TRIBULATION LIE
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P
LOL you are a bloodthirsty creature, revelling in wars. Be careful that you are not seen as a murderer.
The martyred saints we see in 6.9 have mainly ALREADY been martyred and are now reigning with Christ. See chapter 7. The sixth seal IS the second coming of Christ. So you will have to settle your bloodlust somewhere else
When the sixth seal is broken and the mountains are removed it issues in the second coming of Christ,
.
The world will face its judgment. But I won't be gloating.
The martyred saints we see in 6.9 have mainly ALREADY been martyred and are now reigning with Christ. See chapter 7. The sixth seal IS the second coming of Christ. So you will have to settle your bloodlust somewhere else
When the sixth seal is broken and the mountains are removed it issues in the second coming of Christ,
.
The world will face its judgment. But I won't be gloating.
So,how are they now before the throne??
You need to re read that,because you left out the fact that they were told " ..till your number is COMPLETE".
They are Complete DURING THE GT.
Yet another dynamic only fitting pretrib.
Pretrib rules. It is the only harmonious position.
P
How many times have we heard the nonsense about this 1830,Darby,girls dream,church fathers,postrib diatribe balony?
Pure lunacy.
They NEVER SAW Israel become a nation.
The catholic websites have the IDENTICAL anti pretrib talking points.
Those pretribs you guys say never existed were Heretics AGAINST CATHOLIC FALSE DOCTRINE!
FF to today. What group carries this exact same mess forward??
Postribs.
Pure lunacy.
They NEVER SAW Israel become a nation.
The catholic websites have the IDENTICAL anti pretrib talking points.
Those pretribs you guys say never existed were Heretics AGAINST CATHOLIC FALSE DOCTRINE!
FF to today. What group carries this exact same mess forward??
Postribs.
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. [SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Is there anyone who doubts that in the above passage Jesus is weeping over Jerusalem because He knows that in ~40 years not one stone will be left of the entire city (not just the temple)? The event underlined above happened in 70 AD.
Who was John the Baptist speaking to here in Mat 3?
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
In the below, which generation was Jesus discussing, some generation thousands of years into the future, or the one that would crucify Him? Did total and utter destruction come upon the generation of Jesus day some 40 years later or did they get a free pass? Ever single one of the priests who passed judgment against Jesus died, many were publicly killed by the zealots. They were killed by their own countrymen.
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Jonah obvious warned Nineveh to repent or they would face the wrath of God. Now look how much time God gave them to repent. Jesus is telling them that they will face God's wrath.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”
They had 40 days. Jerusalem got 40 years to repent and they didn't.
No nation ever endured as much pain and suffering as did the Jews of 66-70 AD. An estimated 1.2 million were slaughtered, the rest were carried away captive. The whole time between the Cross and their end, they persecuted and killed His disciples not just in Jerusalem but where they lived outside of Jerusalem.
Friends, the Great Tribulation happened in 70 AD. It's over!!
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. [SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Is there anyone who doubts that in the above passage Jesus is weeping over Jerusalem because He knows that in ~40 years not one stone will be left of the entire city (not just the temple)? The event underlined above happened in 70 AD.
Who was John the Baptist speaking to here in Mat 3?
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
In the below, which generation was Jesus discussing, some generation thousands of years into the future, or the one that would crucify Him? Did total and utter destruction come upon the generation of Jesus day some 40 years later or did they get a free pass? Ever single one of the priests who passed judgment against Jesus died, many were publicly killed by the zealots. They were killed by their own countrymen.
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Jonah obvious warned Nineveh to repent or they would face the wrath of God. Now look how much time God gave them to repent. Jesus is telling them that they will face God's wrath.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”
They had 40 days. Jerusalem got 40 years to repent and they didn't.
No nation ever endured as much pain and suffering as did the Jews of 66-70 AD. An estimated 1.2 million were slaughtered, the rest were carried away captive. The whole time between the Cross and their end, they persecuted and killed His disciples not just in Jerusalem but where they lived outside of Jerusalem.
Friends, the Great Tribulation happened in 70 AD. It's over!!
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-If we carefully look at Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and history, I think the case can be made that Jesus was describing TWO events that are separated by around 2000 years. One was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70ad, and the other yet to come, is the end of the age, when Christ returns. Also, some of the things that happened in 70ad may have something similar to it happen at the end of the age. For example, it is obvious that a great tribulation occurred for the Jewish nation around 70ad, and that when Jesus told the believers to flee for their lives to the mountains, he was referring to what happened in 70ad. However I believe that Jesus was also referring to a world wide great tribulation that will occur just before His return. It is not without precedent that God would place two events in the same prophetic message and have them separated by many years.
Hi Dino246
Here is something to consider regarding the Rapture Doctrine (pre-trib or otherwise):
Ez. 13:17-22 Vs. 20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
(pillows = H3704/H3680 to cover, conceal, hide; hunt = H6679 tsuwd a prim. root; to lie alongside (i.e. in wait)
fly = H6524 parach to spread, spec. to fly (as extending the wings)....:--make fly)
The false prophetesses were concealing, hiding the truth of God's word from the princes, rulers, in Jerusalem, through their false teachings. They were being blinded to the attempts by God to save them from error, and impending judgment for their idolatry. These prophetesses were causing the rulers & leaders, in Jerusalem, to look to them and their false gods for salvation, and not to God.
To rapture out from off this earth means to fly up to heaven, fly away to safety. Isn't that what the pre-trib. rapture preachers preach about? And yet, God says in Ez. 13:8 "I am against you"; and vs. 20 "I am against your pillows" (coverings, concealments over His word)
"Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hand of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life." Ez. 13:22
In Matt. 13:24-30, Jesus tells the Parable of the Tares, but then in 13:36-43, in private conversation with His disciples, He gives the explanation to the Parable of the Tares. Notice that in the parable, itself,
#1) the servants of the householder ask (Vs. 28) "Wilt thou then that we go and gather them (the tares) up?"
#2) and the householder says (Vs. 29) "Nay, lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."
#3) (Vs. 30) "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
The first taken are those taken by deception into the false religious system and are deceived into worshiping Anti-Christ (Satan) when he comes posing as our Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ the true Messiah.
Compare what Jesus says in His explanation of the parable:
#1) (Vs. 40) "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."
#2) (Vs. 41) "The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Vs. 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
#3) (Vs. 43) "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
The first taken are taken in deception by Anti-Christ (Satan), and then are taken in Judgment by Christ when He returns.
Compare Mark 13:5 "And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any man deceive you: Vs. 6 For many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many." (or saying "I am a Christian preacher/teacher")
Mark 13:14 "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it (he) ought not.....(this is at the 6th Trumpet, when Satan is kicked out of Heaven, and descends to earth posing as Christ)
Vs. 17 "Woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" Compare Vs. 34 "For the son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants...."
Well, if those who believe on Christ's name are known as the "bride", and/or the "wife" of Christ, and he is away on a long journey but when He returns to find His bride/wife pregnant, and nursing along another child, what is He supposed to think?
What would any man think in that situation? He hasn't been home for awhile, and she's gotten pregnant, and nursing a child, that's not His! This means that those believers who allow themselves to be deceived by any other gospel (2 John 1:9-11) than the one presented in God's word, have been worshipping and praying to, and taking their communion with (the daily oblation) another "Christ", a false Christ, the Anti- (instead of) Christ, = with Satan, and not with our true Lord & Savior Messiah!
Those taken first, by wanting to "fly away", to rapture out of here, to escape the tribulation are taken by deception by Satan.
There are 2 christs the true Jesus Christ, the Living only begotten Son of the Living God, and then there's the false Christ, fake Satan, who comes here posing as the Lord at the 6th trumpet. (Nowhere in the Bible is the Rapture preached, quite the opposite!)
Christ explained it in the Parable of the Tares, the words are His Words, and His interpretation.
Here is something to consider regarding the Rapture Doctrine (pre-trib or otherwise):
Ez. 13:17-22 Vs. 20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
(pillows = H3704/H3680 to cover, conceal, hide; hunt = H6679 tsuwd a prim. root; to lie alongside (i.e. in wait)
fly = H6524 parach to spread, spec. to fly (as extending the wings)....:--make fly)
The false prophetesses were concealing, hiding the truth of God's word from the princes, rulers, in Jerusalem, through their false teachings. They were being blinded to the attempts by God to save them from error, and impending judgment for their idolatry. These prophetesses were causing the rulers & leaders, in Jerusalem, to look to them and their false gods for salvation, and not to God.
To rapture out from off this earth means to fly up to heaven, fly away to safety. Isn't that what the pre-trib. rapture preachers preach about? And yet, God says in Ez. 13:8 "I am against you"; and vs. 20 "I am against your pillows" (coverings, concealments over His word)
"Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hand of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life." Ez. 13:22
In Matt. 13:24-30, Jesus tells the Parable of the Tares, but then in 13:36-43, in private conversation with His disciples, He gives the explanation to the Parable of the Tares. Notice that in the parable, itself,
#1) the servants of the householder ask (Vs. 28) "Wilt thou then that we go and gather them (the tares) up?"
#2) and the householder says (Vs. 29) "Nay, lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them."
#3) (Vs. 30) "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
The first taken are those taken by deception into the false religious system and are deceived into worshiping Anti-Christ (Satan) when he comes posing as our Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ the true Messiah.
Compare what Jesus says in His explanation of the parable:
#1) (Vs. 40) "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."
#2) (Vs. 41) "The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Vs. 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
#3) (Vs. 43) "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
The first taken are taken in deception by Anti-Christ (Satan), and then are taken in Judgment by Christ when He returns.
Compare Mark 13:5 "And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any man deceive you: Vs. 6 For many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many." (or saying "I am a Christian preacher/teacher")
Mark 13:14 "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it (he) ought not.....(this is at the 6th Trumpet, when Satan is kicked out of Heaven, and descends to earth posing as Christ)
Vs. 17 "Woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" Compare Vs. 34 "For the son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants...."
Well, if those who believe on Christ's name are known as the "bride", and/or the "wife" of Christ, and he is away on a long journey but when He returns to find His bride/wife pregnant, and nursing along another child, what is He supposed to think?
What would any man think in that situation? He hasn't been home for awhile, and she's gotten pregnant, and nursing a child, that's not His! This means that those believers who allow themselves to be deceived by any other gospel (2 John 1:9-11) than the one presented in God's word, have been worshipping and praying to, and taking their communion with (the daily oblation) another "Christ", a false Christ, the Anti- (instead of) Christ, = with Satan, and not with our true Lord & Savior Messiah!
Those taken first, by wanting to "fly away", to rapture out of here, to escape the tribulation are taken by deception by Satan.
There are 2 christs the true Jesus Christ, the Living only begotten Son of the Living God, and then there's the false Christ, fake Satan, who comes here posing as the Lord at the 6th trumpet. (Nowhere in the Bible is the Rapture preached, quite the opposite!)
Christ explained it in the Parable of the Tares, the words are His Words, and His interpretation.
G
Not only those two events - but - the time between them also...
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus refers to only one "great tribulation" ( Matthew 24:21 ). In Matthew 24:29, He refers to that same "great tribulation" with the phrase "the tribulation of those days"...
Matthew 24:7-8 is referring to things occurring in the space of time between 70 A.D. and some point in the future ( only, closer to this end of it ) - and, increasing like the "birth pangs"...
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus refers to only one "great tribulation" ( Matthew 24:21 ). In Matthew 24:29, He refers to that same "great tribulation" with the phrase "the tribulation of those days"...
Matthew 24:7-8 is referring to things occurring in the space of time between 70 A.D. and some point in the future ( only, closer to this end of it ) - and, increasing like the "birth pangs"...
Ahwatuki
This will be the third time I have attempted to reply to this posting. The previous two attempts have mysteriously disappeared. I thought it must be me doing something wrong on the first occasion but even I cant be so incompetent as
to lose it twice. If this one fails it will confirm my suspicions.
TRUMPETS
There are seven Trumpets mentioned in Revelation. The seventh is the last therefore the clue is in the description. No other trumpet is mentioned in the book after the seventh. If you carry on reading the passage you will meet up with the elders who speak about the judgement and rewards of the saints and Prophets. In 1 Corinthians Paul mentions the last Trumpet and an Archangel in connection with the rapture. If there is no connection with this and the seventh trumpet then please show me exactly which Trumpet Paul considers to be the last one. You are right in saying there are many Trumpets mentioned in the Bible but how many are called the last and connected with Archangels?
MY BRAIN
I cant speak for other peoples brains but when mine asimulates plain English it takes a phrase like first resurrection to
mean just that. The only reason I can think of that would require slicing the word up in phases like verbal salami would be to explain the presence of great crowds of special tribulation saints who have been killed in that tribulation. There are at least two problems with these. Firstly how do they get into heaven? They would need to be resurrected to receive glorified bodies. So another rapture apart from the original 'first' is required. In that case Christ has to perform another rapture. In order to explain how the Trib Saints get to heaven multiple raptures are created. The simplest explanation is that the rapture happens at the end of the tribulation and coincides with the second coming when all the righteous meet the lord in the air as he descends to earth.
GODS WRATH
As you so often repeat God has not appointed us to suffer his wrath. However there is a great difference between SUFFERING wrath and being present when that wrath occurs. The story of the Plagues of Egypt are a type of the tribulation. many of the plagues are repeated in Revelation but on a Global scale. The Israelites were still in Egypt when the Plagues struck the Egyptians but did not suffer any of them. They were safe in Goshem. They were not taken from Egypt until the plagues ended. Another type of the tribulation is found in Daniel. He and his companions were put in the furnace but were unharmed by it.
SATAN
Of course the whole point of the last days and the second coming is for God to take back control of the earth and defeat Satan.
MYSTERIES
I know full well that the word Mystery is found in other places including Revelation as is Trumpet. I was just suggesting that Paul was applying mystery to this particular reference taking into account the subject he was discussing. How often in scripture does Mystery and Trumpet occur in the same subject and context?
REVELATION
One of the causes of so much controversy over the contents is the failure to realise that the book is not entirely in Chronological order. It is written in the order that john saw the visions. Parenthesis are used to explain and expand
on passages and details described and the same events are repeated from different view points which can be confusing
if everything is treated as consecutive events.
This will be the third time I have attempted to reply to this posting. The previous two attempts have mysteriously disappeared. I thought it must be me doing something wrong on the first occasion but even I cant be so incompetent as
to lose it twice. If this one fails it will confirm my suspicions.
TRUMPETS
There are seven Trumpets mentioned in Revelation. The seventh is the last therefore the clue is in the description. No other trumpet is mentioned in the book after the seventh. If you carry on reading the passage you will meet up with the elders who speak about the judgement and rewards of the saints and Prophets. In 1 Corinthians Paul mentions the last Trumpet and an Archangel in connection with the rapture. If there is no connection with this and the seventh trumpet then please show me exactly which Trumpet Paul considers to be the last one. You are right in saying there are many Trumpets mentioned in the Bible but how many are called the last and connected with Archangels?
MY BRAIN
I cant speak for other peoples brains but when mine asimulates plain English it takes a phrase like first resurrection to
mean just that. The only reason I can think of that would require slicing the word up in phases like verbal salami would be to explain the presence of great crowds of special tribulation saints who have been killed in that tribulation. There are at least two problems with these. Firstly how do they get into heaven? They would need to be resurrected to receive glorified bodies. So another rapture apart from the original 'first' is required. In that case Christ has to perform another rapture. In order to explain how the Trib Saints get to heaven multiple raptures are created. The simplest explanation is that the rapture happens at the end of the tribulation and coincides with the second coming when all the righteous meet the lord in the air as he descends to earth.
GODS WRATH
As you so often repeat God has not appointed us to suffer his wrath. However there is a great difference between SUFFERING wrath and being present when that wrath occurs. The story of the Plagues of Egypt are a type of the tribulation. many of the plagues are repeated in Revelation but on a Global scale. The Israelites were still in Egypt when the Plagues struck the Egyptians but did not suffer any of them. They were safe in Goshem. They were not taken from Egypt until the plagues ended. Another type of the tribulation is found in Daniel. He and his companions were put in the furnace but were unharmed by it.
SATAN
Of course the whole point of the last days and the second coming is for God to take back control of the earth and defeat Satan.
MYSTERIES
I know full well that the word Mystery is found in other places including Revelation as is Trumpet. I was just suggesting that Paul was applying mystery to this particular reference taking into account the subject he was discussing. How often in scripture does Mystery and Trumpet occur in the same subject and context?
REVELATION
One of the causes of so much controversy over the contents is the failure to realise that the book is not entirely in Chronological order. It is written in the order that john saw the visions. Parenthesis are used to explain and expand
on passages and details described and the same events are repeated from different view points which can be confusing
if everything is treated as consecutive events.
What makes you think that the "last trumpet" that Paul mentions in 1 Cor.15:52 has to be the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments? As I stated previously, you are applying these two as being the same trumpet because of the word "trumpet." By doing so, you are ignoring the rest of the exegetical information regarding the church in order to make your claim.
You are omitting the fact that there is nothing anywhere in the context that describes the gathering of the church. These are plagues of wrath and there are no blessing with them.
You are also ignoring the fact that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath. That said, by having the church gathered at the 7th trumpet, you would be putting the church through 2/3's of God's wrath. When you have this information, it needs to be taken into consideration in order to arrive at a right conclusion. You can't just invent apologetics in order to counter the scriptures and reasoning that I am giving and that because they are sound.
I continue to say it, those who believe that the gathering takes place at the 7th trumpet or after the 7th bowl, they do not understand the severity of God's coming wrath. If your interpretation was correct, there would hardly be any living believers to be changed and caught up.
"First resurrection" does not mean "only resurrection."
There are stages to the first resurrection:
Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection
The church at his appearing
The 144,000/male child
The two witnesses
The Great Tribulation saints
All of these stages take place at different times, but all fall under the banner of first resurrection. Jesus initiated the first resurrection and it is still in operation and we're next!
And this is exactly the problem. You and others don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. The church could not be present and not be affected by these coming plagues of wrath. This is the day of the Lord that the prophets spoke of. It will be unprecedented! It will be nothing like the world has ever experienced. Believe me! I have been studying end-time events for over 40 years and I know what I am talking about. Your talking about plagues in Egypt, when these coming plagues are going to be world-wide and much, much more severe.
You are correct in that, John does see things before they happen, to name one, the vision of the great tribulation saints, before they have even gone through the great tribulation. But, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are all in chronological order just as they are listed. Everything else is informational, e.g. the two witnesses who prophecy for 1260 days, which is the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. As well as the woman/Israel's to of being cared for out in the desert for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. But as I said, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in exactly the order that God has put them in.
The scriptures below kills what you wrote above:
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom.5:9)
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes.5:9)
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes.1:10)
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." (Rev.3:10)
======================================
So, whether it is God's coming wrath upon this earth or the wrath at the great white throne judgment, the church will not suffer any wrath at all and that because Christ already suffered God's wrath on every believers behalf. By your belief and teaching, you are not truly recognizing that.
My advice to you, is to do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the scripture that refer to "the day of the Lord" and then ask yourself the question, is it more logical for the Lord to gather his church prior to those events of wrath or to send those, who have been reconciled to God through faith and have been credited with righteousness, to send them through those events of wrath? And for what purpose? Who do scripture's say that the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is directed at? Below are some random examples:
At the 1st trumpet a third of the earth and trees are burned up. What is not said within the 1st trumpet is how many fatalities will result? You can't have a third of the earth and trees being burned up without there being many fatalities.
At the 5th trumpet, an angel comes down and unlocks the Abyss, letting out those demonic beings who are told to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months with the stings like that of a scorpion. Regarding this, scripture states that the only ones exempt from this plague will be the 144,000, which means that if the church were here on the earth, they too would suffer from this plague of wrath. To say that they would be protected would be by pure conjecture. Even the great tribulation saints are exposed to God's wrath.
At the 6th trumpet, four bound angels (fallen) are released and gather a demonic army of 200 million for the purpose of killing a third of whatever is left of the inhabitants of the earth by fire, smoke and sulfur. Are you getting the picture here? We have a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth killed at the 4th seal, then we have a third of the inhabitants who are left killed and that doesn't include the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor from the bowl judgments.
At the 4th bowl judgment, the angel pours his bowl out on the sun, the result being that the inhabitants of the earth are scorched with intense heat from the sun. God would literally have to put each individual believer under a force field to protect them from this plague of wrath.
I really wish that you and others could see what God has revealed to me all of these years regarding end-time events. I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, which is why I continue to contend for the truth regarding these matters.
You are omitting the fact that there is nothing anywhere in the context that describes the gathering of the church. These are plagues of wrath and there are no blessing with them.
You are also ignoring the fact that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath. That said, by having the church gathered at the 7th trumpet, you would be putting the church through 2/3's of God's wrath. When you have this information, it needs to be taken into consideration in order to arrive at a right conclusion. You can't just invent apologetics in order to counter the scriptures and reasoning that I am giving and that because they are sound.
I continue to say it, those who believe that the gathering takes place at the 7th trumpet or after the 7th bowl, they do not understand the severity of God's coming wrath. If your interpretation was correct, there would hardly be any living believers to be changed and caught up.
"First resurrection" does not mean "only resurrection."
There are stages to the first resurrection:
Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection
The church at his appearing
The 144,000/male child
The two witnesses
The Great Tribulation saints
All of these stages take place at different times, but all fall under the banner of first resurrection. Jesus initiated the first resurrection and it is still in operation and we're next!
And this is exactly the problem. You and others don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. The church could not be present and not be affected by these coming plagues of wrath. This is the day of the Lord that the prophets spoke of. It will be unprecedented! It will be nothing like the world has ever experienced. Believe me! I have been studying end-time events for over 40 years and I know what I am talking about. Your talking about plagues in Egypt, when these coming plagues are going to be world-wide and much, much more severe.
You are correct in that, John does see things before they happen, to name one, the vision of the great tribulation saints, before they have even gone through the great tribulation. But, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are all in chronological order just as they are listed. Everything else is informational, e.g. the two witnesses who prophecy for 1260 days, which is the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. As well as the woman/Israel's to of being cared for out in the desert for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. But as I said, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in exactly the order that God has put them in.
The scriptures below kills what you wrote above:
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom.5:9)
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes.5:9)
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes.1:10)
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." (Rev.3:10)
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So, whether it is God's coming wrath upon this earth or the wrath at the great white throne judgment, the church will not suffer any wrath at all and that because Christ already suffered God's wrath on every believers behalf. By your belief and teaching, you are not truly recognizing that.
My advice to you, is to do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the scripture that refer to "the day of the Lord" and then ask yourself the question, is it more logical for the Lord to gather his church prior to those events of wrath or to send those, who have been reconciled to God through faith and have been credited with righteousness, to send them through those events of wrath? And for what purpose? Who do scripture's say that the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, is directed at? Below are some random examples:
At the 1st trumpet a third of the earth and trees are burned up. What is not said within the 1st trumpet is how many fatalities will result? You can't have a third of the earth and trees being burned up without there being many fatalities.
At the 5th trumpet, an angel comes down and unlocks the Abyss, letting out those demonic beings who are told to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months with the stings like that of a scorpion. Regarding this, scripture states that the only ones exempt from this plague will be the 144,000, which means that if the church were here on the earth, they too would suffer from this plague of wrath. To say that they would be protected would be by pure conjecture. Even the great tribulation saints are exposed to God's wrath.
At the 6th trumpet, four bound angels (fallen) are released and gather a demonic army of 200 million for the purpose of killing a third of whatever is left of the inhabitants of the earth by fire, smoke and sulfur. Are you getting the picture here? We have a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth killed at the 4th seal, then we have a third of the inhabitants who are left killed and that doesn't include the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor from the bowl judgments.
At the 4th bowl judgment, the angel pours his bowl out on the sun, the result being that the inhabitants of the earth are scorched with intense heat from the sun. God would literally have to put each individual believer under a force field to protect them from this plague of wrath.
I really wish that you and others could see what God has revealed to me all of these years regarding end-time events. I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, which is why I continue to contend for the truth regarding these matters.
P
Why bring up the fiery furnace of Daniel.
They were delivers unharmed back to the king (antichrist)
But during the GT the saints are overcome and beheaded,then delivered to heaven.
It's like God went out of his way to have us in truth.
Pretrib rules the debate....actually anyone with knowledge of the bible.
They were delivers unharmed back to the king (antichrist)
But during the GT the saints are overcome and beheaded,then delivered to heaven.
It's like God went out of his way to have us in truth.
Pretrib rules the debate....actually anyone with knowledge of the bible.
I see a HUGE contradiction here...
What about the people who have "found God by faith alone" - who have "given their heart and life to Christ" - who are "true born-again Christians" -- but, do not believe there will be a 'pre-trib' rapture? ( Those are the people I am talking about. )
Think about these people in a context that is a few seconds before the rapture... Now - in a few seconds, what will happen?
Will they be raptured because Jesus knows that they are His...?
Or, will Jesus say:
I came to get those who are mine -- but, because - even though you believed in the Father - and in Me - and, in My Second Coming also - and, were looking for it -- well, because you did not understand "God's timing" quite well enough - you get to stay here and "go through hell" -- even though you are part of the 'Bride' that I came to "receive unto me"...
"Sorry --- I am not buying whatever it is that you are trying to sell..."
What about the people who have "found God by faith alone" - who have "given their heart and life to Christ" - who are "true born-again Christians" -- but, do not believe there will be a 'pre-trib' rapture? ( Those are the people I am talking about. )
Think about these people in a context that is a few seconds before the rapture... Now - in a few seconds, what will happen?
Will they be raptured because Jesus knows that they are His...?
Or, will Jesus say:
I came to get those who are mine -- but, because - even though you believed in the Father - and in Me - and, in My Second Coming also - and, were looking for it -- well, because you did not understand "God's timing" quite well enough - you get to stay here and "go through hell" -- even though you are part of the 'Bride' that I came to "receive unto me"...
"Sorry --- I am not buying whatever it is that you are trying to sell..."
Like the ten virgins,both sets(5) believed in Jesus. It just so happens that one set (5 virgins) were evidently preoccupied and forgot to get the oil it would take to watch through the night. While they were gone getting oil, the Lord came and took the others (5 virgins) away with HIM...... When the first (5 virgins) set came back and called out to the Lord, He answered them by saying....Mat 25:12 ..." But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Do you think Preterist are any different... They like the 5 foolish virgins, are not really looking,,ARE YOU? you keep saying that he is not coming back to get the Church (Rapture) allowing God to turn his attention to Israel (another Big big strike against).
Let me ask you a question so that I understand exactly WHY you think Rev. is not relevant to the end times. Please give exact verses,,,Not just your babbling. I do believe that I can counter everything you throw at me. It might just change your mind!!!!
Of course, if you are of the mind of poster, " there is nothing you can say that will change my mind"
While I agree with the first part of your argument, I am not so sure about your second part. Look at how Christ describes the times the world will be in just prior to His Second Coming.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [SUP]27 [/SUP]They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. [SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
It seems clear to me that things are relatively calm. The world is living in sin, "big league" just like in Noah and Lot's day. The text is clear, people are getting married and living it up without a care in the world the minute before Christ is "revealed." The world will be a lot like it is now!!!
Notice that Christ is first revealed from Heaven? As we see in Rev 6, at the 6th seal, people have time to run and hide. However, when Christ actually comes, he comes as fast as lightening. It seems to me that the Wrath (which isn't the great tribulation of 70 AD, a totally different event), is proximate to Christ's revealing/returning.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: [SUP]27 [/SUP]They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. [SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
It seems clear to me that things are relatively calm. The world is living in sin, "big league" just like in Noah and Lot's day. The text is clear, people are getting married and living it up without a care in the world the minute before Christ is "revealed." The world will be a lot like it is now!!!
Notice that Christ is first revealed from Heaven? As we see in Rev 6, at the 6th seal, people have time to run and hide. However, when Christ actually comes, he comes as fast as lightening. It seems to me that the Wrath (which isn't the great tribulation of 70 AD, a totally different event), is proximate to Christ's revealing/returning.
You are obviously set in your way of thinking its a pity that you dont actually follow my replies. An example is suffering wrath. I pointed out the distinct difference between the concept of suffering, being the target of wrath and being present when the wrath happens. If a person was beaten up and you were present at the scene who would be the object of the beating the person being beaten or yourself? I cant put it any simpler than that. I gave the examples of Egypt and Daniel.
I missed a detail in that. The furnace was made seven times hotter. That number again!
Another one is Rahab at Jericho whose scarlet thread saved her from destruction. The thread represented the saving blood of Christ. The story is another symbol of the tribulation. God told Joshua to have seven Priests blowing seven Trumpets march round the City for seven days and on the seventh day they shouted the walls collapsed and they captured and destroyed the City An interesting feature is that they shouted. At 1 Thess 4:16 Paul mentions how the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout at the resurrection/rapture. Are the two events related? They are if you believe that the rapture happens at the second coming as I do.
Its obvious that the world wide tribulation will be worse than these events but God placed these in the Bible to help uis understand the Prophecies.
How do I know that the seventh trumpet is the last in Revelation? Because apart from the above I can count. Each Trumpet is numbered. The numbers stop at seven. So by my power of deduction I consider that to be the last.
You claim that the only people who are exempt from the plague of wrath as you call it are the 144000.
they receive a seal of gods protection in Revelation 7 but in the same chapter it goes on to say that there are
a multitude that no man can number from every nation,tribe,people and tongue dressed in white standing before
the throne. John is told they come out of the great tribulation. In order to COME OUT OF IT YOU HAVE TO BE IN IT.
It says in Rev 14 9-11 that the only only people who are subject to the wrath of God are those who accept the mark of the beast. This great multitude obviously refused it
I missed a detail in that. The furnace was made seven times hotter. That number again!
Another one is Rahab at Jericho whose scarlet thread saved her from destruction. The thread represented the saving blood of Christ. The story is another symbol of the tribulation. God told Joshua to have seven Priests blowing seven Trumpets march round the City for seven days and on the seventh day they shouted the walls collapsed and they captured and destroyed the City An interesting feature is that they shouted. At 1 Thess 4:16 Paul mentions how the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout at the resurrection/rapture. Are the two events related? They are if you believe that the rapture happens at the second coming as I do.
Its obvious that the world wide tribulation will be worse than these events but God placed these in the Bible to help uis understand the Prophecies.
How do I know that the seventh trumpet is the last in Revelation? Because apart from the above I can count. Each Trumpet is numbered. The numbers stop at seven. So by my power of deduction I consider that to be the last.
You claim that the only people who are exempt from the plague of wrath as you call it are the 144000.
they receive a seal of gods protection in Revelation 7 but in the same chapter it goes on to say that there are
a multitude that no man can number from every nation,tribe,people and tongue dressed in white standing before
the throne. John is told they come out of the great tribulation. In order to COME OUT OF IT YOU HAVE TO BE IN IT.
It says in Rev 14 9-11 that the only only people who are subject to the wrath of God are those who accept the mark of the beast. This great multitude obviously refused it
I can agree that the Great Tribulation started in ~70 A.D. - but - how do you explain Matthew 24:29-31 with specific regard to that very same Great Tribulation?
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
It says, "in those days." It doesn't say "and for now on," right? It also says, "nor ever shall be" implying that it will never get this bad again (for His people).
Think of the context. Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, its food was cut off and those who tried to flee were often disemboweled. Conditions inside the city were horrendous. People were starving to death to the point of eating their young. Two tyrants, John and Simon, took over the Temple, killed all the priests and fought each other and the people. They killed tens of thousands of their own people. This was going on before the Temple was destroyed. There were false Christs springing up leading people to their deaths by the thousands. So, the Great Tribulation was this period of intense suffering during the seige of Jerusalem but before the Romans broke through and destroyed the temple.
The Romans caused the desolation of Jerusalem and really all of Israel because most of the people came to Jerusalem for one of the feasts and were trapped inside. Anyone, after much great tribulation (suffering) the Romans finally broke through to the Temple and burned it. We then have the desolation as foretold in Daniel 9 as the Romans went on a remarkable killing spree angry for all the trouble the Jews caused them. They killed tens of thousands by the sword until their arms were too tired to kill anymore. This takes us to Mat 24:29-31 and your question.
In Mat 24:29-31 we see signs in the sky of pending doom coming to the Temple and people before the Romans broke through. Again, if you haven't read Josephus' account, I highly recommend it. Below is an excerpt. Please read as it will answer a lot. I underlined some key portions.
WHILE the holy house was on fire, every thing was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity, but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting. The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire. Nor can one imagine any thing either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamor of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword. The people also that were left above were beaten back upon the enemy, and under a great consternation, and made sad moans at the calamity they were under; the multitude also that was in the city joined in this outcry with those that were upon the hill. And besides, many of those that were worn away by the famine, and their mouths almost closed, when they saw the fire of the holy house, they exerted their utmost strength, and brake out into groans and outcries again: Pera did also return the echo, as well as the mountains round about [the city,] and augmented the force of the entire noise. Yet was the misery itself more terrible than this disorder; for one would have thought that the hill itself, on which the temple stood, was seething hot, as full of fire on every part of it, that the blood was larger in quantity than the fire, and those that were slain more in number than those that slew them; for the ground did no where appear visible, for the dead bodies that lay on it; but the soldiers went over heaps of those bodies, as they ran upon such as fled from them. And now it was that the multitude of the robbers were thrust out [of the inner court of the temple by the Romans,] and had much ado to get into the outward court, and from thence into the city, while the remainder of the populace fled into the cloister of that outer court. As for the priests, some of them plucked up from the holy house the spikes that were upon it, with their bases, which were made of lead, and shot them at the Romans instead of darts. But then as they gained nothing by so doing, and as the fire burst out upon them, they retired to the wall that was eight cubits broad, and there they tarried; yet did two of these of eminence among them, who might have saved themselves by going over to the Romans, or have borne up with courage, and taken their fortune with the others, throw themselves into the fire, and were burnt together with the holy house; their names were Meirus the son of Belgas, and Joseph the son of Daleus. 2. And now the Romans, judging that it was in vain to spare what was round about the holy house, burnt all those places, as also the remains of the cloisters and the gates, two excepted; the one on the east side, and the other on the south; both which, however, they burnt afterward. They also burnt down the treasury chambers, in which was an immense quantity of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods there reposited; and, to speak all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers [to contain such furniture]. The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life. A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.
3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
4. Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square." But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.
Hi Popeye,
I don't believe the Rapture Doctrine at all. Darby and his associates listened to the hallucinatory visions of a deliriously ill girl, named Margaret MacDonald in 1830, and built their rapture doctrine religion on what she thought she saw, and not on what God says in His word, in the bible.
The events of 1948, Israel being restored as a nation state, was future to Darby, I don't know that he would have any foreknowledge to that, or not. Even so, that doesn't matter to me.
Nobody's salvation depends upon whether or not they believe there is a Millennium after the return of Christ, even though the Bible speaks of that 1,000 years in Rev. 20:1-10. The only way that people are saved, is by turning to Christ, confessing to Him, and repenting of their sins, and reforming their lives, turning to Jesus Christ, and believing upon Him, and obeying His commands. That's the only way people are saved. It doesn't matter what they believe in about the "Millenium" that's not the "deal-breaker".
I rely on Christ to give me strength through His word, and through prayer, not on anybody else's "ability". And I've seen the power of His hand more than once in my life, in answer to my prayer.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight." Prov. 3:5-6 God has a way of taking care of those who love Him, according to His will and purpose.
No, I'm not Catholic, I'm not Lutheran, I'm not Presbyterian, I'm not Episcopalian, I'm not Baptist, I'm not Methodist, I'm not Amish, Hutterite, or any other "-ists, -ans, etc., etc.. I read God's word, and the word of Christ as given in the King James Companion Bible, and that's all I read, and if I don't understand it, I take it to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, back to the original Hebrew or Greek to get more clarification. I might take a look at the Commentaries by Henry Matthew, he's quite eloquent, and explanatory. But, otherwise, if God tells me in His word "Don't Do That!", what part of "Don't Do That!" do I not understand? If God says "No!", what part of "No!", do I not understand? Simple as that. What it boils down to, is this: It doesn't matter what you think, or I think, or anybody else thinks, it only matters what God thinks, and says in His word, through His prophets, and through Jesus Christ. That's all that matters.
I don't believe the Rapture Doctrine at all. Darby and his associates listened to the hallucinatory visions of a deliriously ill girl, named Margaret MacDonald in 1830, and built their rapture doctrine religion on what she thought she saw, and not on what God says in His word, in the bible.
The events of 1948, Israel being restored as a nation state, was future to Darby, I don't know that he would have any foreknowledge to that, or not. Even so, that doesn't matter to me.
Nobody's salvation depends upon whether or not they believe there is a Millennium after the return of Christ, even though the Bible speaks of that 1,000 years in Rev. 20:1-10. The only way that people are saved, is by turning to Christ, confessing to Him, and repenting of their sins, and reforming their lives, turning to Jesus Christ, and believing upon Him, and obeying His commands. That's the only way people are saved. It doesn't matter what they believe in about the "Millenium" that's not the "deal-breaker".
I rely on Christ to give me strength through His word, and through prayer, not on anybody else's "ability". And I've seen the power of His hand more than once in my life, in answer to my prayer.
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight." Prov. 3:5-6 God has a way of taking care of those who love Him, according to His will and purpose.
No, I'm not Catholic, I'm not Lutheran, I'm not Presbyterian, I'm not Episcopalian, I'm not Baptist, I'm not Methodist, I'm not Amish, Hutterite, or any other "-ists, -ans, etc., etc.. I read God's word, and the word of Christ as given in the King James Companion Bible, and that's all I read, and if I don't understand it, I take it to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, back to the original Hebrew or Greek to get more clarification. I might take a look at the Commentaries by Henry Matthew, he's quite eloquent, and explanatory. But, otherwise, if God tells me in His word "Don't Do That!", what part of "Don't Do That!" do I not understand? If God says "No!", what part of "No!", do I not understand? Simple as that. What it boils down to, is this: It doesn't matter what you think, or I think, or anybody else thinks, it only matters what God thinks, and says in His word, through His prophets, and through Jesus Christ. That's all that matters.