TONGUES TODAY

[CS1]

I'm seeing "your sons and daughters shall prophesy"; not "your sons and daughters shall prophesy and speak in tongues". The two are not mutually inclusive. One can prophesy without doing so via tongues.

If you understood the gifts of the Holy Spirit you would not say that. If you read the bible and the words of Jesus and the Apostles you would not say that.

How many people have you and your linguist led to the Lord? How many homeless, and addicted have you prayed for and seen set free in one day? I will wait.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

As I've stated, I'm not doubting or questioning the 'tongues experience'; as mentioned, glossolalia as the spiritual tool that it is, can be very powerful and, for many people, the experience is profound.

What you will find, IF you will be honest with yourself is that This unbiblical teaching promises health and wealth to those who receive Christ. However, it is conditional on giving financially to support a church or ministry. It distorts the biblical teaching of "giving" into a "give to get" scheme, in which a person supposedly invests "seed money" with God who then gives materially to the giver.

Precious friends, Appreciate Very Much such "gifted" writers as ya'll.
Dreaming hopefully someday, I will be/do "as well" as ya'll do!

I guess my "gift" is more one of "compiling related Scriptures," and
adding Challenging questions, hopefully "planting seeds" for
thoughtful and Diligent Bible "students." {my own life-long occupation?}

Concerning profound experiences, did I "luck out" when I {was a baby} only had two? Once I was invited to a christian gathering where they all "stood up and all did their glossolalia" at the same time. Never went back.

The other was at home, trying to listen/learn from TV. Still a
babe, the "tongues" teacher announced I "could get the gift"
simply by placing my hand on the TV, and "waiting on God."
Of course, nothing happened - God Protected "HIS young one"
from such foolishness?

I suppose I had More experiences with the Confusion of water baptism, so I guess God has me doing Most of my compiling of HIS Word Of Truth on that topic. Amen?

Again, Appreciate ya'll, and thanks for listening. God Bless ya'll Richly!!

Bum - Couldn't copy and paste/present a Double Trophy to you Both!

 

[SophieT]

It doesn't bother me at all - just merrily pointing out the mechanics, so to speak, of the modern phenomenon. The bottom line is very simple - there just isn't anything you're producing that cannot be explained in light of relatively simple linguistics.

If tongues-speech had a morphology, a grammar (even a rudimentary one), if it was relatively uniform amongst its speakers (as opposed to no two people ever having the same tongues-speech.....ever), I might be a bit more apt to think it was something divine in nature; but the modern phenomenon contains none of the above - it's just non-cognitive non-language utterance. The only thing making it 'real' to its speakers is their belief/faith.

As I've stated, I'm not doubting or questioning the 'tongues experience'; as mentioned, glossolalia as the spiritual tool that it is, can be very powerful and, for many people, the experience is profound. As one commenter put it, “Speaking in tongues distracts the ego/analytical/conscious mind while leaving the subconscious (the heart) wide open to import the divine." Both the spiritual and physical benefits of using this tool are also well documented. Again though, it is important to note that this same statement can be made for virtually any other culture that practices glossolalia.

Religious and cultural differences aside, the glossolalia produced by a Shaman, a vodoun priestess, and a Christian tongues-speaker are in no way different from each other. They’re all producing their glossolalia in the exact same way; they just have different explanations and beliefs as to why they’re doing it, and where it comes from.

it obviously bothers you or you would not try to correct everyone and try to tell them they are having an emotional experience with no God

unlike mr major, who does actualy believe in God, you do not, so the fuss you always make states it bothers you

Religious and cultural differences aside, the glossolalia produced by a Shaman, a vodoun priestess, and a Christian tongues-speaker are in no way different from each other. They’re all producing their glossolalia in the exact same way; they just have different explanations and beliefs as to why they’re doing it, and where it comes from

Your little ditty about shamans, voodoo priests etc only point to the reality of the devil and his desire to be god

those particular demonic tongues come from the same place your resistance to the Holy Spirit tongues comes from. the devil

 

[Major]

Precious friends, Appreciate Very Much such "gifted" writers as ya'll.
Dreaming hopefully someday, I will be/do "as well" as ya'll do!

I guess my "gift" is more one of "compiling related Scriptures," and
adding Challenging questions, hopefully "planting seeds" for
thoughtful and Diligent Bible "students." {my own life-long occupation?}

Concerning profound experiences, did I "luck out" when I was a baby}
only had two? Once I was invited to a christian gathering where
they all "stood up and all did their glossolalia" at the same time.
Never went back. The other was at home, trying to listen/learn from
TV. Still a babe, the "tongues" teacher announced I "could get the gift"
simply by placing my hand on the TV, and "waiting on God." Of course,
nothing happened - God Protected "HIS young one" from such foolishness?

I suppose I had More experiences with the Confusion of water baptism,
so I guess God has me doing Most of my compiling of HIS Word Of Truth
on that topic. Amen?

Again, Appreciate ya'll, and thanks for listening. God Bless ya'll Richly!!

Bum - Couldn't copy and paste/present a Double Trophy to you Both!

LOL......Really funny and May I say to you with total honesty....I have been there and done exactly that!

May the lord continue to richly bless you my friend.

 

[SophieT]

I agree.

The city of Corinth, 2000 years ago was a mecca of PAGAN people who brought their various religions with them When some of them converted to the Christian they kept some of their PAGAN religious practices and one of them was speaking in "tongues."

The letter to the Corinthian church was a "Corrective" due to what was going on there in the church.

Many sincere Christians, who love the Lord, believe that speaking in tongues is a valid gift from God today. They do so because they have been taught that tongues is a valid gift today, which is the dominate theme of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

Tongues were a sign gift to the unbelieving Jews as Paul states in 1 Corinthians 14:22............
“Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.”

However.....no amount of real history or Bible truth will be accepted by those who WANT to speak in tongues.

The BIBLE SAYS that Paul stated that “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom” thus the Lord sent the Jews the sign gifts. Further, less than forty years after Christ returned to heaven, the sign gifts ceased. The reason was that after Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, Israel ceased from being a nation, the Jews were dispersed throughout the Roman Empire.

The offer of the Kingdom, they could have had if they had believed was withdrawn by God and offered to the Gentile.....US!

If we actually READ the Bible we can clearly see that during Jesus’ ministry and after His resurrection, it was through His Apostles that the Lord was offering Israel the Kingdom promised in the Old Testament. However, because the Jews rejected Jesus their Messiah the offer of the kingdom was withdrawn about the middle of the First Century and subsequently the Kingdom was postponed. With Israel destroyed and God’s offer withdrawn, there was no longer any purpose for the sign gifts that were directed at unbelieving Jews.
The sign gifts were given to authenticate that Jesus was Israel’s promised Messiah through the APOSTLES who were the ELEVEN in Mark 16:14.

interesting that you have more in common with an unbeliever about what scripture states, than you do with Christians

the US is a mecca for pagans and demonic religions. your friend there, does practice some religion but will not state what it is

 

[Major]

Perhaps you would be so kind as to record yourself speaking in tongues for about a minute or so and post it here for analysis. I'll wait as well.

Now THAT is both FUNNY and very IRONIC!

I only wish that I had thought of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder is all those places those big red "X's" on replys made by others with step up and do as you asked......ya think?

 

[Major]

I'm seeing "your sons and daughters shall prophesy"; not "your sons and daughters shall prophesy and speak in tongues". The two are not mutually inclusive. One can prophesy without doing so via tongues.

And I would also say that the New Test. word for "prophesy" is Literally......."TEACH"!

 

[CS1]

And I would also say that the New Test. word for "prophesy" is Literally......."TEACH"!

it is to proclaim, and speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which is prophesying. in context to 1cor chapter 12 through 14.

it doesn't matter what you or I would "say" it is what the bible clearly states.

 

[SophieT]

I do not agree. I would say that the majority do not partake and bate that because they know when confronted with WAT THE BIBLE says they stand convicted and are then called to repent.

Are you un-aware that the dominate theme of tongues speakers is to promote what is termed the "health and wealth gospel." or as many say......"he Prosperity Gospel"! Please do not take my word on this. YOU do the work. YOU do the study.

What you will find, IF you will be honest with yourself is that This unbiblical teaching promises health and wealth to those who receive Christ. However, it is conditional on giving financially to support a church or ministry. It distorts the biblical teaching of "giving" into a "give to get" scheme, in which a person supposedly invests "seed money" with God who then gives materially to the giver. This false gospel has made multi-millionaires of many Charismatic and Pentecostal preachers. False teaching is used by most radio and TV "ministers" who cunningly deceive their audiences with their "get rich" or "healing" schemes and EVERY ONE OF THEM I KNOW OF SPEAKS IN TONGUES as the basis of their theology.

again, you select a group of people that add to scripture...unlike you who subtracts from scripture

you shame yourself and advertise your utter lack of truth when you state that the theme of tongues is to promote wof or health and wealth or blab it and grab it. we are all familiar with those false claims and they are still false when you make them despite your pride in your southern baptist convention friends

YOU distort the Bible when you say anyone who speaks in tongues is wanting money or prosperity

you say shameful things and falsely believe you do God a favor. you embarrass yourself with your lack of actual knowledge

there are those who falsely preach the wof message and there are those like yourself, you falsely preach a dead church and a dry spirit

 

[Major]

Yes, it's a phenomenon found across the globe and encompasses many different cultures and belief systems. The "mechanics", if you will, of its production do not differ markedly from culture to culture - it's all essentially produced the same way and typically draws on the speaker's native language. I neglected to mention that another version exists today among some New Age practitioners - it's called Light Language.

Yes, it's a phenomenon found across the globe and encompasses many different cultures and belief systems. The "mechanics", if you will, of its production do not differ markedly from culture to culture - it's all essentially produced the same way and typically draws on the speaker's native language. I neglected to mention that another version exists today among some New Age practitioners - it's called Light Language.

Agreed. I am aware of that also.

The point is......"It is faked because it is easy to fake".

Those who just have to experience the Sign Gifts given to the Apostles in Mark 16:14-20 can not heal the sick, or raise the dead, or survive rattlesnake bites or drink poisonings, BUT they CAN FAKE speaking in tongues.

It is just really that simple....IHO!

 

[SophieT]

And I would also say that the New Test. word for "prophesy" is Literally......."TEACH"!

except for the obvious and overlooked (again by you because it disagrees with your false theology) that teacher is already listed in the spiritual gifts. prophecy in either testament does not mean 'teaching'

19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good, 22 abstain from every form of evil I Thess. 5 : 19-22

Spiritual Gifts in Paul’s Letters

Romans 12:6–8
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

1 Corinthians 12:7–10
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues

1 Corinthians 12:28
28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers

 

[Absolutely]

This does not address the question aske of where SPECIFICALLY have I posted something that was not Biblical????

The dead are raised by the power and blood of Jesus and you got a doctrinal objection.

Lord help us if it has come to this.

 

[Absolutely]

Having said that may I ask you to post from the Bible Scriptures where a WOMAN is recorded speaking in "Tongues".

it is too bad men who are so bias have no full understanding that where the word of God says "men" also refers to women.
The prophet Joel said Chapter



“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

Peter reinforced this by saying in Acts chapter 2

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.


Now, 1cor chapters 12 through 14 are also to women yet these men here can't see that. Now in chapter 11 where the unit chapters start on this Paul says here


2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.


Paul goes on to say :



11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.

Both are of God and the Spirit of God can come upon each of them. And when the Spirit does they can Prophesy and speak in tongues. Yet they are to be silent until that happens and the elders are to judge what was said in light of the word of God and prayer.

You use the word of God to control women not develop them in the gifts God has given to both men and women.

Hello?????
Acts 10
Many gentiles are baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.


44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

 

[Absolutely]

Now THAT is both FUNNY and very IRONIC!

I only wish that I had thought of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder is all those places those big red "X's" on replys made by others with step up and do as you asked......ya think?

Jesus could do no miracles in his hometown because of unbelief.

Wet log believers stop the power of God.

What you and your new friend are doing is a repeat of Jesus encounter after his Holy Spirit baptism.

Satan basically said " If you are the real deal do a miracle right now in front of me "

Those type of requests are a slap in the face of God.

Even denying his power to operate through the believer is...unfortunately... A sin against the power of God.

 

[awelight]

I did not know linguists were the new authoritative Theologians of Christianity? So a "linguist fully understands the Pneumatika, charismata and Diakonia, The Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of Christ to the church?

I did not know a secular person was to even be taken seriously about biblical truths?

I'm sure there are those like evolutionist, psychologist, and now the new Linguist who is speaking for the empowering of the Holy Spirit instead of the word of God. Human reasoning is the new biblical authority.

Sorry, Lord, prophets, apostles, evangelists, and Pastors, and teachers who are saved and filled with the Spirit You should have become a "linguist".

The above attack and falsehood I notice not one verse to refute 1cor chapter 12 through 14. Not one verse given to dismiss the gifts of Christ found in Eph chapter 4. Nothing to address Mark 16 or Matthew 28 or Luke 24.

"Evenki Shaman in Siberia, a vodoun priestess in Togo and a Christian tongues-speaker in Alabama are producing are in no way different from each other. They’re all producing their glossolalia in the exact same way; they just have different explanations and beliefs as to why they’re doing it and where it comes from."


Sounds like you are seeking devil worship to disprove the gifts of the Holy Spirit and then try to make all of them fit with those who are pentacostel. That is very much close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.


Shaman in Siberia or a Vodoun priestess in Togo and a Christian in Alabama? You do not know what you are talking about.

Try reading the Bible in the language you do understand instead of prompting up false doctors to attack the word of God.


You try to use worldly secular humanism to speak of spiritual things and have the audacity to say a Christian in Alabama is of the devil?

You are doing the same thing. Try proving the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today by the word of God. You can't You have to look outside the word of God to find support for your bias LOL.

A very good humanistic argument to try to defeat another humanistic argument. A true student of Scripture has Biblical arguments to defend against secular facts. However in this case, the argument brought forward by a linguist are valid concerns.

If one believes in utterances that will not stand the test of linguistics, they are compelled to disqualify the facts. Indeed they have too. If they do not, then their belief system will collapse around their ears. God's Truth, clearly understood, does not contradict well known facts but rather originates and enforces those facts. To believe otherwise is to enter the realm of mysticism.

The Bible is clear on the facts of languages:

Gen 10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, in their nations.

This was clearly a language held in common by a group of people. It differentiated them from others just as German, French, Spanish or English differentiates us today.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

These verses of Scripture, are the clearest verses in Scripture, as to the understanding of Biblical languages.

The Galileans (v.7), were speaking a new language that they had not previously known, by the gift of the Spirit (v.4). These new languages were clearly recognized by the listeners (v.6&8). The miracle here... is not the nature or linguistics of the languages but rather, the source of these languages. The Holy Spirit. Non of the Galileans had any previous formal training in these languages.

1Co_12:10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits: to another various kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:

Here also, the various tongues and the ability to interpret various tongues were both gifts given to aid the early ministry. These tongues were still normal linguistic languages not non-linguistic gibberish. Nor was it some higher than thou heavenly language. This brings us to the two areas of Scripture that have been abused:

1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

This portion of Scripture, is used to set-up the proof text for the heavenly languages but by doing so, the ones that have this interpretation ignore the fact that Paul was using a Rhetorical form of argument. He was laying out the highest forms of each subject and contrasting them to "Love". In these two verses he used "Languages", "Prophecy" and "Faith". All three, raised to their highest level and then contrasted to love. Each time, LOVE was given the higher value.

Paul was not saying:

That he could speak in all languages of men, indeed there is no Scripture recording Paul as speaking in another language. He elevated his argument to the language of Angels but we were not to understand that Paul could speak in this language. That proof is in the next portion of the argument. Additionally, we do not know if Angels even speak. After all they are non-corporal creatures. They have no mouth as we know it. The Bible only records Angels as speaking when they were in a human form and then they used the language of the one they were speaking too.

That he knew ALL mysteries and had ALL knowledge. He certainly did not!!! Only the Father in heaven knows ALL mysteries and knowledge. Even Jesus Christ did not know everything in His humanity.

That he had FAITH worthy to move mountains. He certainly did not!!! Nor were there any Biblical examples of any man moving a mountain out of it's place.

These examples of Paul, were to make us understand how important LOVE is, not to build some fictitious Theology upon those subjects. Finally:

Verses of Scripture which make reference to "praying in the Spirit", simply mean praying with the guidance of the Holy Spirit which dwells in all believers. Such as in Romans 8:26, which tells us that we often do not know what to pray for. The Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf because He knows what the will of the Father is for each one of us. This intercession is not audible to one praying nor is it generated by the one praying. It is the 3rd. Person of the God-Head having a conversation with the 1st. Person of the God-Head.

 

[Absolutely]

And I would also say that the New Test. word for "prophesy" is Literally......."TEACH"!

The cessationists hold up some false example of a charismatic leader who has failed in some way or is percieved to fake the gifts.

Ok ...2 things.
1) if that is the standard ( failure of another ).... Then all salvation is fake and false because THOUSANDS have departed the faith through sin or something else
So under your baby/bathwater template...nobody is saved.

2) did you know experience PRECEDES knowledge as much as viza viz?

IOW if God speaks to me or appears to me the word WILL COMFIRM IT.
Your mountain is insurmountable.

If you or I have a supernatural experience AND THE WORD COMFIRMS IT.....IT IS GOD 100%

So you have it backwards.

I was moved on by God. Tongues came forth.
No mental or fabricated anything.

Then you guys go with me to the ball game and we sit in right field. You call over the right fielder and inform him..."hey buddy, baseball ceased 50 years ago"

SMH

 

[CS1]

A very good humanistic argument to try to defeat another humanistic argument. A true student of Scripture has Biblical arguments to defend against secular facts. However in this case, the argument brought forward by a linguist are valid concerns.

If one believes in utterances that will not stand the test of linguistics, they are compelled to disqualify the facts. Indeed they have too. If they do not, then their belief system will collapse around their ears. God's Truth, clearly understood, does not contradict well known facts but rather originates and enforces those facts. To believe otherwise is to enter the realm of mysticism.

The Bible is clear on the facts of languages:

Gen 10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, in their nations.

This was clearly a language held in common by a group of people. It differentiated them from others just as German, French, Spanish or English differentiates us today.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

These verses of Scripture, are the clearest verses in Scripture, as to the understanding of Biblical languages.

The Galileans (v.7), were speaking a new language that they had not previously known, by the gift of the Spirit (v.4). These new languages were clearly recognized by the listeners (v.6&8). The miracle here... is not the nature or linguistics of the languages but rather, the source of these languages. The Holy Spirit. Non of the Galileans had any previous formal training in these languages.

1Co_12:10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits: to another various kind of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:

Here also, the various tongues and the ability to interpret various tongues were both gifts given to aid the early ministry. These tongues were still normal linguistic languages not non-linguistic gibberish. Nor was it some higher than thou heavenly language. This brings us to the two areas of Scripture that have been abused:

1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

This portion of Scripture, is used to set-up the proof text for the heavenly languages but by doing so, the ones that have this interpretation ignore the fact that Paul was using a Rhetorical form of argument. He was laying out the highest forms of each subject and contrasting them to "Love". In these two verses he used "Languages", "Prophecy" and "Faith". All three, raised to their highest level and then contrasted to love. Each time, LOVE was given the higher value.

Paul was not saying:

That he could speak in all languages of men, indeed there is no Scripture recording Paul as speaking in another language. He elevated his argument to the language of Angels but we were not to understand that Paul could speak in this language. That proof is in the next portion of the argument. Additionally, we do not know if Angels even speak. After all they are non-corporal creatures. They have no mouth as we know it. The Bible only records Angels as speaking when they were in a human form and then they used the language of the one they were speaking too.

That he knew ALL mysteries and had ALL knowledge. He certainly did not!!! Only the Father in heaven knows ALL mysteries and knowledge. Even Jesus Christ did not know everything in His humanity.

That he had FAITH worthy to move mountains. He certainly did not!!! Nor were there any Biblical examples of any man moving a mountain out of it's place.

These examples of Paul, were to make us understand how important LOVE is, not to build some fictitious Theology upon those subjects. Finally:

Verses of Scripture which make reference to "praying in the Spirit", simply mean praying with the guidance of the Holy Spirit which dwells in all believers. Such as in Romans 8:26, which tells us that we often do not know what to pray for. The Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf because He knows what the will of the Father is for each one of us. This intercession is not audible to one praying nor is it generated by the one praying. It is the 3rd. Person of the God-Head having a conversation with the 1st. Person of the God-Head.

No, it is not valid. That is your opinion but it is not a Biblical one. The linguist doesn't validate the word of God no more than an atheist validates the non-existence of God. Yes the bible has the context of what is known as languages and the word Tongues Biblically in Hebrew and Greek has to be in context to the text, passage, sentence, paragraph, chapter, Book, and whole bible both Old and New Testament.

The word tongue means Biblically 1. the organ in your mouth 2. a language 3. or the language of a specific people i.e. Their Tongue. You are using Genesis 10:20 which speaks about the language of that person's ethnicity NOT of the Holy Spirt.

language is to an identity of a people as their native Tongue. I see in your scriptural reference you failed to speak on the word "Unknown". glōssa from 1cor 12:2

which is speaking of a language that was not known to the person speaking it.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

No man understands HIM the one speaking in the unknown tongue. I know this is hard for the carnal mind to comprehend as the word of God says it is. But that is that person's issue, not the Holy Spirits Gift.

The linguist did not have the ability to explain what God sid through Paul by the Holy Spirit

"for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

NO man understands him. Now I looked up that word NO in the greek in context to No man Understanding.
it doesn't say there is an exception for:

• linguist
• cessationists
• a scientific theory or opinion
• the misuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit by those who pervert them for money
• and finally, those who have been hurt by people who have misused them

None of those reasons or people change what is the gifts of the Holy Spirit being for today. Not one. You cherry-pick a verse where and there the full context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is in the three chapters of 1cor 12 to 14 And Eph chapter 4 and mark 16 and Acts chapter one and two, and 6-7, 10, 11, 19

 

[Major]

Thanks for the information. I did follow your link and may I say to you that coming from the Charismatic Pentecostal denomination many years ago, and having attented classes on how to speak in tongues....the action is indeed GIBBERISH and faked to cause one to have an emotional experience.

You are welcome and may I say to you that .......that is exactly my position!

I also was taken to "Tongues classes" and taught how to speak in tongues and even as a teen ager, I thought that ws very strange.

I was told that it was a GIFT and here I was taking a class on how to do it??????????

 

[Major]

A very good humanistic argument to try to defeat another humanistic argument. A true student of Scripture has Biblical arguments to defend against secular facts. However in this case, the argument brought forward by a linguist are valid concerns.

If one believes in utterances that will not stand the test of linguistics, they are compelled to disqualify the facts. Indeed they have too. If they do not, then their belief system will collapse around their ears. God's Truth, clearly understood, does not contradict well known facts but rather originates and enforces those facts. To believe otherwise is to enter the realm of mysticism.

The Bible is clear on the facts of languages:

Gen 10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, in their nations.

This was clearly a language held in common by a group of people. It differentiated them from others just as German, French, Spanish or English differentiates us today.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

These verses of Scripture, are the clearest verses in Scripture, as to the understanding of Biblical languages.

The Galileans (v.7), were speaking a new language that they had not previously known, by the gift of the Spirit (v.4). These new languages were clearly recognized by the listeners (v.6&8). The miracle here... is not the nature or linguistics of the languages but rather, the source of these languages. The Holy Spirit. Non of the Galileans had any previous formal training in these languages.

1Co_12:10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits: to another various kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:

Here also, the various tongues and the ability to interpret various tongues were both gifts given to aid the early ministry. These tongues were still normal linguistic languages not non-linguistic gibberish. Nor was it some higher than thou heavenly language. This brings us to the two areas of Scripture that have been abused:

1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

This portion of Scripture, is used to set-up the proof text for the heavenly languages but by doing so, the ones that have this interpretation ignore the fact that Paul was using a Rhetorical form of argument. He was laying out the highest forms of each subject and contrasting them to "Love". In these two verses he used "Languages", "Prophecy" and "Faith". All three, raised to their highest level and then contrasted to love. Each time, LOVE was given the higher value.

Paul was not saying:

That he could speak in all languages of men, indeed there is no Scripture recording Paul as speaking in another language. He elevated his argument to the language of Angels but we were not to understand that Paul could speak in this language. That proof is in the next portion of the argument. Additionally, we do not know if Angels even speak. After all they are non-corporal creatures. They have no mouth as we know it. The Bible only records Angels as speaking when they were in a human form and then they used the language of the one they were speaking too.

That he knew ALL mysteries and had ALL knowledge. He certainly did not!!! Only the Father in heaven knows ALL mysteries and knowledge. Even Jesus Christ did not know everything in His humanity.

That he had FAITH worthy to move mountains. He certainly did not!!! Nor were there any Biblical examples of any man moving a mountain out of it's place.

These examples of Paul, were to make us understand how important LOVE is, not to build some fictitious Theology upon those subjects. Finally:

Verses of Scripture which make reference to "praying in the Spirit", simply mean praying with the guidance of the Holy Spirit which dwells in all believers. Such as in Romans 8:26, which tells us that we often do not know what to pray for. The Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf because He knows what the will of the Father is for each one of us. This intercession is not audible to one praying nor is it generated by the one praying. It is the 3rd. Person of the God-Head having a conversation with the 1st. Person of the God-Head.

I hear you. I understand your position. I agree with you 100%.

However.....the people on this thread will not accept your or my BIBLE scriptures and exegesis. They will reject what we say and show because they are going to do what they want to do no matter what God said.

Thank you for your imput!

 

[Major]

Precious friends, Appreciate Very Much such "gifted" writers as ya'll.
Dreaming hopefully someday, I will be/do "as well" as ya'll do!

I guess my "gift" is more one of "compiling related Scriptures," and
adding Challenging questions, hopefully "planting seeds" for
thoughtful and Diligent Bible "students." {my own life-long occupation?}

Concerning profound experiences, did I "luck out" when I {was a baby} only had two? Once I was invited to a christian gathering where they all "stood up and all did their glossolalia" at the same time. Never went back.

The other was at home, trying to listen/learn from TV. Still a
babe, the "tongues" teacher announced I "could get the gift"
simply by placing my hand on the TV, and "waiting on God."
Of course, nothing happened - God Protected "HIS young one"
from such foolishness?

I suppose I had More experiences with the Confusion of water baptism, so I guess God has me doing Most of my compiling of HIS Word Of Truth on that topic. Amen?

Again, Appreciate ya'll, and thanks for listening. God Bless ya'll Richly!!

Bum - Couldn't copy and paste/present a Double Trophy to you Both!

Now .....Thank you for the compliment of...."Gifted writers".

However that really is not what I am. All I do these days as an old man is to post what the BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS.

In todays church, what I have seen over the years is people who say that "THIS' or "THAT" or "SOME ONE TOLD ME" and when I try to find what THIS or THAT is in the Bible......it is simply NOT THERE.

We have created a generation of people who do not know what the Bible says.....and have taken the word of FALSE TEACHERS and PASTORS without ever reading and confirming from the Bible what they are being told.

As a result, we now have a generation of people who believe that making "gibberish sounds' that make no sense in any language is Biblical and acceptable.

That same generation believes that God owes us something and if we give money to a certain man, or a Church, God then has to honor that "Fleece" offering.

That same generation also belives that there are MEN who can blow the Holy Spirit onto men and tell God to heal the sick and He will.

It is a real shame and if it was not so sad.......I would laugh but the author of the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ once said in
Matthew 7:21-24............
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."