Traditions of Men

[secularhermit]

"they" do not worship idols either. So we are in agreement on that. (...)

.

Excuse me, Sir!

I was asked to be knelt (the whole congregation) before that "image" was walked around the building we were in.

I have seen several priests kissing their "images"

and, after that, they asked people to do the same or to be knelt, according to their traditions and you said "they did not worship idols"

Jewish traditionalists do the same:

I paid heed to Mark 7:8

 

[mikeuk]

Excuse me, Sir!

And it is no more true now than
the first time you said it.

You keep photographs yes? Do you keep them as independent works of art or as reminders of the person whose likeness they contain? And would you kiss Jesus were you to meet him? I think I would, and in kissing an image of jesus that is the symbolic act performed. And you must know that, so stop playing games with words. It is making false gods God complains about! Since Jesus is not a false God, neither is kissing an image of him idolatry!

As for mark 7:8 that and 100 other verses I can throw back at you.

Take sola scriptura is a doctrine of men. The bible does not say it anywhere. In fact the bible says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" and sasys hold fast to traditions you are taught "by word of mouth" - Mainly because the new testament did not exist as a coherent entity for the first christians. So sola scriptura is historically false, it is biblically false because the bible does not say it - it says the "church" is the pillar of truth.

And since you hold "the bible contains all necessary truth" as a key necessary truth yet the bible does not say it, you therefore believe in a logical contradiction.

So take your human traditions elsewhere. Sola scriptura was a human tradition and error passed on by Luther and the rest...And .we can all throw the same verses at each other, false prophets and the like. What help is that?

 

[Jeff_56]

Excuse me, Sir!

I was asked to be knelt (the whole congregation) before that "image" was walked around the building we were in.

I have seen several priests kissing their "images"
....
I paid heed to Mark 7:8

you called it "sir" --- that's far better than JESUS does. remember JESUS' WORD to those who

HE faced who PROMOTED an abomination / error/ tradition of men AGAINST GOD'S WORD ---- HE called them not sir, but children of satan.

 

[endtimes]

Take for example baptism. We all mostly baptize one another, its definitely a tradition to baptize right? A good tradition? Is there such a thing? Should we be more or less traditional in our worship, does it matter?

Jesus seemed quite clear about the traditions of men Mk 7:8. Scripture also eludes to holding to tradition 2 Thess 2:15.

Water baptism is NOT a tradition. Peter said it is for the remission of sins...

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


If we are to obey God, we would have to obey the Gospel. The Gospel is the Death, Burial, Resurrection. Jesus said we CANNOT enter heaven unless we are Born Again, born of "water" and of the "Spirit"...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


In Acts 2:38 Peter said to obey the Death, Burial, Resurrection as the means of SALVATION.

Those that deny water baptism as an essential part of the salvation process are denying the Gospel. And, they are in rebellion.



Here is the sum of the Death, Burial, Resurrection...

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


God bless!

 

[secularhermit]

And it is no more true now than
the first time you said it.

You keep photographs yes? Do you keep them as independent works of art or as reminders of the person whose likeness they contain? And would you kiss Jesus were you to meet him? I think I would, and in kissing an image of jesus that is the symbolic act performed. And you must know that, so stop playing games with words. It is making false gods God complains about! Since Jesus is not a false God, neither is kissing an image of him idolatry!

As for mark 7:8 that and 100 other verses I can throw back at you.

Take sola scriptura is a doctrine of men. The bible does not say it anywhere. In fact the bible says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" and says hold fast to traditions you are taught "by word of mouth" - Mainly because the new testament did not exist as a coherent entity for the first christians. So sola scriptura is historically false, it is biblically false because the bible does not say it - it says the "church" is the pillar of truth.

And since you hold "the bible contains all necessary truth" as a key necessary truth yet the bible does not say it, you therefore believe in a logical contradiction.

So take your human traditions elsewhere. Sola scriptura was a human tradition and error passed on by Luther and the rest...And .we can all throw the same verses at each other, false prophets and the like. What help is that?

That´s true sir!

Luther is really hated by that, and for several things more (like these he developed in his 95 theses), althought faithful followers of the RCC publicly deny it, like this:

Why do Catholics hate Martin Luther and anyone who follows his teachings


I´m not sure I would kiss the Lord Jesus. Maybe I´d grab His feet, because those who have seen Him, said they cannot stand His presence and the Bible have spoken of how weak they felt (or confused), like John, when he simply met and angel when receiving Revelations.


I have several pictures and I don´t kiss any of them.

The only one I bent for is my daughter of 9 years and, any time I have to hug her, I placed her over a bench, my same height and level.

By times of Joseph, the husband of Mary, the holy mother of our Lord Jesus, the Scripture was there, and was read and tought in their synagoges.

I haven´t said this: "...since you hold "the bible contains all necessary truth" as a key necessary truth yet the bible does not say it, you therefore believe in a logical contradiction." that you assumed and shared for us but, as a matter of traditions, How come Joseph knew Jesus needed to be hidden from those who were about to kill him? (Matt. 2:22)

Before Joseph received Mary as his wife... How come he knew Mary was still virgin, since no man has touched her, before Jesus was born? (Mat_1:18, "Mary's husband, Joseph, was a good man. He did not want to cause her public disgrace, so he planned to divorce her secretly. But after Joseph thought about this, an angel from the Lord came to him in a dream. The angel said, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to accept Mary to be your wife. The baby inside her is from the Holy Spirit. Mat 1:19-20)

God speaks!

He might have used men to write, but He is not mute to talk when He wants.

 

[secularhermit]

you called it "sir" --- that's far better than JESUS does. remember JESUS' WORD to those who

HE faced who PROMOTED an abomination / error/ tradition of men AGAINST GOD'S WORD ---- HE called them not sir, but children of satan.

I´m not any better (neither worst) for calling him, Sir (Squire)

CC rules (Rules - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums) ask me to be polite (2. No conduct that is offensive or counterproductive to fellowship.) and, as long as I live, I need the same salvation he needs.

 

[Jackson123]

Tradition must not oppose the bible.

We go to church use a shoes, it is tradition and not oppose the bible.

Believe in purgatory, it is tradition and it is oppose the bible.

 

[SAVAS]

Ah! Gotcha. Been a while since I could go to church, so I forget how drill-like it can get. I knew I was missing something.

No worries. The range of different worship is interesting to me.

 

[Jeff_56]

I´m not any better (neither worst) for calling him, Sir (Squire)

CC rules (Rules - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums) ask me to be polite (2. No conduct that is offensive or counterproductive to fellowship.) and, as long as I live, I need the same salvation he needs.

whether better or worse for calling him sir i don't know.

yes, we all need the same salvation, in yahshua hamashiach, by SHEER GRACE! SHEER GRACE SHEER GRACE ! yes.....

the need for SHEER GRACE is unquestioned, over all.

the need to avoid or come out of the heresy is likewise, unconditional - necessary for life in JESUS.....

 

[SAVAS]

And it is no more true now than
the first time you said it.

You keep photographs yes? Do you keep them as independent works of art or as reminders of the person whose likeness they contain? And would you kiss Jesus were you to meet him? I think I would, and in kissing an image of jesus that is the symbolic act performed. And you must know that, so stop playing games with words. It is making false gods God complains about! Since Jesus is not a false God, neither is kissing an image of him idolatry!

As for mark 7:8 that and 100 other verses I can throw back at you.

Take sola scriptura is a doctrine of men. The bible does not say it anywhere. In fact the bible says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" and sasys hold fast to traditions you are taught "by word of mouth" - Mainly because the new testament did not exist as a coherent entity for the first christians. So sola scriptura is historically false, it is biblically false because the bible does not say it - it says the "church" is the pillar of truth.

And since you hold "the bible contains all necessary truth" as a key necessary truth yet the bible does not say it, you therefore believe in a logical contradiction.

So take your human traditions elsewhere. Sola scriptura was a human tradition and error passed on by Luther and the rest...And .we can all throw the same verses at each other, false prophets and the like. What help is that?

Good points here...

 

[secularhermit]

I wish we had the same chance to talk to them, outside but, the Lord does.

 

[Galahad]

Peter was always telling folks to rise up and walk

That is hilarious.

I guess you can say Peter knew what it meant to walk. He even walked on water!

 

[SAVAS]

One aspect seemingly not addressed in the above, is the meaning of "tradition"

Strongs concordance clearly states that "paradosis" means " a handing down" - when Paul refers to "tradition" he is not just referring to established ritual, the implication of most of the posts above - but the fundamental mechanism by which faith was passed on from the apostles.

Many modern christian denominations seem to have historical amnesia, the presumption that Jesus handed a bible as the basis for the faith.

He did not. He gave us apostles, nowhere did he say "write this" he said "do this" as the new covenant, and few of the apostles wrote anything we have today.

Indeed early christianity handed on "tradition" the faith "by word of mouth and letter" as Paul states. The new testament was some centuries in the making, indeed books were hand written VERY expensive, and the scripture was used in liturgy, not as the prime vehicle for christians to learn their faith.

Only the advent of the printing press, and the wages of modern society increasing has allowed "ordinary people" to own a bible and study it , which is a comparatively recent phenomenon. And only at that time did the battle cry of the reformation "sola scriptura" become even possible.

For that reason it is not surprising that the bible itself says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" NOT the bible. The essential handing on of faith, by liturgy and word of mouth, the point is the MEANING of scripture was passed on as well as the substance, the Canon decided because it was consistent with the understood meaning of scripture. Many books rejected because they did not line up with the belief set of the councils. Clearly inspired decisions, since the bible used today was decided way back then in those councils..

So tradition actually means "handing down" the basis of the faith, not just the gospels , but also the meaning.

That is why it is important to study what the early christians thought it meant, because for example from Polycarp, Ireanaus, Justin Martyr and so on all believed in the "real presence in the eucharist" None of them in millenia said it was just "spiritual" or "symbolic". They all refer to flesh and blood, with reverence.

So tradition is context in which to understand the bible - the handing down of meaning not just words.

Without tradition, and the (biblically and logically unsupportable) dogma of "sola scriptura" people are free to decide endless combinations of different interpretations, which is the reason protestantism has fragmented into 10000 pieces. Luther despaired of this monster he created at the end of his life, saying every milkmaid now claimed the right to their own doctrine and interpretation. He opened Pandoras box, which became impossible to close.

So tradition is the answer to the questions of faith. What did the apostles think it meant - not just what it says. And that needs reading in the context of history. Why were the disciples at capernaum so upset they all left? because jewish tradition said that eating flesh and blood was wrong, and Jesus refused to say "its OK guys, it is only a symbol, an allegory" - he simply asked Peter whether he would go too?

So tradition is needed for understanding scripture.









.

Thank you. Great perspective. You Orthodox then?

 

[SAVAS]

Excuse me, Sir!

I was asked to be knelt (the whole congregation) before that "image" was walked around the building we were in.

I have seen several priests kissing their "images"

and, after that, they asked people to do the same or to be knelt, according to their traditions and you said "they did not worship idols"

Jewish traditionalists do the same:

I paid heed to Mark 7:8

Here's some traditions I'm talking about. So, looks RC, kissing (venerating) some things here.Kissing things at first was very different in my eyes. Venerating a cross, a baby Jesus, icons etc. Ive actually kissed the cross around my neck after an experience, was that idolatry?

 

[Galahad]

And it is no more true now than
the first time you said it.

You keep photographs yes? Do you keep them as independent works of art or as reminders of the person whose likeness they contain? And would you kiss Jesus were you to meet him? I think I would, and in kissing an image of jesus that is the symbolic act performed. And you must know that, so stop playing games with words. It is making false gods God complains about! Since Jesus is not a false God, neither is kissing an image of him idolatry!

As for mark 7:8 that and 100 other verses I can throw back at you.

Take sola scriptura is a doctrine of men. The bible does not say it anywhere. In fact the bible says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" and sasys hold fast to traditions you are taught "by word of mouth" - Mainly because the new testament did not exist as a coherent entity for the first christians. So sola scriptura is historically false, it is biblically false because the bible does not say it - it says the "church" is the pillar of truth.

And since you hold "the bible contains all necessary truth" as a key necessary truth yet the bible does not say it, you therefore believe in a logical contradiction.

So take your human traditions elsewhere. Sola scriptura was a human tradition and error passed on by Luther and the rest...And .we can all throw the same verses at each other, false prophets and the like. What help is that?

mikeuk!
We meet again. I'll let the past alone.

Give one good reason why I should believe any teaching of Catholicism that is not taught in the inspired word of God.
I ain't going to just take a person's word. You've got to produce some confirmation that parallels the Supreme, high grade quality as that found in the scriptures. You can't just make an appeal: History. History. History.

I mean, the scriptures are credible. For instance, (and I won't go into all the details) the empty tomb and all the facts in connection with it confirm that Jesus was raised. Then there's the fulfillment of OT prophecy by Jesus all recorded for us. And the dynamic account among those things of Saul of Tarsus. These are just a smidgen of the over abundant evidence that confirms the inspiration of the Bible.

A list of things either condemned or not mentioned in the Bible:
Universal bishop
Mariology
Priest to confess to
Earthly religious father
Cardinals (People cardinals. Not the birds. Nor the baseball team. The Catholic cardinals with the red caps. Man!)
Archdiocese
Purgatory
Nuns
Vatican
The sign of the cross with the hand. First raise hand up north to forehead, then lower hand south to belly area, then either east or west across chest area. What is that?
Ash Wednesday First time I saw that on someone's forehead and knew what it was about, it shown as a sign of self-glorification. Nobody cares about ash on your forehead. If it's that important and significant: Get it tattooed.
Mary the mother of God (Blasphemous. Imagine Mary introducing Jesus to other Jews, "This is God, my son." Absurd. Pathetic. Asinine. Mickey Mouse. Not even up to preschool level. Outlandish. Imagine Mary introducing herself, "I'm God's mother." Foolish.)

And you claim the Catholic church is the pillar of truth! The Catholic church looks nothing like the New Testament church.

The true church, the actual church is the pillar and ground of truth. But the church does not create truth. It teaches, manifests the revealed truth.

You overextend the illustration and produce contradictions.

 

[Jeff_56]

Here's some traditions I'm talking about. So, looks RC, kissing (venerating) some things here.Kissing things at first was very different in my eyes. Venerating a cross, a baby Jesus, icons etc. Ive actually kissed the cross around my neck after an experience, was that idolatry?

most likely , yes (in more ways than one.... for instance, just having it.... then kissing it too! ICK! )

 

[secularhermit]

Here's some traditions I'm talking about. So, looks RC, kissing (venerating) some things here.Kissing things at first was very different in my eyes. Venerating a cross, a baby Jesus, icons etc. Ive actually kissed the cross around my neck after an experience, was that idolatry?

That´s up to you, sir!

I also have mine (a Franciscan Tau cross) and I don´t kiss it.

 

[Galahad]

Excuse me, Sir!

I was asked to be knelt (the whole congregation) before that "image" was walked around the building we were in.

I have seen several priests kissing their "images"

and, after that, they asked people to do the same or to be knelt, according to their traditions and you said "they did not worship idols"

Jewish traditionalists do the same:

I paid heed to Mark 7:8

Sick. Disgusting. Idolatry. Nothing else. They adore and revere those images. Those images are idols to those men.

Those men of Catholicism in their religious garb. Those men believe, as do millions of others, that they themselves represent Jesus and the authority of Jesus. That's what they believe.

Yes, they are acting in that capacity - officials -and they kiss the image.

Catholicism is full of idolatry. That's one reason for it's popularity around the world. Idolatry has always magnetized people.

Yes, it appeals to the flesh.

Mormons have the same thing going for them as well. Magnificent temples. Secret services for its male leaders.

You've all just gone carnal.

KNOCK IT OFF.

 

[secularhermit]

Sick. Disgusting. Idolatry. Nothing else. They adore and revere those images. Those images are idols to those men.

Those men of Catholicism in their religious garb. Those men believe, as do millions of others, that they themselves represent Jesus and the authority of Jesus. That's what they believe.

Yes, they are acting in that capacity - officials -and they kiss the image.

Catholicism is full of idolatry. That's one reason for it's popularity around the world. Idolatry has always magnetized people.

Yes, it appeals to the flesh.

Mormons have the same thing going for them as well. Magnificent temples. Secret services for its male leaders.

You've all just gone carnal.

KNOCK IT OFF.

Agreed on!

Except that I tried to be "balance" by showing Jewish pictures also.

And if it was so easy to kick it off or knock it off, there would no be need for several denominations.

 

[Galahad]

I don't know what you mean by "And if it was so easy to kick it off or knock it off, there would no be need for several denominations" but God wants it to stop. It is wrong. It's not a complicated thing. Idolatry is a sin.