Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam
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E
if the army God used to remove the nation from the land killed righteous as well as unrighteous people..then i see it as fitting properly.
And he did say cut off from the land, at least that is the way I see it, that's why I highlighted the two phrases.. To me, that is the context.
Look at AD 70. There was a bloodbath, (even when babylon entered the city in daniels day, All kinds of people were killed). It did not matter if they were saved or not.
In the eternal perspective, the saved went to paradise, the unsaved went to Hades.. there eternal destination was never in question.
there removal from the land was..
at least again, that is the way I see it
And he did say cut off from the land, at least that is the way I see it, that's why I highlighted the two phrases.. To me, that is the context.
Look at AD 70. There was a bloodbath, (even when babylon entered the city in daniels day, All kinds of people were killed). It did not matter if they were saved or not.
In the eternal perspective, the saved went to paradise, the unsaved went to Hades.. there eternal destination was never in question.
there removal from the land was..
at least again, that is the way I see it
A
That is the doctrine.....that without God man is totally unable to do good.
not much to fight over with that concept so folks will add or take away to create a straw man to beat up on.
For example..,they will assume that means folks,teach people can't do good and only see the righteousness of Christ.
Instead of simply that it is through God and His power only that we are able to do any good.
not much to fight over with that concept so folks will add or take away to create a straw man to beat up on.
For example..,they will assume that means folks,teach people can't do good and only see the righteousness of Christ.
Instead of simply that it is through God and His power only that we are able to do any good.
I think this is the whole theme God has on His heart.
A lot of christians look at the cross as some court room setting things right.
But imagine history is so constructed, to purchase a people for eternity, things had to be left until the appropriate time for God to become man, make friends, teach, lay things out properly and then resolve the issue in relationship.
The problem with man is we are so bad at relationship and love. We aspire to our soul mate in marriage, and end up with divorces, people living alone, sexual relationships to meet sexual desire but hate the individual.
And what is mans version of Gods salvation. Have a one night fling and you are saved to eternity.
Were Israel any different? Nope. Saved out of Egypt, Moses gone for a while, get a golden calf and lets party.
God called us to communion for eternity. That is salvation and eternal life. And it is possible on earth.
Jesus desired that we on earth might have the same communion He had with the Father while on earth.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one
John 17:22
A lot of christians look at the cross as some court room setting things right.
But imagine history is so constructed, to purchase a people for eternity, things had to be left until the appropriate time for God to become man, make friends, teach, lay things out properly and then resolve the issue in relationship.
The problem with man is we are so bad at relationship and love. We aspire to our soul mate in marriage, and end up with divorces, people living alone, sexual relationships to meet sexual desire but hate the individual.
And what is mans version of Gods salvation. Have a one night fling and you are saved to eternity.
Were Israel any different? Nope. Saved out of Egypt, Moses gone for a while, get a golden calf and lets party.
God called us to communion for eternity. That is salvation and eternal life. And it is possible on earth.
Jesus desired that we on earth might have the same communion He had with the Father while on earth.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one
John 17:22
that is the sad, sad thing e.g. it really is that simple. God's standard is perfection. 100% there is no partiality with him. you get to enter the Kingdom by being perfect by works, doing everything right all the time without fail. or, you accept Jesus's righteousness and do the good works that he has prepared for you. theses are the only 2 options, no matter how many options the prideful hearts of men ( and women ) create.
Ariel - I believe we can be and are a holy, righteous and perfect people already. It is putting the right words around it.
Many would want to disqualify us from attaining or walking in these words and call them sinless perfectionism as a kind of curse. Some have said behaviour modification is also self salvation as if this is not part of the gospel.
So my focus was to say, what in the thoughts of total inability preclude us from walking in righteousness as God defines it, and the apostles achieved. The two parts are talking about the social role of the church, confession, repentance, encouragement, support and love and the other side what is righteousness, how do you bound it, define it, get a handle on it. Many just fall apart in a heap of self condemnation, just thinking about it, which means for them it might be too big a concept, but I am not there.
The opposition is very real, so it is not simply name and claim it, it is a process and a place of seeing where people are and where they need to get to.
Many would want to disqualify us from attaining or walking in these words and call them sinless perfectionism as a kind of curse. Some have said behaviour modification is also self salvation as if this is not part of the gospel.
So my focus was to say, what in the thoughts of total inability preclude us from walking in righteousness as God defines it, and the apostles achieved. The two parts are talking about the social role of the church, confession, repentance, encouragement, support and love and the other side what is righteousness, how do you bound it, define it, get a handle on it. Many just fall apart in a heap of self condemnation, just thinking about it, which means for them it might be too big a concept, but I am not there.
The opposition is very real, so it is not simply name and claim it, it is a process and a place of seeing where people are and where they need to get to.
E
Actually this is what scripture says the cross is.
The term translated "it is finished", is a greek term that people would weat around their necks after they got out of prison, So no one could charge them of that crime again, It meant, I have paid my debt in full.
Paul in Colossians, says that God has taken what was against us, contrary to us, (legal terms for the charges which is brought against a person criminally charged) and removed them having nailed them to the cross
Justification is a legal term. meaning one has been declared innocent of all charges which were brought against him, It means one is innocent, or seen as "righteous"
if the cross is anything but this, No one can make it to heaven, we would all be on our own.. and the law would condemn every one of us..
The issue in relationship is man has sinned and fallen short of gods glory, the penalty of sin (in a court of law) was death. So someone had to pay the price of redemption.
The price to be paid had to be the penalty uncured (death) Thus jesus death, as payment in full for man sin, can now restor a man or woman to relationship with thier father.
If the sin debt is not paid, there is no restoration.
Living a good moral life will not save anyone, They are still found guilty by the law Only one sin is required, after that one sin, Everyone is condemned. for the rest of their life, All they do is keep adding crimes which bring about the death penalty over and over, and collect them
We must ask ourself a question.. If we, a self proclaimed moral person, Have only 1000 sins our whole life (meaning we have 1000 death penalties against us) and the sinner has a billion death penalties against them.
When it comes to judgment day, Who will suffer death? They both will. all it take is 1.. The judge does not even have to take into account the rest of the charges, Death is death, One sin is all it takes.
We (mankind) do not and can not love, Thats the problem. And thats why an unbeliever can do no good. Good in Gods eyes is love, Gods way (not mans way) we can sort of make a duplicate which looks like Gods love, But it will never be the sane, it will still be carnal sin in Gods eyes.
we have to experience love first, Be filled with Gods love, before we even have a capacity to love others.
I am saddened you think you are better than that man who had that fling..
They may have been saved on earth, But eternally, they never knew God..
yes, and he makes us one by taking that penalty, and restoring that which is dead to eternal life..
The term translated "it is finished", is a greek term that people would weat around their necks after they got out of prison, So no one could charge them of that crime again, It meant, I have paid my debt in full.
Paul in Colossians, says that God has taken what was against us, contrary to us, (legal terms for the charges which is brought against a person criminally charged) and removed them having nailed them to the cross
Justification is a legal term. meaning one has been declared innocent of all charges which were brought against him, It means one is innocent, or seen as "righteous"
if the cross is anything but this, No one can make it to heaven, we would all be on our own.. and the law would condemn every one of us..
The issue in relationship is man has sinned and fallen short of gods glory, the penalty of sin (in a court of law) was death. So someone had to pay the price of redemption.
The price to be paid had to be the penalty uncured (death) Thus jesus death, as payment in full for man sin, can now restor a man or woman to relationship with thier father.
If the sin debt is not paid, there is no restoration.
Living a good moral life will not save anyone, They are still found guilty by the law Only one sin is required, after that one sin, Everyone is condemned. for the rest of their life, All they do is keep adding crimes which bring about the death penalty over and over, and collect them
We must ask ourself a question.. If we, a self proclaimed moral person, Have only 1000 sins our whole life (meaning we have 1000 death penalties against us) and the sinner has a billion death penalties against them.
When it comes to judgment day, Who will suffer death? They both will. all it take is 1.. The judge does not even have to take into account the rest of the charges, Death is death, One sin is all it takes.
We (mankind) do not and can not love, Thats the problem. And thats why an unbeliever can do no good. Good in Gods eyes is love, Gods way (not mans way) we can sort of make a duplicate which looks like Gods love, But it will never be the sane, it will still be carnal sin in Gods eyes.
we have to experience love first, Be filled with Gods love, before we even have a capacity to love others.
I am saddened you think you are better than that man who had that fling..
They may have been saved on earth, But eternally, they never knew God..
yes, and he makes us one by taking that penalty, and restoring that which is dead to eternal life..
Simple things are simple, complex things are not.
The idea that salvation is just putting your faith in Jesus is plainly false.
The problem with mankind is we believe we are ok and our solutions are instant and complete.
We do not do well with uncertainty or contracts or relationships.
God calls use to obedience, Jesus calls us to obedience, the apostles call us to obedience yet some groups call us to faith and ignoring morality. Worse still they say those who say obedience matters are legalists barring the door to heaven.
Now all of this is a distraction. It is also a distraction on purpose by those who have no interest in answering the question, can we behave righteously with purity and holiness. It appears Paul thought so, John thought so and Peter.
It is not though a popular position yet as someone said, if they could live for a day righteously they would jump at it.
It was said sarcastically because they believe this is impossible. But that shows how deeply in christian thought and theology this idea is just not dealt with or addressed properly, yet it is core to our faith.
In reality Gods people just go on living righteously, holy and pure lives and people just do not want to see that, because none of these people would ever say, look at me, because that is the point, it is a position of service and faithfulness to our Lord. But I think in all seriousness this is a failure in teaching and preaching, a failure in accepting the power of the cross and the resurrection.
People want to believe their defeated lives today mean they will tomorrow walk into heaven and the Lord will greet them as good and faithful servants. There is a big disconnect here.
The idea that salvation is just putting your faith in Jesus is plainly false.
The problem with mankind is we believe we are ok and our solutions are instant and complete.
We do not do well with uncertainty or contracts or relationships.
God calls use to obedience, Jesus calls us to obedience, the apostles call us to obedience yet some groups call us to faith and ignoring morality. Worse still they say those who say obedience matters are legalists barring the door to heaven.
Now all of this is a distraction. It is also a distraction on purpose by those who have no interest in answering the question, can we behave righteously with purity and holiness. It appears Paul thought so, John thought so and Peter.
It is not though a popular position yet as someone said, if they could live for a day righteously they would jump at it.
It was said sarcastically because they believe this is impossible. But that shows how deeply in christian thought and theology this idea is just not dealt with or addressed properly, yet it is core to our faith.
In reality Gods people just go on living righteously, holy and pure lives and people just do not want to see that, because none of these people would ever say, look at me, because that is the point, it is a position of service and faithfulness to our Lord. But I think in all seriousness this is a failure in teaching and preaching, a failure in accepting the power of the cross and the resurrection.
People want to believe their defeated lives today mean they will tomorrow walk into heaven and the Lord will greet them as good and faithful servants. There is a big disconnect here.
EG - your intention is to block any discussion in real terms. This is a pointless task.
Does it ever occur to you that the court room analogy is just that? It is a way of picturing the harm we have in our hearts between us and God, and how the cross resolves this, sorts it out. It had to be God, because He had to demonstrate how much He loves us. It had to be men who killed Him, because they are our sin and attitude, and it had to be human friends who saw it, because they are our future.
Your theology of future sins forgiven is just heresy. As Ezek 18:21 says a wicked person is reward for turning from transgression, while Ezek 18:24 says a righteous person who sins, it will be like they were never righteous.
This is our spiritual reality, that God laid out before Christ. Christ turned the sacrifices and temple, into His death and resurrection and our communion with Him. It did not change the reality if you leave faith, you leave salvation.
Sinful behaviour matters. But what becomes confusing is the hyper legalism which makes everything in human life sinful if done as not specified by the hyper conscience or preacher. So it is never possible to be righteous, and turns Ezek into a lie.
This is why in the final analysis I say these doctrines are another faith.
You want to pursue this approach EG but it will fail, because walking in the light just exposes where you stand.
Does it ever occur to you that the court room analogy is just that? It is a way of picturing the harm we have in our hearts between us and God, and how the cross resolves this, sorts it out. It had to be God, because He had to demonstrate how much He loves us. It had to be men who killed Him, because they are our sin and attitude, and it had to be human friends who saw it, because they are our future.
Your theology of future sins forgiven is just heresy. As Ezek 18:21 says a wicked person is reward for turning from transgression, while Ezek 18:24 says a righteous person who sins, it will be like they were never righteous.
This is our spiritual reality, that God laid out before Christ. Christ turned the sacrifices and temple, into His death and resurrection and our communion with Him. It did not change the reality if you leave faith, you leave salvation.
Sinful behaviour matters. But what becomes confusing is the hyper legalism which makes everything in human life sinful if done as not specified by the hyper conscience or preacher. So it is never possible to be righteous, and turns Ezek into a lie.
This is why in the final analysis I say these doctrines are another faith.
You want to pursue this approach EG but it will fail, because walking in the light just exposes where you stand.
I agree that there is a disconnect. (I usually think of it as a schizophrenia.) We are quite capable of holding two opposing ideas in our minds and somehow believing BOTH to be true.
I disagree with your statement though that salvation is more than putting our faith in Jesus. But I ALSO think that putting our faith in Jesus is more than we imagine it to be.
I disagree with your statement though that salvation is more than putting our faith in Jesus. But I ALSO think that putting our faith in Jesus is more than we imagine it to be.
E
Then tell me Peter, Who should I put my faith in? If not Jesus.
Yep. I agree
Who Peter. here you go making accusations again, Who teaches that we can have faith and ignore morality, And who says that anyone who teaches morality is barred from heaven?
We are back to the same strawman are we not.
Please Peter. Show us who teaches these things.. with proof. or stop bearing false witness against them.
And I think so and so does everyone else, in the context of being a christian. and being able to mature in christ
In the context of doing these things to be holy enough to be save. then no, we can not be these things, And non of the apostles would say otherwise.
Or could it just be, if he could live one day sinless, He would jump at the chance.. I would, wouldn't you?
now if we think we cna go a day without one false thought, or one sin no matter how small. then we are in serious trouble..
No thats not the problem, The problem is God says we are not to focus on self. so no christian would ever say look at me.. He would always point to christ, If someone is saying look at me, Well that is usually a sighn we need to stay away from that person, That person has a disease, it is called legalism or phariseeism.
People want to think their righteous lives will get them access to heaven.
That is just not the case, they will be no more saved than the licentious person who believes in god, but has no faith in him at all.. and continues to live in sin.
no peter. here we go again, A great morning, no judgment, no calling people liars. No saying a person believes this, But just sharing our view.
And in two posts you went of again and starting judging peoples motives and hearts.
you really do not want to go there do you? Because every time you do you prove what I and many others have said about you is true.
Can we have on day where you do not falsly accuse other people and judge them? Is this too hard to ask?
Yep. I agree
Who Peter. here you go making accusations again, Who teaches that we can have faith and ignore morality, And who says that anyone who teaches morality is barred from heaven?
We are back to the same strawman are we not.
Please Peter. Show us who teaches these things.. with proof. or stop bearing false witness against them.
And I think so and so does everyone else, in the context of being a christian. and being able to mature in christ
In the context of doing these things to be holy enough to be save. then no, we can not be these things, And non of the apostles would say otherwise.
Or could it just be, if he could live one day sinless, He would jump at the chance.. I would, wouldn't you?
now if we think we cna go a day without one false thought, or one sin no matter how small. then we are in serious trouble..
No thats not the problem, The problem is God says we are not to focus on self. so no christian would ever say look at me.. He would always point to christ, If someone is saying look at me, Well that is usually a sighn we need to stay away from that person, That person has a disease, it is called legalism or phariseeism.
People want to think their righteous lives will get them access to heaven.
That is just not the case, they will be no more saved than the licentious person who believes in god, but has no faith in him at all.. and continues to live in sin.
no peter. here we go again, A great morning, no judgment, no calling people liars. No saying a person believes this, But just sharing our view.
And in two posts you went of again and starting judging peoples motives and hearts.
you really do not want to go there do you? Because every time you do you prove what I and many others have said about you is true.
Can we have on day where you do not falsly accuse other people and judge them? Is this too hard to ask?
The disconnect you are seeing is men declaring themselves to be righteous even though they act unrighteously.
There is no such thing as an unrighteous righteousness.
Make no mistake, a righteous man does what is right. (Forget where that vs. is).
Humility does not claim something that it has not yet attained to.
But it can take joy in the race!
There is no such thing as an unrighteous righteousness.
Make no mistake, a righteous man does what is right. (Forget where that vs. is).
Humility does not claim something that it has not yet attained to.
But it can take joy in the race!
I agree. Some people get stuck at the cross, I am saved but do not know how to progress.
I would answer this by saying it is because obedience teaches us what we are inside and gets to work changing us.
If we never obey and just do, we are saying we know better. It struck me CBT is actually what in part the gospel is about.
Action followed by emotional response, which retrains how we interact.
The enemy always wants Gods people stationary and disobedient. All they can really do is slow the process down.
What drives me now is putting these ideas and appreciation of Gods commands and wisdom into practice and counter act against false theology and heresies which disposes people from knowing the power of God working in victory in their lives.
Being brutally honest, it is a great encouragement when I see people moving forward in these things bringing glory to His name, because that is where the Kingdom of heaven is.
I would answer this by saying it is because obedience teaches us what we are inside and gets to work changing us.
If we never obey and just do, we are saying we know better. It struck me CBT is actually what in part the gospel is about.
Action followed by emotional response, which retrains how we interact.
The enemy always wants Gods people stationary and disobedient. All they can really do is slow the process down.
What drives me now is putting these ideas and appreciation of Gods commands and wisdom into practice and counter act against false theology and heresies which disposes people from knowing the power of God working in victory in their lives.
Being brutally honest, it is a great encouragement when I see people moving forward in these things bringing glory to His name, because that is where the Kingdom of heaven is.
E
peter Your arrogance is showingn through again.II promised a friend I would not do this, But you always like to push things done you??
All I did was give a different view that what you gave, to explain a different perspective (THAT IS WHAT DISCUSSION LOOKS LIKE.)'
You want a one way discussion where everyone looks at it your way, and damn anyone else who thinks different..
Did it ever occur to you to think it is more than judt that. That God in his perfect justice has condmned us to hell and placed judgment on us, because of our sin?
whoever is at the great white throne judgment, that is a court room, And Jesus is judge,,
You do not want to be there Peter. believe me.. If your there, It is too late,
Your theology that just past sin is heresy (see the back and forth,)
, You yell at me saying i am trying to stop discussion when it is you. What good does it do to say your thinking is hersy? did it prove anything? No! ALL you did was judge.
but that seems to be all you know how to do Peter.. I keep praying you prove me wrong, But you keep stepping right back into it.
Thats your view, and your allowed to have it.
But someone who has true saving faith, will never leave that, John makes that clear, they were never of us.
Really, I ask the room, I ask the mods,
Does this not get old. How long do we have to put up with this stuff?
is everyone going to sit here while peter places judgment on anyone who does not agree with him, based on his FALSE view of what people believe? Is that what CC is all about.
I know we are called to give grace, But please. This is a place representing the church, there has to come a time where we say enough is enough. and chasten a person who calls himself a brother, they way God told us to do it,, Otherwise are we not just condoning sin?
All I did was give a different view that what you gave, to explain a different perspective (THAT IS WHAT DISCUSSION LOOKS LIKE.)'
You want a one way discussion where everyone looks at it your way, and damn anyone else who thinks different..
Did it ever occur to you to think it is more than judt that. That God in his perfect justice has condmned us to hell and placed judgment on us, because of our sin?
whoever is at the great white throne judgment, that is a court room, And Jesus is judge,,
You do not want to be there Peter. believe me.. If your there, It is too late,
Your theology that just past sin is heresy (see the back and forth,)
, You yell at me saying i am trying to stop discussion when it is you. What good does it do to say your thinking is hersy? did it prove anything? No! ALL you did was judge.
but that seems to be all you know how to do Peter.. I keep praying you prove me wrong, But you keep stepping right back into it.
Thats your view, and your allowed to have it.
But someone who has true saving faith, will never leave that, John makes that clear, they were never of us.
Really, I ask the room, I ask the mods,
Does this not get old. How long do we have to put up with this stuff?
is everyone going to sit here while peter places judgment on anyone who does not agree with him, based on his FALSE view of what people believe? Is that what CC is all about.
I know we are called to give grace, But please. This is a place representing the church, there has to come a time where we say enough is enough. and chasten a person who calls himself a brother, they way God told us to do it,, Otherwise are we not just condoning sin?