Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 14, 2016

Yay! At least you understand now how I was relating the verses to the op.

Yes, I agree, HRFTD.

I think an argument surrounds this (from what I have been able to ascertain) in which people argue that each other are in dead works. Both sides believe this about each OTHER.

However, both sides affirm that in no way is it possible to walk holy and blameless of ourselves but that the Holy Spirit shows us where we err in our hearts and causes us to see where we have erred and renews our minds to conform us to Christ, growing us in virtue by His work in us.

My burning question is, since it is expected of me to abide in Christ, and since I do not sin if I do, how do I keep abiding in Him?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 14, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

You don't seem to understand that there are those who say that they cannot do righteous works at all, therefore Christ must do those works through them himself. It is imaginary.

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 14, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I never heard EXACTLY that...but in a sense, this is one way of putting what I would say as: I must decrease (or I'll put my selfish self in the whole proceedings and muck it up) and He must increase.

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 14, 2016

But there is one thing that seems imaginary to me.
It is to say, "I am the righteousness of God.
My mind cannot accept or say it.
I CAN say that He died for me so that I might BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ, from faith to faith and grace to grace.

Grace777x70 · Jun 14, 2016

I will not speak for others but this is what I believe in relation to "doing righteous deeds".

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested in a believer's life ....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " that we already have now in our new creation ( the inner man ) is because we are in Christ - will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

These are the "fruits of righteousness" but they originate from the Spirit of God inside of us and are not from our own works of the flesh and only God can determine that - because they look the same outwardly.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 14, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

Because you are listening to what the spirit within you witnesses.

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 14, 2016

I can get with the "ARE being transformed" part!
To hear someone say "I AM" instead of "I ARE" is where I shudder a little.
Might be the same type of thing as your aversion to "The Holy Spirit convicts me of sin" rather than "The Holy Spirit shows me where I err in my heart."

edit: this was addressed to G77's post.

Grace777x70 · Jun 14, 2016

I can give you guys what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.

Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

Grace777x70 · Jun 14, 2016

Here is one more from the OT - Isaiah 54: 17 of the Lord telling what the believer would have because of what Christ did in Isaiah 53 when He died on the cross to take away our sin and make us righteous in Him.

Isaiah 54:17

[SUP]17 [/SUP] "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," declares the LORD.

Folks we have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!

Ephesians 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 14, 2016

What's funny is some folks believe that they are the righteousness of GOD, yet they can't do righteousness.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 14, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

This btw is probably as good of a description of total inability as there is.

Stunnedbygrace · Jun 14, 2016

I read all those verses every time you post them G77.

I am not miles apart from the way you see it.
The main thing I differ on is that...I don't believe I am already as holy and without blemish as I will be when He's through with me. When He's through growing me up into full stature, done renewing my mind.

If I was right now without spot or blemish still (but becoming more and more like my Lord), I'm not certain what my race would even BE...

Ariel82 · Jun 14, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Or it could just be a way of speaking you don't like....

Not sure why someone saying God works through them would be an issue.

Aren't we called to,be His hands and feet?

Ariel82 · Jun 14, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Is it because it's yours?

UnderGrace · Jun 14, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Thank you for sharing all those wonderful scriptures which make it so clear around our standing in Jesus and what He has accomplished. I will take His righteous which is freeing, unlike the law which demands.

Paul Ellis did a great post on this today.

https://escapetoreality.org/2016/06/15/is-grace-a-license-to-be-lazy/

I am not sure if it was Paul Ellis but someone said when we meet Jesus we will say "Worthy is the Lamb" not "Worthy is the Lamb and me".

We are righteous in Him and we are set free to be His righteousness. Everything else is doctrine not truth.

Angela

Ariel82 · Jun 14, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

I know a psalm that comes to mind, let me go find it.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 14, 2016

Ariel82 said:

I've had enough.

Ariel82 · Jun 14, 2016

Mmm can't find it but found this instead.....

*My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. *And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.*He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.*He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. *He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. *But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.*Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. *For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. *And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. - 1 John 2:1-2,6,9-11,15-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John2:1-2,6,9-11,15-17&version=NKJV

Grace777x70 · Jun 14, 2016

Stunnedbygrace said:

I understand what you are saying. The renewing of the mind is of the utmost importance in our Christian life in the Lord. Now you are talking about sanctification which is different from righteousness. Here are the scriptures to go along with sanctification and being sanctified.

This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy....

However there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

God sets apart ( sanctifies ) our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

( who are sanctified this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive )..

Perfect = an event that happened in the past and it's effects are continuously happening in the present as a completed state. Passive means something is being done to you - you are not doing it.

Acts 26:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,

[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' ( perfect passive )

It is obvious from scripture that we are to walk out the holiness that is in us.

There is a difference between us as a person being "set apart" ( sanctified in our spirit ) and "setting apart " ( sanctifying ) our behavior.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Ariel82 · Jun 14, 2016

PeterJens said:

Ariel - have you ever seen the six stages of communication

1. What you want to say
2. What you think you said
3. What you actually said
4. What was they actually heard
5. What they thought they heard
6. What they thought it meant

Now at each step mistakes can be made. For good communication you repeat back your understanding.
Now some people create a different version. Get asked a question then respond with a completely different answer and intimate the person actually said something totally different.

After months of this type of interaction things have got more real. When facts are not forth coming I create a reasonable summary of the positions. In general this works, but it is a bit flaky.

Things though have deterioated because the arguments are being lost, and that seriously annoys them.
The latest attempts is to get me banned, but that does not work if you cannot provoke them enough.

It is why things go quiet for ages, because repeating the same theology does not work or provoking with every tactic.
Am I innocent? I just do not think like that. I just explore ideas and positions and put forward arguments.

6 steps are nice but..it's missing the step where you listen and ask for clarification and any communication actually occurs.

Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

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