Tree of "Good and Evil". What is it really?

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jaybird88

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#61
No, I am not talking about projection. I am talking about biblical representationalism. That is not the same thing. You are suggesting the tree in the garden possessed human attributes. It did not. God is using the imagery of the tree to describe attributes of Pharaoh in Ezek 31:1-18. God alone assigns meaning to biblical symbols. You are reversing the symbols. The tree is the symbol, not Pharaoh. Perhaps we should take a look at the Tree of "Good and Evil" in Gen and see what we can determine about that tree from that text.
I dont think he is suggesting the tree is human. The tree is symbolic of something. You said yourself the tree is the symbol and russ said these (trees) were beyond men.
Whatever it is that the trees represents is what pharaoh is envious of wanting to become. So what does the pharaohs heart desire most?
 
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Tintin

Guest
#62
I dont think he is suggesting the tree is human. The tree is symbolic of something. You said yourself the tree is the symbol and russ said these (trees) were beyond men.
Whatever it is that the trees represents is what pharaoh is envious of wanting to become. So what does the pharaohs heart desire most?
Pharaoh wanted to be the Axis Mundi of the world. These Bible passages speak to his greed and lust for power. The Axis Mundi was believed to be the center of the universe, the beginning of everything. In short, Pharaoh wanted to do what Satan wanted to do - dethrone God and take His place. He wanted to be God. That's no small thing.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#63
I dont think he is suggesting the tree is human. The tree is symbolic of something. You said yourself the tree is the symbol and russ said these (trees) were beyond men.
Whatever it is that the trees represents is what pharaoh is envious of wanting to become. So what does the pharaohs heart desire most?
Here is his OP

Ezekiel 31 Give us a glimpse into what was happening in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were not eating an apple as we were taught. The tree was not a green leafy tree under which they sat. The scripture many times uses metaphors to explain simple truths. I think these metaphors come about, because the real meaning has been lost over time. I'm sure the book of Genesis was given by oral tradition for years until written down.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#64
Pharaoh wanted to be the Axis Mundi of the world. These Bible passages speak to his greed and lust for power. The Axis Mundi was believed to be the center of the universe, the beginning of everything. In short, Pharaoh wanted to do what Satan wanted to do - dethrone God and take His place. He wanted to be God. That's no small thing.
i agree about the pharaohs ambitions. but also the garden and the trees are clearly connected to all this and i think there is a deeper meaning than pharoh wanting to rule the heavens.

Here is his OP

Ezekiel 31 Give us a glimpse into what was happening in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were not eating an apple as we were taught. The tree was not a green leafy tree under which they sat. The scripture many times uses metaphors to explain simple truths. I think these metaphors come about, because the real meaning has been lost over time. I'm sure the book of Genesis was given by oral tradition for years until written down.
i think he is suggesting, and i agree, that the tree is a symbol for something else. thats what i see
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#65
Russell, I have read the entire exchange, and I have a few comments...

If, as you espouse, the trees in Eden were actually beings, why did God appoint cherubim (beings) and a flaming sword to guard the way to a "being" clearly identified as the Tree of Life?

Ezk 31 doesn't specify that the Assyria "tree" was in Eden, only that the trees of Eden didn't compare with it.

God is clearly speaking about Assyria in vvs 3 - 18a. Pharaoh is only brought back in as a comparison in the last verse.

The tone in several of your posts is self-righteous. You are espousing what is at best a minority position, an understanding of a passage of scripture which is new to many and not well-accepted. A large dose of humility is in order.

For the sake of discussion, I'll grant that it is possible that the Lord has revealed something to you. Is it therefore necessary to club the rest of us with that? There is some fruit of the Spirit missing. I would be inclined to reject your interpretation simply because it comes with an attitude I find abrasive. If you are, in fact, speaking the truth, speak it in love.

Decrying the understanding of others, even those who attack your position, is an ad-hominem attack, commonly indicative of a weak position or an unsanctified heart. Perhaps try learning how to present ideas in a way which will have them received and chewed on, rather than spat out. You aren't Jesus, and you aren't an anointed prophet of old any more than anyone on this forum is. Don't act like you are.

That all said, your ideas are interesting, and that is as much as I'll say.

Blessings,
Dino
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#66
i agree about the pharaohs ambitions. but also the garden and the trees are clearly connected to all this and i think there is a deeper meaning than pharoh wanting to rule the heavens.



i think he is suggesting, and i agree, that the tree is a symbol for something else. thats what i see
Yes, the tree in Gen 3 is most certainly a symbol. That does not mean the tree was not an actual tree. The tree is a symbol of a particular class of knowledge that was forbidden to man. It represents an unseen reality and presented a choice between two epistemologies.
 
Jun 5, 2015
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#67
i agree about the pharaohs ambitions. but also the garden and the trees are clearly connected to all this and i think there is a deeper meaning than pharoh wanting to rule the heavens.



i think he is suggesting, and i agree, that the tree is a symbol for something else. thats what i see
Yes! The "Tree" is symbolic of a spirit being, most likely a fallen angel who is controlling Pharaoh. And it is this being who was present in the garden. Your getting the idea.
 
Jun 5, 2015
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#68
Since you are so convinced of this perhaps you would not mind engaging me in a little exegesis of Gen 3 and we will see just how sound your theory is...that is if you are not afraid.
So far you can't even deal with simple things let alone deeper spiritual things. It would be like the Pharisee trying to discuss spiritual things with Jesus. It wouldn't be fair to you.
 
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#69
I dont think he is suggesting the tree is human. The tree is symbolic of something. You said yourself the tree is the symbol and russ said these (trees) were beyond men.
Whatever it is that the trees represents is what pharaoh is envious of wanting to become. So what does the pharaohs heart desire most?
There are two worlds being discussed by the prophet. A spiritual world where the beings are as old as the beginning of creation and the then present physical world of men. The prophet is attacking both worlds in the same breath. He refers to the spirit beings as "Trees" who were present in the garden of Eden. He refers to the men by their monarch titles [Pharaoh]. The prophet is giving us a picture which is not narrated in Genesis. When prophets see things they vacillate between spirit and earthly realms. They may even switch time periods from present, future to past all in the same vision. This is what is taking place in Ezekiel. The prophet is seeing something taking place in the garden [there is envy among the spiritual being] and then popping back to the present and speak about the men envying. Unless you understand there are two worlds being spoken about, you cannot understand the text.
 
Jun 5, 2015
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#70
Forgot to add: And also at the end of the text the prophet fore tells that both spirit beings and men will be thrown into hell.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#71
There are two worlds being discussed by the prophet. A spiritual world where the beings are as old as the beginning of creation and the then present physical world of men. The prophet is attacking both worlds in the same breath. He refers to the spirit beings as "Trees" who were present in the garden of Eden. He refers to the men by their monarch titles [Pharaoh]. The prophet is giving us a picture which is not narrated in Genesis. When prophets see things they vacillate between spirit and earthly realms. They may even switch time periods from present, future to past all in the same vision. This is what is taking place in Ezekiel. The prophet is seeing something taking place in the garden [there is envy among the spiritual being] and then popping back to the present and speak about the men envying. Unless you understand there are two worlds being spoken about, you cannot understand the text.
i think you are onto something here. it makes me think of all the parables Jesus taught, they always had lessons on the surface but deeper meanings that were harder to see. they were hidden until we were ready and prepared to see them.
 
Jun 5, 2015
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#72
what pharaoh is envious of wanting to become. So what does the pharaohs heart desire most?
The man Pharaoh in the text is seeking recognition like the Assyrian king. The prophet is saying "[man] Pharaoh who are you like?, your like the [man] Assyrian king who was great. In the text the Pharaoh is seeking to be like the Assyrian king, but God says He brought him down. The same fate is prophesied against Pharaoh. Now the puppet masters behind the scene are identified and they have the same ambitions of of greatness, but they too will be brought down to the grave with their puppets.
 
Jun 5, 2015
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#73
i think you are onto something here. it makes me think of all the parables Jesus taught, they always had lessons on the surface but deeper meanings that were harder to see. they were hidden until we were ready and prepared to see them.
On target! Bullseye! Surface and hidden meanings! Good catch about Jesus' parables, excellent comparison.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#74
The man Pharaoh in the text is seeking recognition like the Assyrian king. The prophet is saying "[man] Pharaoh who are you like?, your like the [man] Assyrian king who was great. In the text the Pharaoh is seeking to be like the Assyrian king, but God says He brought him down. The same fate is prophesied against Pharaoh. Now the puppet masters behind the scene are identified and they have the same ambitions of of greatness, but they too will be brought down to the grave with their puppets.
did the assyrians descend from canaan?

On target! Bullseye! Surface and hidden meanings! Good catch about Jesus' parables, excellent comparison.
thanks russ. i love it when you do the You are correct!, Bullseye! kinda makes me feel like im on a game show and i just won a trip to Fiji.
 
Jun 5, 2015
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#75
did the assyrians descend from canaan?
I'm not sure. How do you think Canaan fits into this? You had mentioned about Canaanite gods at one point. These "Tree", spiritual beings, could be the ground work for these gods. During Adam's time we have mention of angels having children with human women. There is much in scripture we don't know about, but we have small hints here and there.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#76
Ezekiel 31 Give us a glimpse into what was happening in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were not eating an apple as we were taught. The tree was not a green leafy tree under which they sat. The scripture many times uses metaphors to explain simple truths. I think these metaphors come about, because the real meaning has been lost over time. I'm sure the book of Genesis was given by oral tradition for years until written down.

Ezek 31:1-18...., the word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and his hordes: ​​​​​​“‘Who are you like in your greatness? ​​​Consider Assyria, a cedar in Lebanon, ​​​​​​with beautiful branches, like a forest giving shade, ​​​​​​and extremely tall; ​​​​​​its top reached into the clouds. ​​​​​​​The water made it grow; ​​​​​​underground springs made it grow tall. ​​​​​​Rivers flowed all around the place it was planted, ​​​​​​while smaller channels watered all the trees of the field. ​​​​​​​Therefore it grew taller than all the trees of the field; ​​​​​​its boughs grew large and its branches grew long, ​​​​​​because of the plentiful water in its shoots. ​​​​​​​All the birds of the sky nested in its boughs; ​​​​​​under its branches all the beasts of the field gave birth, ​​​​​​in its shade all the great nations lived. ​​​​​​​It was beautiful in its loftiness, in the length of its branches; ​​​​​​for its roots went down deep to plentiful waters. ​​​​​​​The cedars in the garden of God could not eclipse it, ​​​​​​nor could the fir trees match its boughs; ​​​​​​the plane trees were as nothing compared to its branches; ​​​​​​no tree in the garden of God could rival its beauty. ​​​​​​​I made it beautiful with its many branches; ​​​​​​all the trees of Eden, in the garden of God, envied it.
“‘Therefore this is what the sovereign LORD says: Because it was tall in stature, and its top reached into the clouds, and it was proud of its height,
I gave it over to the leader of the nations. He has judged it thoroughly, as its sinfulness deserves. I have thrown it out. Foreigners from the most terrifying nations have cut it down and left it to lie there on the mountains. In all the valleys its branches have fallen, and its boughs lie broken in the ravines of the land. All the peoples of the land have departed from its shade and left it. On its ruins all the birds of the sky will live, and all the wild animals will walk on its branches. For this reason no watered trees will grow so tall; their tops will not reach into the clouds, nor will the well-watered ones grow that high. For all of them have been appointed to die in the lower parts of the earth; they will be among mere mortals, with those who descend to the pit. “‘This is what the sovereign LORD says: On the day it went down to Sheol I caused observers to lament. I covered it with the deep and held back its rivers; its plentiful water was restrained. I clothed Lebanon in black for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I threw it down to Sheol, along with those who descend to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and the best of Lebanon, all that were well-watered, were comforted in the earth below. Those who lived in its shade, its allies among the nations, also went down with it to Sheol, to those killed by the sword.Which of the trees of Eden was like you in majesty and loftiness? You will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the lower parts of the earth; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword! This is what will happen to Pharaoh and all his hordes, declares the sovereign LORD.’”

The trees spoken of go back to the Garden of Eden, which means they were thousands of years old. These were not men because men are mentioned in the text. These were beyond men and existed in the Garden of Eden. When Adam was told to tend to the trees of the Garden, he was tending to teachers who bore fruit [teachings]. When Eve brought Adam fruit to eat, it was teachings. The trees are angelic beings who are over countries and existed from the time of the Garden of Eden.
This is the kind of teaching that gives Protestants a bad name. The writer is simply using vivid illustrations and hyperbole in order to get over his point of the glory that these kings claimed for themselves. The trees in Eden did not really envy the king of Assyria. It is hyperbole..

And I cannot even accuse you of over-literalism. Although it is partly, so making trees in Eden into angels is hardly literalism. It is fantasy.

There were two important trees in the garden. One renewed life when it was eaten, the other enabled man to experience good and evil. By the very fact that it was forbidden it made evil possible. It was the ACT of eating that made the participants experience evil. It was not something in the fruit.. Neither of them had magical qualities. They enabled man to partake of life or death.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#77
The tree of "Good and Evil" is an actual tree in the Garden of Eden. It also had actual real fruit that Adam and Eve were forbidden in eating. They ate of the fruit of that tree that God commanded them not to eat of and sin and death had passed on upon every man, woman, and child today (Whereby they would need a Savior to save them from their sins). This Savior is Jesus Christ. This story is a part of the gospel message. Sin and separation from God entered the world thru the first Adam and it is the thru the second Adam (Jesus Christ) that righteousness and reconciliation to God would then enter the world. Yes, the LORD still saved his saints in the Old Testament, but they looked to the Savior to one day take away all their sins for good instead of having them temporarily covered under the Aaronic priesthood. However, Jesus is of a more superior priesthood and order, though. Now, believers can go directly to Him for redemption. For Jesus is both our sacrifice (substitute) for our sins and He is also our Heavenly High Priest, too.
 
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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#78
So far you can't even deal with simple things let alone deeper spiritual things. It would be like the Pharisee trying to discuss spiritual things with Jesus. It wouldn't be fair to you.
LOL I'll risk the embarrassment.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#79
This is the kind of teaching that gives Protestants a bad name. The writer is simply using vivid illustrations and hyperbole in order to get over his point of the glory that these kings claimed for themselves. The trees in Eden did not really envy the king of Assyria. It is hyperbole..

And I cannot even accuse you of over-literalism. Although it is partly, so making trees in Eden into angels is hardly literalism. It is fantasy.

There were two important trees in the garden. One renewed life when it was eaten, the other enabled man to experience good and evil. By the very fact that it was forbidden it made evil possible. It was the ACT of eating that made the participants experience evil. It was not something in the fruit.. Neither of them had magical qualities. They enabled man to partake of life or death.
If you read Ezekiel 1-3, what you say combined with what RussellJBenigno is saying makes more sense.

Its a very interesting thought.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#80
I'm not sure. How do you think Canaan fits into this? You had mentioned about Canaanite gods at one point. These "Tree", spiritual beings, could be the ground work for these gods. During Adam's time we have mention of angels having children with human women. There is much in scripture we don't know about, but we have small hints here and there.
Canaan was cursed, I was curious is Asshur was of this branch and cursed. But Asshur came from Shem, the same branch as the Jews and Jesus.

Asshur started out as a good guy, when the tower of babel was built asshur would not participate, but eventually those people fell. The Assyrians belief system may have been a little different than Canaan and Babylon. They believed Asshur was a god, their chief god, they worshiped the sun and moon but they had a high degree of nature worship making them a bit different.

Assyria would also be the ones that absorb the northern kingdom of Israel after the kingdom divided.

So thats what I have learned after reading I bit this morning.
 
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