Torah Observant Christians.

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,589
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#61
Now that is definitely a false conclusion, since I have summarized exactly what is in the New Testament. Had you understood the finished work of Christ properly you would have agreed 100%.
I think we read scripture and it tells us opposite things because you are not reading it as every word absolute truth, but letting church doctrines lead your thinking.

I had the same problem I think you are showing until I decided to truly study the OT. I found that the many centuries that separate the people God used to explain His principles made it difficult, I found a man to help me understand who had studied the deep sea scrolls and could understand those principles of the lord. God never changes His principles, everything in scripture agrees when it is properly read.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
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#62
Jesus fulfilled the laws in which those that belong to him are not under the law by His righteousness. Paul went in to great detail with regards to this. Is the moral law a standard in which Christians should strive for? Yes. Are we required to follow them as a commandment by the law itself? No. If you have ever told a lie you’re a liar. You yourself cannot undo that. The law condemns you for such. I get what you’re saying, but we are not called to carry the heavy burden the law requires. Jesus did that for us.
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I commend you for understanding what I am saying, many would not even go that far.

The curse of the law Yeshua took to the cross and not the law. If you read Romans 3:19,20 is says... Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become quilty before God. Therefore, by the dids of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The above verse is important because with the law every mouth will stopped and all may become guilty of the law before God (which you will agree), by the law is the knowledge of sin (which you will agree). So, if you refrain from committing adultery you were obedient to God's law. You are obedient to God's law because a person who is saved by grace, justified by faith and made God's righteousness apart from the law will be obedient to the law of God. Romans 8:4 tell us, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit and verse what tells us that there is therefor now no condemnation to them who are in Yeshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. In other words, as we walk after the Spirit, the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the law. It is God's laws that the Spirit of God will fulfill in our lives.

As you can see, I am not stating that the Law makes us God's righteousness, but that when we refrain from sin with are being obedient to God's laws. I am making it clear that we are saved by grace alone through faith apart form the law and made God's righteousness in Yeshua not by the law, but we are obedient to God's law because we are saved and walk after the Spirit.

The problem is that many Gentile believers immediately assume the moment one say law they are introducing the doctrine of faith and work for salvation.

So when on keeps the law is because they are walking after the Spirit and the Spirit of God strengthens one to be obedient to the law of God, in other words, refraining from what God calls sin. Nothing to does with justification, but all to do with obedience to God.

Again, I commend you for weighing what I previously stated fairly. I am not here to convince anyone, I just put it on the table and the Spirit of God does the convincing and convicting. I wrote a book entitled "SEEK GOD" and wrong it so all ages can understand it, I gave a coming to a friend who is now a rabbi, he literally trashed my book, why? Because though I would hold Shabbat with him my book leaned more toward Christianity and he made that statement with me. My relationship is not with the law, my relationship is with God in Yeshua, it is about walking and growing with Yeshua and doing that which is right before God with a perfect heart.

As you can see, I put the law in its right perspective and when we do this when can see that the law has to do with obedient and not salvation, neither does it makes one God's righteousness, Yeshua did that for us on the cross.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,422
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#63
What is the purpose of the OT? The purpose of it was and is to reveal Gods plan for humanity. That plan is progressive not regressive.
The plan is to reverse the effects of the fall and restore humanities dominion over the earth and make us Sons of God through Christs ministry and sacrifice. This is portrayed in physical types and symbols throughout the OT. They are sign posts pointing to the true
reality of Gods kingdom which is spiritual and is described in the NT.

During his ministry Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses on our behalf. He ushered in the Kingdom of Heaven then. Its not something
somewhere above the clouds but within each and every one of us who accepts him as Lord and Saviour. He told us this and I believe
him. For the past 2000 years or so the kingdom of Heaven has been increasing through the Church which is his body and the true
temple. The Tabernacle and stone Temples were physical symbols of that reality. The kingdom now is a work in progress and will
culminate at his second coming.

Why yearn for something that's already been achieved? For us the OT enriches our understanding of Gods plan for us but the Law of Moses has been fulfilled.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
3,421
847
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#64
Torah observant Christians. Of course there plenty of scripture in the NT contrary to this brief
Being observant in order to earn a declaration of righteousness is what is prohibited in scripture. Being observant in and of itself, apart from that reason, is in no way prohibited by the scriptures.

We get into trouble when we start deciding we know why other people are being observant. We don't know, unless they come right out and tell us. And almost none of them say they are doing it in order to be justified. They do it because conscience compels them to do it, just like conscience compels us to 'not murder'. That realization is why I don't condemn observant believers anymore. Why is it I can keep commands like 'do not steal' and it not be me trying to justify myself, but observant people can't?
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
525
79
28
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#65
What is the purpose of the OT? The purpose of it was and is to reveal Gods plan for humanity. That plan is progressive not regressive.
The plan is to reverse the effects of the fall and restore humanities dominion over the earth and make us Sons of God through Christs ministry and sacrifice. This is portrayed in physical types and symbols throughout the OT. They are sign posts pointing to the true
reality of Gods kingdom which is spiritual and is described in the NT.

During his ministry Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses on our behalf. He ushered in the Kingdom of Heaven then. Its not something
somewhere above the clouds but within each and every one of us who accepts him as Lord and Saviour. He told us this and I believe
him. For the past 2000 years or so the kingdom of Heaven has been increasing through the Church which is his body and the true
temple. The Tabernacle and stone Temples were physical symbols of that reality. The kingdom now is a work in progress and will
culminate at his second coming.

Why yearn for something that's already been achieved? For us the OT enriches our understanding of Gods plan for us but the Law of Moses has been fulfilled.
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First, no one is yearning!

The message of salvation that was concealed prior to the birth of Yeshua was revealed in Yeshua, this does not mean that the law of God are done away with. The problem with Gentile believers is that they assume that one is working for Salvation when it has to do with obedient to the law of God and nothing to do with salvation, in other words, when you put the law in its right perspective they you will understand what it is being said according to the Scriptures.

What Yeshua did was take the curse of the law to the cross, therefore, there is no condemnation to them who are in Yeshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). Why after the Spirit? If you read verse 4 it tells us that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit. This has nothing to do with working for salvation, but all to do with be led by the Spirit so that the Spirit of God can fulfill the righteousness of the law in the believer's life and let me make myself clear, no man is justified by the law, the law does not make one the righteousness of God and we are saved by grace through the faith of Yeshua, the law is a walk to obedience that a walk to salvation, salvation is the gift of God.

Why did Yeshua say I come to fulfill? If you read the chapters according to the Gospel of Luke you will see that he fulfilled many things that were spoken of him prior to Luke 5:17. Don't stop at there, continue reading, Yeshua elaborate on the law, example, the law says though shall not commit adultery, but your said lust after a woman and you committed adultery. Is the law of adultery still stand? The Scriptures tell us that the law of the LORD are perfect, converting the soul.

Why don't you read Luke 24:44, Yeshua, sometime after his resurrection appeared to his disciples and said, these are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you (past tense), that all things must be fulfilled (in other wordsnot every is fulfilled yet) which written in the law of Moses, in the prophets, and in the Psalms that will be fulfilled concerning me. Question, how can you say that Yeshua fulfilled the law of Moses on our behalf and not all is yet fulfilled?

When one learns to put the law in its right perspective then one will see the truth of what God made clear when he first spoke. Instead of interpreting the Scriptures to fit your view, let the Spirit of God enlighten your mind with a true understand of the word of God, what God made clear when he first spoke. The problem with man, they tend to go into the Scriptures to interpret God's word to fit their own view, the view they were once impressed with and still hold on to.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
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#66
Being observant in order to earn a declaration of righteousness is what is prohibited in scripture. Being observant in and of itself, apart from that reason, is in no way prohibited by the scriptures.

We get into trouble when we start deciding we know why other people are being observant. We don't know, unless they come right out and tell us. And almost none of them say they are doing it in order to be justified. They do it because conscience compels them to do it, just like conscience compels us to 'not murder'. That realization is why I don't condemn observant believers anymore. Why is it I can keep commands like 'do not steal' and it not be me trying to justify myself, but observant people can't?
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Judges, the problem is that they deliberately blind themselves to the truth of God's word. They tell you that the commandments are done away with, but they tell you that they cannot steal, etc. Is is what the nowadays democrats how the law, they say one thing and do the opposite, they say that they defend the constitution of the U.S. but they want to due away with the 1st and 2nd amendment. Put it this way, many believers voted democrat, they do not weigh their vote according to the Scriptures.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
3,421
847
113
#67
They tell you that the commandments are done away with, but they tell you that they cannot steal, etc.
Well, it is true that they misunderstand what it means for the old covenant to be made obsolete by faith in Christ. Except in regard to animal sacrifice. They understand that very well. But the outcome is the same even if they really did understand it well--it's no longer required to follow the Feast and Sabbath commands of the old covenant. You can if you want, and if the Catholic Church hadn't invented it's own worship rules, we'd all be meeting together in a generally old covenant kind of way.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
698
337
63
#68
Hi again, Aerials1978!

Two things I notice right off on the subject of Christians keeping Torah today.

One is that the bulk of the commandments can't be kept, unless one claims to keep them "spiritually".

The other is that Torah actually says some things that made sense in a bronze age culture in the middle East, but aren't a good idea in, say, 21st century USA.

Deuteronomy 22: 28. If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29. then the man who lay with her shall give to the lady's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

Seriously? Require a woman to marry her rapist?
Lol. At face value, doesn't that law effectively allow a man to buy a wife of his choosing? Provided he has the fifty shekels of silver? :eek:

do you circumcise new converts to your church? why not? its in the bible. its in the torah.
Nope! Fortunately, the law requires the males be done at 8 days old, which saves a lot of awkwardness later on.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,206
2,412
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#69
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

For those who try to be "torah" observant this is what they are placing themselves under.

Paul exhorts us NOT to do this on more than one occasion.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.



Here's Peter saying the same thing as Paul;

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
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#70
Well, it is true that they misunderstand what it means for the old covenant to be made obsolete by faith in Christ. Except in regard to animal sacrifice. They understand that very well. But the outcome is the same even if they really did understand it well--it's no longer required to follow the Feast and Sabbath commands of the old covenant. You can if you want, and if the Catholic Church hadn't invented it's own worship rules, we'd all be meeting together in a generally old covenant kind of way.
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The Apostle never removed the Sabbath day, this all started with the Romans they wanted nothing to do with the Jews. The old covenant was made with their fathers on tablets of stone, the new covenant was made with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah to store the laws in their minds and write them in their heart. It was not made with the Gentiles and nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that it was made with the Gentiles, but Gentiles want you to believe that because many in my opinion want nothing to do with the Jews.

As for the feast, God made some of the feast are everlasting and that is between God and the Jews.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,206
2,412
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#71
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The Apostle never removed the Sabbath day, this all started with the Romans they wanted nothing to do with the Jews. The old covenant was made with their fathers on tablets of stone, the new covenant was made with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah to store the laws in their minds and write them in their heart. It was not made with the Gentiles and nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that it was made with the Gentiles, but Gentiles want you to believe that because many in my opinion want nothing to do with the Jews.

As for the feast, God made some of the feast are everlasting and that is between God and the Jews.
Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


We are all one in Christ Jesus.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,206
2,412
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#73
Only if they are trying to be justified by Torah observance.
No. For those who work at "Torah". It doesn't matter if they try to be justified or not because it is not POSSIBLE to be justified by it.

Read it again.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

There is no caveat for those who are not "trying to be justified" by it.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
8,993
1,035
113
#74
At face value, doesn't that law effectively allow a man to buy a wife of his choosing? Provided he has the fifty shekels of silver?
Yes, I believe that commandment could be exploited in that fashion!
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,422
916
113
72
#75
-------------------------
First, no one is yearning!

The message of salvation that was concealed prior to the birth of Yeshua was revealed in Yeshua, this does not mean that the law of God are done away with. The problem with Gentile believers is that they assume that one is working for Salvation when it has to do with obedient to the law of God and nothing to do with salvation, in other words, when you put the law in its right perspective they you will understand what it is being said according to the Scriptures.

What Yeshua did was take the curse of the law to the cross, therefore, there is no condemnation to them who are in Yeshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). Why after the Spirit? If you read verse 4 it tells us that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit. This has nothing to do with working for salvation, but all to do with be led by the Spirit so that the Spirit of God can fulfill the righteousness of the law in the believer's life and let me make myself clear, no man is justified by the law, the law does not make one the righteousness of God and we are saved by grace through the faith of Yeshua, the law is a walk to obedience that a walk to salvation, salvation is the gift of God.

Why did Yeshua say I come to fulfill? If you read the chapters according to the Gospel of Luke you will see that he fulfilled many things that were spoken of him prior to Luke 5:17. Don't stop at there, continue reading, Yeshua elaborate on the law, example, the law says though shall not commit adultery, but your said lust after a woman and you committed adultery. Is the law of adultery still stand? The Scriptures tell us that the law of the LORD are perfect, converting the soul.

Why don't you read Luke 24:44, Yeshua, sometime after his resurrection appeared to his disciples and said, these are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you (past tense), that all things must be fulfilled (in other wordsnot every is fulfilled yet) which written in the law of Moses, in the prophets, and in the Psalms that will be fulfilled concerning me. Question, how can you say that Yeshua fulfilled the law of Moses on our behalf and not all is yet fulfilled?

When one learns to put the law in its right perspective then one will see the truth of what God made clear when he first spoke. Instead of interpreting the Scriptures to fit your view, let the Spirit of God enlighten your mind with a true understand of the word of God, what God made clear when he first spoke. The problem with man, they tend to go into the Scriptures to interpret God's word to fit their own view, the view they were once impressed with and still hold on to.
You speak about the Torah but what do you mean by it? Do you mean the moral aspects of the Law or the whole 613 commandments
spoken of in Judaism including those regarding the Temple rituals which are now impossible to to fulfil after the events in AD 70.
People were led by the holy spirit long before Moses. The difference now is that since the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit indwells
believers permanently. If the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell a person then they are still without Christ.

After his resurrection he had fulfilled everything concerning him in the scriptures. He is the living word, the embodiment of Israel
and Lord of Heaven and Earth.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
3,421
847
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#76
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The Apostle never removed the Sabbath day, this all started with the Romans they wanted nothing to do with the Jews. The old covenant was made with their fathers on tablets of stone, the new covenant was made with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah to store the laws in their minds and write them in their heart. It was not made with the Gentiles and nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that it was made with the Gentiles
Then that settles the Sabbath keeping issue for about 90% of the church.

...but Gentiles want you to believe that because many in my opinion want nothing to do with the Jews.
Now that is true.'
The reason the church is separated from the Jews in regard to the Festival and Sabbath schedule is because the early church didn't want to be persecuted along with the Jews.

As for the feast, God made some of the feast are everlasting and that is between God and the Jews.
All the Festival requirements are completely and totally and forever satisfied for the person who believes in Christ and fulfills the law by loving others as themselves. No outstanding debt of Festival observance remains for the person who has been justified in Christ.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
3,421
847
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#77
No. For those who work at "Torah". It doesn't matter if they try to be justified or not because it is not POSSIBLE to be justified by it.

Read it again.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

There is no caveat for those who are not "trying to be justified" by it.
Actually there is. The whole letter is about them trying to be justified by the law, not just keeping it.

"4You who are trying to be justified by the law.." - Galatians 5:4

If just keeping the law for any reason condemned you then Paul himself was most certainly condemned. You can read about him purposely keeping the law in Acts even though he is the very one that taught the church about the end of the necessity to do the works of the law (for justification).
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,206
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#78
Actually there is. The whole letter is about them trying to be justified by the law, not just keeping it.

"4You who are trying to be justified by the law.." - Galatians 5:4

If just keeping the law for any reason condemned you then Paul himself was most certainly condemned. You can read about him purposely keeping the law in Acts even though he is the very one that taught the church about the end of the necessity to do the works of the law (for justification).
Keeping the law is not what condemns a person.

Working at the law is what condemns a person.


Paul would keep Jewish rituals while he was around Jews in order to preach the gospel to them.


But that's neither here nor there. The real question is what is the point of working at the law if you are NOT attempting to be justified by it in some way????

Just doing it for fun?

Or is it like all the legalists and you are trying to be "obedient" by your work at the law?
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
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#79
Then that settles the Sabbath keeping issue for about 90% of the church.


Now that is true.'
The reason the church is separated from the Jews in regard to the Festival and Sabbath schedule is because the early church didn't want to be persecuted along with the Jews.


All the Festival requirements are completely and totally and forever satisfied for the person who believes in Christ and fulfills the law by loving others as themselves. No outstanding debt of Festival observance remains for the person who has been justified in Christ.
______________________________________________

I am trying to get a point across that the Gentiles makes it appears at the new covenant was for them. I would not burden the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath holy, but being that they become part of the commonwealth of Israel they should learn to keep it.

As for the Festival, Jewish believers are Gentile believers brothers, so it would be nice if the Gentile partake of their brethren feast.

By the way, read Galatians carefully, no man is justified by the works of the law does not mean that the law is not to be kept, one needs to be obedient to the law of God. Gentiles believers ignorantly or deliberately blind themselves from the truth of God's word, what God made clear when he first spoke.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,206
2,412
113
#80
______________________________________________

I am trying to get a point across that the Gentiles makes it appears at the new covenant was for them. I would not burden the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath holy, but being that they become part of the commonwealth of Israel they should learn to keep it.

As for the Festival, Jewish believers are Gentile believers brothers, so it would be nice if the Gentile partake of their brethren feast.

By the way, read Galatians carefully, no man is justified by the works of the law does not mean that the law is not to be kept, one needs to be obedient to the law of God. Gentiles believers ignorantly or deliberately blind themselves from the truth of God's word, what God made clear when he first spoke.
Its actually the opposite.

It is the workers of the law who are deliberately blind to the Gospel.

2 Corinthians 3:13-16
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.