Traditions of Men
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Denominations and sects divisions of Christ. These allowed to cut up Jesus into different parts serve the purpose of God in full filling the Word of God as these will be allowed to form the apostate whore foretold in Rev 17 . just as those Jewish divisions of Jesus's Day were there. Pharisees, Sadducee s etc. They were used of God to fulfill His Word in being the Source of Israels rejection of Her Messiah. God is Sovereign. Even over the wicked and the powers of darkness. He will use the wicked to fulfill His Will. Many do not understand His Control and Sovereign Hand over all. Man gets in the way. Steps up to the podium like Al Haig did and claims. ". I'm in control here". God Himself laughs at that! Lolz. .
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M
The same old list, the same old misunderstandings. All addressed repeatedly then, someone repeats the same list, so what is the point in repeating the answers? They are there if you look for them.
So on the overriding point you make " nothing like the early church", questioning the role of bishop, yet the early church writings were bishops writings, so tradition proves you wrong on the first point.
On the last point you bold so it seems important to you, Elizabeth honours mary as " mother of lord" , so why should we not do the same?
etc etc etc
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D
I think what we have there is Mary on steriods.
She was a vessel to Him (who he called woman).
He was made of a woman made under the law.
I suppose we could stand around and be blessing the paps and womb of her who bore him and pretty much make it about her, but I just dont see Jesus encouraging any of that.
She was a vessel to Him (who he called woman).
He was made of a woman made under the law.
I suppose we could stand around and be blessing the paps and womb of her who bore him and pretty much make it about her, but I just dont see Jesus encouraging any of that.
G
Unable to answer. Failed again. Unresponsive.
Unsupported claims. Amounts to hogwash. Gibberish.
"So on the overriding point you make " nothing like the early church", questioning the role of bishop, yet the early church writings were bishops writings, so tradition proves you wrong on the first point."
Where's the evidence?
Truth proves you and all Catholic doctrine wrong.
You've never supported your claims with any reference to any source. Never. You know it won't stand up to the test.
Sad. So very sad.
Unsupported claims. Amounts to hogwash. Gibberish.
"So on the overriding point you make " nothing like the early church", questioning the role of bishop, yet the early church writings were bishops writings, so tradition proves you wrong on the first point."
Where's the evidence?
Truth proves you and all Catholic doctrine wrong.
You've never supported your claims with any reference to any source. Never. You know it won't stand up to the test.
Sad. So very sad.
M
My comment on Mary is a biblical quote, so you call the scripture hogwash and gibberish?
There in the writings of the early church from the first century on - they were bishops who wrote them, bishops that convened the councils that decided on heresy and your canon of scripture!
So if you disregard scripture AND the tradition of councils, then are you a Christian at all?
Study the history of the early church.
There in the writings of the early church from the first century on - they were bishops who wrote them, bishops that convened the councils that decided on heresy and your canon of scripture!
So if you disregard scripture AND the tradition of councils, then are you a Christian at all?
Study the history of the early church.
M
There is no need for denominations, they were a bad invention of the reformation when scripture got divorced from history and tradition with the provably false dogma of " sola scriptura", so from then everyone felt empowered to have their own interpretation of doctrine, and if you did not like any of them, you made up your own to conform to populist demands.
Net result? Protestantism has been in continuous fracture ever since , to tens of thousands of denominations, which fracture again and again, indeed many do not have standard doctrine, so individual congregations in nominally the same denomination have massively varied beliefs, not to mention the tens of thousands of non denominationals who reject all of those, because in losing tradition and authority they lost the compass and drift apart.
But there is the thing, go back to history and see the early church was liturgical, sacramental, had bishops and clergy, believed in real presence and so on, essentially unchanged to RCC as it is now, the only one that has kept solid sexual moral theology, and strong pro life, whilst the others change to the clamour for conforming to what their congregation prefer. None of these Protestant denominations can claim continuity back to the early church.
The hallmark of the true church is a large body of Christians to hold consistent doctrine over millenia. There is only one candidate.
Net result? Protestantism has been in continuous fracture ever since , to tens of thousands of denominations, which fracture again and again, indeed many do not have standard doctrine, so individual congregations in nominally the same denomination have massively varied beliefs, not to mention the tens of thousands of non denominationals who reject all of those, because in losing tradition and authority they lost the compass and drift apart.
But there is the thing, go back to history and see the early church was liturgical, sacramental, had bishops and clergy, believed in real presence and so on, essentially unchanged to RCC as it is now, the only one that has kept solid sexual moral theology, and strong pro life, whilst the others change to the clamour for conforming to what their congregation prefer. None of these Protestant denominations can claim continuity back to the early church.
The hallmark of the true church is a large body of Christians to hold consistent doctrine over millenia. There is only one candidate.
G
Fifty-fifty bar.
Yours: "On the last point you bold so it seems important to you, Elizabeth honours mary as " mother of lord" , so why should we not do the same?"
I would guess that depends on what you intend by honor. Mariology?
Also, a question in the negative does not support a claim or practice.
This "Study the history of the early church" proves what?
Again no evidence given in your post.
Yours: "On the last point you bold so it seems important to you, Elizabeth honours mary as " mother of lord" , so why should we not do the same?"
I would guess that depends on what you intend by honor. Mariology?
Also, a question in the negative does not support a claim or practice.
This "Study the history of the early church" proves what?
Again no evidence given in your post.
M
Oh for goodness sake READ THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH! Clement, Polycarp, Irenaus, Justin Martyr, etc etc etc...the list of BISHOPS who wrote is endless, read the hsitory right up to the councils that decided the new testament you now use!
The first of these guys were TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES, and handed the truth on (ie tradition)
Here is what they had to say.
“Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.”
—St. Clement of Rome
Letter to the Corinthians, 44:1-2, c. AD 80
"You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
—St. Ignatius of Antioch
Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107
These guys were taught by the apostles. I say again, study history and tradition.
Protestantism fractures, because in the false human doctrine of sola scriptura, has thrown tradition and history out, despite being urged by St Paul to stay true to them. So protestants now believe what they will. Any interpretation will seemingly do which is why there are now 10000 or more denominations and infinite variety of doctrine even within some of them.
But the early church was liturgical, sacramental, had bishops who decided on heresy and doctrine, believed in real presence and the rest. etc etc - which most protestants have thrown out, because they threw away history and tradition.
The catholic church honors mary, it does not worship her, despite the number of times the false hood is repeated.
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see!
The first of these guys were TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES, and handed the truth on (ie tradition)
Here is what they had to say.
“Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.”
—St. Clement of Rome
Letter to the Corinthians, 44:1-2, c. AD 80
"You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
—St. Ignatius of Antioch
Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107
These guys were taught by the apostles. I say again, study history and tradition.
Protestantism fractures, because in the false human doctrine of sola scriptura, has thrown tradition and history out, despite being urged by St Paul to stay true to them. So protestants now believe what they will. Any interpretation will seemingly do which is why there are now 10000 or more denominations and infinite variety of doctrine even within some of them.
But the early church was liturgical, sacramental, had bishops who decided on heresy and doctrine, believed in real presence and the rest. etc etc - which most protestants have thrown out, because they threw away history and tradition.
The catholic church honors mary, it does not worship her, despite the number of times the false hood is repeated.
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see!
Oh, man! If you are talking in behalf of the RCC I would talk in behalf of Protestantism. Those who actually think they're better and "one body" have proven to be divided for centuries too, like Franciscan, Benedictines and so on.
I do NOT need a priest since Jesus is LORD and PRIEST of the human kind.
The RCC insists they received the keys of heaven and of hell by the hands of Peter (and his " papal " leadership) but I decided to believe in Jesus' teachings, like matt 23.
And Iḿ willing to die for my beliefs, not for other's beliefs.
When Jesus spoke of those who were sleeping together, while one was taken UP.
When he said two ppl would be working in the field, and one was taken, and the other was left, He told "me" salvation does not belong to a religious or social group, but to His will.
I can't understand a liturgical God. I cannot understand a sacramental God neither the need of the clergy, who sinned, like me.
They are my brothers (if God sees me as His son) and the RCC I knew has changed, because I spent 6 years watching my school days, when I was a child. In fact, the RCC is cloning some ideas from the Protestants, such as those who are named "Charismatics".
PS
The ecumenical movement wants us to be Catholics...
I don't need another place, than my house and my body.
I do NOT need a priest since Jesus is LORD and PRIEST of the human kind.
The RCC insists they received the keys of heaven and of hell by the hands of Peter (and his " papal " leadership) but I decided to believe in Jesus' teachings, like matt 23.
And Iḿ willing to die for my beliefs, not for other's beliefs.
When Jesus spoke of those who were sleeping together, while one was taken UP.
When he said two ppl would be working in the field, and one was taken, and the other was left, He told "me" salvation does not belong to a religious or social group, but to His will.
I can't understand a liturgical God. I cannot understand a sacramental God neither the need of the clergy, who sinned, like me.
They are my brothers (if God sees me as His son) and the RCC I knew has changed, because I spent 6 years watching my school days, when I was a child. In fact, the RCC is cloning some ideas from the Protestants, such as those who are named "Charismatics".
PS
The ecumenical movement wants us to be Catholics...
I don't need another place, than my house and my body.
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since so many of the ecf are so totally in error, well..... better not to trust tradition from ecf then.... (not to forget that
Scripture says test everything - do not trust the ecf..... they don't pass the test (most of them; a few might) ) ... so test everything....
the rcc has failed EVERY TEST OF GOD'S WORD.
Scripture says test everything - do not trust the ecf..... they don't pass the test (most of them; a few might) ) ... so test everything....
the rcc has failed EVERY TEST OF GOD'S WORD.
G
Yours "The same old list, the same old misunderstandings. All addressed repeatedly then, someone repeats the same list, so what is the point in repeating the answers? They are there if you look for them." Remember!
Just stay on topic. How you feel about the unending list of glaring differences between the Bible and the RCC is not the my concern.
Concerning
“Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.”
1. Was Clement and the others inspired by God as were the apostles?
2. What exactly are you trying to support or prove with Clement's words and those of the others?
Here's the Bible:
* Luke wrote "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20.28.
* The apostle Paul wrote "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons." Philippians 1.1.
* The apostle Peter wrote "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed." 1 Peter 5.1
Concerning
"Study history and tradition"
I have, I do, and I will. Here's a fraction of RCC traditions:
Universal bishop
Mariology
Priest to confess to
Earthly religious father
Cardinals (People cardinals. Not the birds. Nor the baseball team. The Catholic cardinals with the red caps. Man!)
Archdiocese
Purgatory
Nuns
Vatican
The sign of the cross with the hand. First raise hand up north to forehead, then lower hand south to belly area, then either east or west across chest area. What is that?
Ash Wednesday First time I saw that on someone's forehead and knew what it was about, it shown as a sign of self-glorification. Nobody cares about ash on your forehead. If it's that important and significant: Get it tattooed.
Mary the mother of God
You then change your mind. First you tell me to study history and tradition then when I present some traditions, you respond with: "The same old list, the same old misunderstandings. All addressed repeatedly then, someone repeats the same list, so what is the point in repeating the answers? They are there if you look for them.
present traditions."
I don't recall every presenting that list to you or any other person of CC.
Concerning
"But the early church was liturgical, sacramental, had bishops who decided on heresy and doctrine, believed in real presence and the rest. etc etc - which most protestants have thrown out, because they threw away history and tradition."
Well, that's what were discussing. Traditions of uninspired men vs. the teachings of the Inspired word of God.
Concerning
"Protestantism fractures, because in the false human doctrine of sola scriptura, has thrown tradition and history out, despite being urged by St Paul to stay true to them. So protestants now believe what they will. Any interpretation will seemingly do which is why there are now 10000 or more denominations and infinite variety of doctrine even within some of them."
The existence of denominations does not prove the uninspired teachings of the RCC to be correct.
But since you introduce such things, I will post contradictions in RCC history and traditions.
Concerning
"The catholic church honors mary, it does not worship her, despite the number of times the false hood is repeated."
You have yet to define what you mean by honor.
In the mean time, the words of Giacomo Paolo Giovanni Battista della Chiesa
"With her suffering and dying Son, Mary endured suffering and almost death. She gave up her mother's rights over her Son to procure the salvation of mankind, and, to appease the divine justice, she, as much as she could, immolated her Son, so that one can truly affirm that together with Christ she has redeemed the human race."
And you can call it what you want. Fact is, bowing before an image is idolatry. I know Catholics bow before image of Mary.
The NT does not teach a fraction of all that the RCC teaches about Mary.
Just stay on topic. How you feel about the unending list of glaring differences between the Bible and the RCC is not the my concern.
Concerning
“Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.”
1. Was Clement and the others inspired by God as were the apostles?
2. What exactly are you trying to support or prove with Clement's words and those of the others?
Here's the Bible:
* Luke wrote "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20.28.
* The apostle Paul wrote "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons." Philippians 1.1.
* The apostle Peter wrote "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed." 1 Peter 5.1
Concerning
"Study history and tradition"
I have, I do, and I will. Here's a fraction of RCC traditions:
Universal bishop
Mariology
Priest to confess to
Earthly religious father
Cardinals (People cardinals. Not the birds. Nor the baseball team. The Catholic cardinals with the red caps. Man!)
Archdiocese
Purgatory
Nuns
Vatican
The sign of the cross with the hand. First raise hand up north to forehead, then lower hand south to belly area, then either east or west across chest area. What is that?
Ash Wednesday First time I saw that on someone's forehead and knew what it was about, it shown as a sign of self-glorification. Nobody cares about ash on your forehead. If it's that important and significant: Get it tattooed.
Mary the mother of God
You then change your mind. First you tell me to study history and tradition then when I present some traditions, you respond with: "The same old list, the same old misunderstandings. All addressed repeatedly then, someone repeats the same list, so what is the point in repeating the answers? They are there if you look for them.
present traditions."
I don't recall every presenting that list to you or any other person of CC.
Concerning
"But the early church was liturgical, sacramental, had bishops who decided on heresy and doctrine, believed in real presence and the rest. etc etc - which most protestants have thrown out, because they threw away history and tradition."
Well, that's what were discussing. Traditions of uninspired men vs. the teachings of the Inspired word of God.
Concerning
"Protestantism fractures, because in the false human doctrine of sola scriptura, has thrown tradition and history out, despite being urged by St Paul to stay true to them. So protestants now believe what they will. Any interpretation will seemingly do which is why there are now 10000 or more denominations and infinite variety of doctrine even within some of them."
The existence of denominations does not prove the uninspired teachings of the RCC to be correct.
But since you introduce such things, I will post contradictions in RCC history and traditions.
Concerning
"The catholic church honors mary, it does not worship her, despite the number of times the false hood is repeated."
You have yet to define what you mean by honor.
In the mean time, the words of Giacomo Paolo Giovanni Battista della Chiesa
"With her suffering and dying Son, Mary endured suffering and almost death. She gave up her mother's rights over her Son to procure the salvation of mankind, and, to appease the divine justice, she, as much as she could, immolated her Son, so that one can truly affirm that together with Christ she has redeemed the human race."
And you can call it what you want. Fact is, bowing before an image is idolatry. I know Catholics bow before image of Mary.
The NT does not teach a fraction of all that the RCC teaches about Mary.
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G
mikeuk,
Concerning
Council of Trent
That council says
"If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema."
Council of Trent. Again, uninspired. They are mere men. And of no concern to me. I'm a CHRISTIAN. I am NOT Catholic. I can read my English Bible. I believe its SIXTY-SIX books are inspired by God. I can read and study it anytime. Need no clearance from any one.
Is there still the RCC tradition that bans commoners from reading and studying the Bible themselves?
Concerning
"There are none so blind as those who do not want to see!"
The man who runs the RCC is very much shielded from the general populace. He is blind to the truth by all the favors and comforts of a kingly lifestyle funded by masses who've been fooled, deceived, and tricked. Indulgencies. Purgatory. Them traditions of the RCC! You can have them.
Concerning
Council of Trent
That council says
"If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema."
Council of Trent. Again, uninspired. They are mere men. And of no concern to me. I'm a CHRISTIAN. I am NOT Catholic. I can read my English Bible. I believe its SIXTY-SIX books are inspired by God. I can read and study it anytime. Need no clearance from any one.
Is there still the RCC tradition that bans commoners from reading and studying the Bible themselves?
Concerning
"There are none so blind as those who do not want to see!"
The man who runs the RCC is very much shielded from the general populace. He is blind to the truth by all the favors and comforts of a kingly lifestyle funded by masses who've been fooled, deceived, and tricked. Indulgencies. Purgatory. Them traditions of the RCC! You can have them.
M
Desired Heaven,
It isn't all about her. Christ comes first, of course.
In Luke 1, didn't the angel Gabriel visit Mary and declare she is "highly favored by God"? (Luke 1)
Catholics do not worship Mary as God, we just honor her ask for her prayers.
1 Cor 6 indicates the saints are greater than angels. If Gabriel had a share of God's knowledge, so does Mary
I am not certain you would tell Jesus his mother was only a vessel.
It isn't all about her. Christ comes first, of course.
In Luke 1, didn't the angel Gabriel visit Mary and declare she is "highly favored by God"? (Luke 1)
Catholics do not worship Mary as God, we just honor her ask for her prayers.
1 Cor 6 indicates the saints are greater than angels. If Gabriel had a share of God's knowledge, so does Mary
I am not certain you would tell Jesus his mother was only a vessel.