave the correct interpretation, which happened to be once again the same thing I had gotten when I heard the tongue. Later we discussed it and we all agreed that he handled it very well and that brother who spoke from his own mind kept on learning and growing from this mistake and was not crushed over it.

Now it was obvious to me and the leader because the interpretation was bringing glory to an Archangel rather than Christ and the spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus Christ. Anytime an interpretation or a prophesy is bringing glory to a man or an angel your spirit will go RED ALERT for good cause.

Now to the skeptic or the uninitiated the potential for a false interpretation would make them feel that banning all utterances is safer for the church but Paul said not to forbid to speak in tongues just because they were doing it wrong in Corinth. He also said not to QUENCH the Spirit and not to despise prophesying. Allowing the Holy Spirit to manifest the gifts in the assembly includes having the Holy Spirit gifts of leadership to gently correct and guide the believers into the mature use of these gifts. This was Paul's approach and it should be ours.
 

Major

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Dec 12, 2020
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I thought that someone should be able to interpret what the person is saying when they are speaking in tongues?

I went to a church where the pastor’s wife spoke in tongues but I don’t think anyone could interpret and she never acted as if she knew what she was saying. I also noticed that her husband was the church (he was the pastor, teacher and worship leader..it was a small church) so I always wondered if this was a way for her to be noticed, honestly.
Yes. The Scriptures tell us that tongues MUST be interpreted.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Yes. The Scriptures tell us that tongues MUST be interpreted.
it actually says if there is none given that person is to speak quietly to themselves. It does not say IF there is not interpretation must be. Remember those who speak are to pray that they Interpret 1cor 14 says.
 

Major

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Dec 12, 2020
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I have also seen many false tongues but I have experienced real tongues before as well. I had a friend who had a studder problem we and a small group of people id a skype bible study he wanted to pray over the study and was studdering but sudden;y he began speaking in hebrew with no studder at all I experienced a flow of power and fire surging into my being when he did this.
Even if I had not experienced it firsthand I never discount any of the gifts I have never seen or experienced a miracle of any kind but I fully believe in them in healing in the flow of the spirit raising a dead person anything God says is possible even walking on water not because I have done it or seen it but because of what I know of him

Anyone can say all things are possible with God but do we really believe that?

 

Major

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it actually says if there is none given that person is to speak quietly to themselves. It does not say IF there is not interpretation must be. Remember those who speak are to pray that they Interpret 1cor 14 says.
1 Corinthians 14:27............

New International Version
"If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

New Living Translation
No more than two or three should speak in tongues. They must speak one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say.

New American Standard Bible
If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;

Berean Study Bible
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
1 Corinthians 14:27............

New International Version
"If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

New Living Translation
No more than two or three should speak in tongues. They must speak one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say.

New American Standard Bible
If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;

Berean Study Bible
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.
New International Version
If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

New Living Translation
But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately.

English Standard Version
But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

Berean Study Bible
But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.

Berean Literal Bible
But if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

New American Standard Bible
but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

New King James Version
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

King James Bible
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Christian Standard Bible
But if there is no interpreter, that person is to keep silent in the church and speak to himself and God.

Contemporary English Version
If no one can explain, you must keep silent in church and speak only to yourself and to God.

Good News Translation
But if no one is there who can explain, then the one who speaks in strange tongues must be quiet and speak only to himself and to God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But if there is no interpreter, that person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

International Standard Version
If an interpreter is not present, the speaker should remain silent in the church and speak to himself and God.

NET Bible
But if there is no interpreter, he should be silent in the church. Let him speak to himself and to God.

New Heart English Bible
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church, and let him speak to himself, and to God.

A Faithful Version
But if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in the church, and let him speak within himself and to God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And if there is no translator, let him who speaks in a language be silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But if an interpreter isn't present, those people should remain silent in church. They should only speak to themselves and to God.

New American Standard 1977
but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

King James 2000 Bible
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

American King James Version
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

American Standard Version
but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God.

Darby Bible Translation
but if there be no interpreter, let him be silent in [the] assembly, and let him speak to himself and to God.

English Revised Version
but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Webster's Bible Translation
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Weymouth New Testament
or if there is no interpreter, let the man with the gift be silent in the Church, speaking to himself and to God.

World English Bible
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Young's Literal Translation
and if there may be no interpreter, let him be silent in an assembly, and to himself let him speak, and to God.

SPEAKING in tongues to oneself and to God necessitates Speaking in Tongues and requires NO interpreter.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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1 Corinthians 14:27............

New International Version
"If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

finish the whole context :

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.New Living Translation



No more than two or three should speak in tongues. They must speak one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say.

New American Standard Bible
If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;

Berean Study Bible
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.

you can't cut off the full context at 27 when 28 continues the lesson
 
S

Scribe

Guest
For those who are looking for a good presentation and rebuttal to John MacArthur's Strange Fire erroneous exegesis and false accusations, Michael Brown's Authentic Fire brings a balance to the discussion and even many Baptists and other nonpentecostals have said they believe Dr. Brown has done a better job on hermeneutics and also explaining how we should get along together while differing on our interpretations. If it were a debate Dr. Brown clearly won and the intellectually honest will agree that Authentic Fire is much more educational and informative in grasping the authorial intent of the scriptures on the subject.

https://www.amazon.com/Authentic-Fi.../ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
 
S

Scribe

Guest
For those who are looking for a good presentation and rebuttal to John MacArthur's Strange Fire erroneous exegesis and false accusations, Michael Brown's Authentic Fire brings a balance to the discussion and even many Baptists and other nonpentecostals have said they believe Dr. Brown has done a better job on hermeneutics and also explaining how we should get along together while differing on our interpretations. If it were a debate Dr. Brown clearly won and the intellectually honest will agree that Authentic Fire is much more educational and informative in grasping the authorial intent of the scriptures on the subject.

https://www.amazon.com/Authentic-Fi.../ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,783
1,221
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Yes, these are examples of the kinds of tongues spoken in some churches and it's obviously fake and made up. The Holy Spirit is not inspiring this and they are only speaking Babel. Tongues is often (not always) used to brag or make one's self look as if they are special and blessed by the Holy Spirit but it's all farce.