Tongues

brmicke · Aug 18, 2013

Come on challenge me on this - You cannot prove your point and I know it from almost 2 decades of experience. The question becomes are you willing to admit you have been wrong?

If you don't want to challenge me directly then go to the extended studies at my linked posts on this topic and figure it out yourself by looking up the scriptural references.

Jullianna · Aug 18, 2013

annointedshepherd said:

No, I do not believe that every believer can speak in tongues. For me, 1 Cor 14:5 and 1 Cor 12:30 sum it up. The Holy Spirit gifts us according to our purpose in the body of Christ, but tongues is only one of those gifts and it is noteworthy that it usually appears last in the list of gifts.

The fact that Paul addresses this topic several times in several ways in scripture tells me that it was as much of an issue among believers back then as it is now.

1 Corinthians 12

12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And yet I will show you the most excellent way.

------------------
1 Corinthians 14

14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening,encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Missachu · Aug 18, 2013

KohenMatt said:

That always confused me... I know that it's a trend in Eastern US but here in California its deemed as.....crazy.

I've always thought it was acceptable as a practice, I mean the Holy Spirit will protect you from harm, but I always wondered if it's okay to sleep in a den of lions in the name of Jesus? I'm conflicted.

On topic; I've always been afraid to speak in tongues. I've felt the Holy Spirit urging me to, but I'm always afraid that gibberish will come out instead and I'd be looked at as defiling the church with my falseness :c My stepgrandmother always tried and it was always gibberish. I saw her as an imposter all my life and I didn't want to do the same.

Missachu · Aug 18, 2013

NiceneCreed said:

This is the perfect way of explaining it! It's sort of like art. Everyone has the ability to draw, but not everyone has the talent to make perfect works of art. Some is taught, some is natural. You can learn to speak Hebrew and praise God but there are those who it comes natural.

Praus · Aug 18, 2013

annointedshepherd said:

What did Paul write?

1 Cor 14:18
ευχαριστω τω θεω μου παντων υμων μαλλον γλωσσαις λαλων
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
Je remercie Dieu de ce que je parle en langues inconnues plus que vous tous.
Ich danke meinem Gott, dass ich mehr in Sprachen rede als ihr alle.
Doy gracias a Dios que hablo en lenguas más que todos vosotros;

Make sure you have an interpreter, per Paul's advice.

1 Cor 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

Whatever you do, do make sure not to give the microphone to someone speaking in "tongues".

Uninterpreted "tongues" starts at 1:52, with drums accompanying. Note the children in the video. This isn't pentecostal, it the "new apostles", they're "prophets", as you might guess.

MorningStar Ministries | Rick Joyner

[video=youtube;_rwzbcMXpSQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rwzbcMXpSQ[/video]

Starcrash · Aug 18, 2013

Cino said:

I hate when people declare "facts" without citing. You are wrong in this case, and it has already been cited numerous times...

I Corinthian 14:27-28 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

This passage alone makes it clear that it is not "to be used at home in private" but rather aloud in church (unless you lack an interpreter). And there's no specific declaration against "posting tongues in public", so it would fall under the grey areas discussed with the example of eating food sacrificed to idols -- not universally wrong. So again, I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation for why "tongues" are not to be found on the internet for general scrutiny and education.

Now why would anyone have to depend on "what [you] believe"? Couldn't a question like this be posed of God and be given an answer? At the very least, a person could find some of the answers in the bible, so it astounds me that even this isn't always being done...

Praus · Aug 18, 2013

Starcrash said:

Bible study would interfere with their worldview, so they avoid it.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

Cino · Aug 18, 2013

Starcrash said:

Well there you go. You have contradicted yourself. You have quoted "let it be interpreted" so all can understand....but it NEVER is. I have never in my life had someone interpret someone else's speaking in tongues. I know Christians who claim to speak in tongues, and it IS gibberish. I have heard them at the home, I have heard them in Bible study circles. They themselves claim that they only speak in tongue between them and God when they are praying at home, and they do NOT do it in the church. Other denominations may do it publicly or in the church. You totally missed my point. First, the Bible says let it be "interpreted", which is never is. And secondly, my POINT was that you do NOT need speaking in tongues or anything else to be a true Christian. If someone feels they have the gift of speaking in tongues, that is to be between them and God. It was meant to be the language of the "angels". So, if they feel they have it, I am not condemning them. I did not condemn the people I personally know that claim they speak in tongues. What I am condemning, is that not ALL Christian need to speak in tongues to be SAVED. Jesus Christ and NOTHING MORE. Do all Christians have the gift of healing or prophecy? I'm sure the answer is no. So maybe someone should tell those who speak in tongues, that because they do not have the gift of healing or prophecy, they are SECOND CLASS Christians and are not truly baptized with the Holy Spirit. Would you say that? OF COURSE NOT. So, don't tell anyone else that they are second class Christians and have not received the Holy Spirit just because they do not speak in tongues. THAT IS MY POINT.

I knew a man who was a Christian. He was told that if he didn't speak in tongues or have the gift of miracles, that he was not a true believer of God. WELL, he prayed for a LONG time to receive the gift of tongues and/or the gift of miracles. He did not receive either. Sadly to say, after being brainwashed by these people, this poor man felt God had forsaken Him, and that he was not truly saved, and he committed suicide. Now is that the teaching of the Holy Spirit? The people who him that nonsense has blood on their hands. That was not from God. That is my point.

Cino · Aug 18, 2013

I mean the people who told him that nonsense has blood on their hands.

reject-tech · Aug 18, 2013

I don't know why you accuse me of "sophistry"
You should be more careful. Because what you don't know about my opinion, is that what some call "jibberish" is actually ancient hebrew, even when they "fake" it.

presidente · Aug 19, 2013

brmicke said:

Paul, in arguing for the importance of interpreting tongues spoken in church, says regarding the one speaking in tongues, 'no man understandeth him.' He compares it to being a 'barbarian' to someone. A barbarian was a foreigner. Etymologically, it likely came from characteritizing non-Greek speakers as saying 'bar bar bar bar.' The Greeks might have considered it babbling.

You probably wouldn't recognize speaking in tongues as a language if you encountered it.

Bisa jadi kamu tidak mengenali bahasa roh jika enkau menemukannya.

Would you consider that to be babble?

NiceneCreed · Aug 19, 2013

annointedshepherd said:

I will post 1 Corinthians chapter 12, as it deals specifically with the topic of spiritual gifts in general; although, I do not understand why so many people who are adverse to spiritual gifts are fixated on the gift of speaking in tongues (not referring to you necessarily, unless of course you take this position) . . . there are other spiritual gifts, you know.

12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. [SUP]2 [/SUP]You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. [SUP]5 [/SUP]There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. [SUP]6 [/SUP]There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP][a][/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
[h=3]Unity and Diversity in the Body[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For we were all baptized by[SUP][c][/SUP] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. [SUP]17 [/SUP]If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? [SUP]18 [/SUP]But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. [SUP]19 [/SUP]If they were all one part, where would the body be? [SUP]20 [/SUP]As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” [SUP]22 [/SUP]On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, [SUP]24 [/SUP]while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, [SUP]25 [/SUP]so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. [SUP]26 [/SUP]If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [SUP]30 [/SUP]Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[SUP][d][/SUP]? Do all interpret? [SUP]31 [/SUP]Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
[h=3]Love Is Indispensable[/h]And yet I will show you the most excellent way.

NiceneCreed · Aug 19, 2013

presidente said:

Just out of curiosity, what language is that? It is clear it is an earthly language, at least, it seems like it is the Indonesian or Indian language . . .

presidente · Aug 19, 2013

Cino said:

You have limited experience. I grew up hearing tongues and interpretation in church meetings as a regular thing. One church I went to discouraged people from praying out loud in tongues in the service. Tongues were expected to be interpreted. Several others just had a culture where that was the norm, though I don't remember it being addressed.

I have been to meetings where group speaking in tongues was encouraged, and that does bother me since there is an order to it in the scriptures. The Corinthians may have been doing it out of order, too, but that doesn't mean their gift wasn't genuine. Paul did correct them for being like children in their thinking.

I have a degree in Linguistics and I have studied five or six languages at the university level (depending on whether you count Anglo-Saxon) and I speak another language fluently. I've lived and worked in three countries and visited other countries. I've been exposed to many languages. I have heard people speaking in tongues that sounded to me like genuine languages. And When I lived overseas and could not tell if someone was speaking in tongues or praying in a regional language I was not familiar with. I didn't know until the interpretation came.

DivorcedM_35 · Aug 19, 2013

Starcrash said:

It's hard to know what you're talking about, because the bible uses the phrase "speaking in tongues" in two different ways. Speaking in tongues is demonstrated in Acts 2 with the disciples talking in such a way that everyone present heard their own language being spoken. This is the only place where it is spoken of, and there is no known case of this ever happening in real life.

The apostle Paul also talks about speaking in tongues, but clearly in a different context because the above use of the phrase obviously doesn't require "interpretation of tongues", but Paul's version of it does. He says that it is one of the "gifts of the spirit", things given to Christians upon conversion. But this is highly doubtful. For one thing, have you ever met someone endowed with such a gift? Pentecostals all claim to have it, but they clearly speak in glossolalia, or gibberish. The reason that we know this is because it's impossible to translate -- it's random and doesn't follow its own structure consistently, let alone a known language pattern.

Many people see speaking in tongues as a gift of the spirit, and the ability to speak a heavenly language or "language of the angels", but this would be easy to test if true -- we'd simply put several "interpreters" in a laboratory setting with the same recorded piece of dialogue and ask them to translate. It wouldn't be important what is said, as long as they all come to the same interpretation. As far as I know, this study has never been done because there aren't people brave enough to both claim to have this gift and have it tested. It's noteworthy that no internet site has ever claimed to have a method of deciphering, or an "english to heavenly dictionary".

To be honest I think this shows a lack of faith in a powerful gift. Gibberish? Surely not, the Spirit for me time and time again prompts that tongues from other believers is of Him, and a gift. The interpretation is (roughly translated) to be given when public tongues are spoken. On at least three occasions I have seen the interpretation given for this situation in large public gatherings, when the tongues were spoken out loud for the congregation. God Bless

TheMachine · Aug 19, 2013

This topic again....I will copy and paste my response as given at least 4 other times on this same topic in the 400 other threads on this same topic.....I have a question also but I will post it in another thread so as to stay on topic.

From other threads
Man this topic goes round and round and round and round again....... I figure if you believe in the gifts of the Spirit awesome!
If you don't awesome!

I was explained the gift of tongues like this and it made sense to me.

Of the four that the New Testament talks about, two are public, and two are private.

the two public ones:

- tongues as a sign to the unbeliever

1 Corinthians 13:22 'therefore tongues is a sign, not to those who believe but to the unbelievers'

this occurs in Acts 2.

Tongues as a sign to the unbeliever occurs when the holy spirit transcends our intellect empowering us to speak, preach, or teach in any language of this earth, of which we have not had any previous experience.
this only happens when the holy spirit wills.

- tongues for interpretation.

1 Corinthians 14:5 "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,c]" class="footnote">[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,d]" class="footnote">[d] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. "

This is one of the nine gifts of the spirit. That is where we are in a public assembly, and the spirit of God comes upon a person and they begin to speak in a heavenly language, and paul says THAT must be interpreted. <--- that is the tongues to which paul refers to in the end of corinthians 12.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the two private

-tongues for intercession.

Romans 8:26-28.
'and the holy spirit helps us in our distress, for we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray. but the holy spirit prays for us in groaning which cannot be expressed in words and the father who knows all hearts knows what the spirit is saying for the spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will

John Bevere goes on to explain that this type of tongues actually goes beyond tongues and into actual groaning.
he says that this type of tongue has been lost in the church. I quote him "i was out praying this morning and it hit me this morning, i was praying ; God had me interceding over a situation and i was praying over it, and it got to the point beyond tongues and i just had this urge.. and i had to begin to groan.. and listen, the power that is released when you begin to enter into that kind of intercession is just mind-boggling."

- Tongues for personal prayer, which result in personal edification.

1 corinthians 14:4 'he who speaks in a tongue edifies himself/herself.'

for that reason, paul says (verse 14)

'For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. '

Jude 20 But you, beloved build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

"when praying in tongue, we build ourselves up, we edify ourselves"
the word edify means 'edifus', which means to build a structure.
the word edify is derived from edifus' which means to build a massive magnificent building, so when you pray in tongues, your actually erecting a superstructure, a divine operation inside of you to begin to house the presence and power of God.

Once again if you believe it cool and if you don't cool.
Cool, Cool Cool Cool!

The Machine

Troy and Abed in the moooooorrrrrrning!........Troy and Abed

CHRISTENE · Aug 19, 2013

annointedshepherd said:

Tongues are a gift from God,

Acts 2:1-4
[SUP]1[/SUP] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[SUP]2[/SUP] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[SUP]3[/SUP] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4[/SUP] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Jesus said God gives good gifts to his chilldren

[SUP]11[/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

It would be so good if all who received tongues also ask for the grace of God to interpret and understand the divine mysteries they are blessed to speak.
[SUP]
John 7:37
37[/SUP]In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
[SUP]38[/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[SUP]39[/SUP] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Praise God.

john832 · Aug 19, 2013

KohenMatt said:

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I am sure you are already aware of this Matt, but here is an example of what this scripture means...

Act 28:2 And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold.
Act 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
Act 28:4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
Act 28:5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Act 28:6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

Snake handling, as practiced by some cults, is tempting God...

Luk 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Luk 4:11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

brmicke · Aug 19, 2013

presidente said:

Hi presidente - I don't know if that is babble or not.

The "Pentecost gift of speaking in Tongues" spoken of in Acts 2 is simply discussions about the works of God. The speakers were speaking in their native languages and Jesus followers who were from those nations understood the things they were talking about.

Some of the people were proselytes (converts to Judaism) from other nations and some of them were Jews from other nations. This ability to speak about the works of God was given to Christians from every nation and they were talking among themselves about these things regardless of what nation they were from.

In acts 2:11 we are clearly told that the people speaking were talking about the works of God and in acts 2:17 Peter tells us what the whole event called Pentecost was to illustrate that people from every nation would prophesy or speak about the works of God. The knowledge of the works of God would no longer be confined to Jews. Everyone who followed Jesus would now be given the knowledge of the works of God and of course the ability to speak about those works.

According to Matthew 13:11 unbelievers do not understand a conversation about the works of God because the knowledge of the kingdom is not given to them. That is why some unbelievers mocked the people speaking of the works of God and thought they were drunk, Acts 2:13.

Similarly, modern day unbelievers are not given the knowledge of the things of God and they mock Christians who speak of the works of God to this day.

Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mystifying scriptural matters is a characteristic of Pentacostal groups. The excessive spiritualization of the gift of Tongues is evidence of this. There is no mysterious empowerment to speak in an unknown language, or anything of that nature. It has to do with the ability to understand and speak of the things of God.

Brian

Cino · Aug 19, 2013

presidente said:

I don't have limited experience, so please don't get on your high horse and think that you are the only one that has ever experienced anyone with tongues. Also, the Bible states if it cannot be interpreted, to be silent in the church and speak in tongues between yourself and God. (I Corinthians 14:26-28.) Especially take note on verse 28. And learning different languages does not speaking in tongues either. My sister knew 6 languages perfectly and was an interpreter, and she never spoke in tongues. That is something totally different.

My point is that you do NOT need to speak in tongues to be saved. Speaking in tongues is NOT a sign of a true believer....if that were the case, then God would give ALL Christians to speak in tongues. Seems so many on here are so ignorant to this fact.

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