Trinity or Unity

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 1, 2022
18
9
3
#81
looking at One God who simply works in 3 ways is quite simple to understand. but God to me is still Triune.
I'm going to start using that explanation when I'm asked about this. Just think of it as God working in 3 different ways. It's not that the three are different individuals, rather they have three different purposes.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
#82
If you have not already "located" these truths in the Bible, then you have failed to be a serious student of the Word of God.

And the Holy Spirit reveals these truths only to those who humble themselves and believe God regardless of their own humanistic thinking. Neither the Trinity nor the deity of Christ can be grasped by the natural unregenerate person.
So there's no place in the Bible that makes those specific statements is what you are telling me.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,247
1,104
113
#83
...Maybe trying to understand this is like trying to understand the virgin birth???!!! I know I'm not very astute when it comes to these matters but like Mary in Lk 2:19 I will ponder these things in my heart.
And as Jesus said in the following parallel accounts those who seek will surely find. Praise God!

Matt 7:7-11
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,247
1,104
113
#84
If you have not already "located" these truths in the Bible, then you have failed to be a serious student of the Word of God.

And the Holy Spirit reveals these truths only to those who humble themselves and believe God regardless of their own humanistic thinking. Neither the Trinity nor the deity of Christ can be grasped by the natural unregenerate person.
1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

2 Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
#85
The biggest reason I asked about if those statements could be found in the Bible knowing from the 4th Century Greek to the 16th Century Latin to English Textus Receptus there's a difference between 251 Verses and 1000+ extra words.

Many times I read the KJV that looks clearly like this one type of definition and then I read the 4th Century Greek and the Verses don't even line up.

So I wonder if those statements that are definitely from the KJV is where this man made idealism comes from.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#86
In John 10:34-36 jesus himself is quoting Psalm 82. Do not twist the word of God. We were created in the image and likeness of God. We are suppose to be his representative on Earth in physical form except sin was introduced into our lineage
Jesus begotten means he had a beginning. He is not eternal (no start, no end). However, he did not inherit sin so he was totally and completely aligned with the Will and purpose of God - hence the title Son of God or God himself.
Okay well here is the verses:

(John 10:34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
(John 10:35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

First thing-- gods is small g.. indicating Jesus isn't talking about the kind of infinite, all powerful, all knowing etc God type.

Second thing--- the meaning of 'gods' when looking at the strong's concordance.. is related to magistrates and judges.

Last thing---
Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psa 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

This is about judges and magistrates. It follows that kind of meaning.. of believers set to be judging wickedness as appointed by God.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#87
No Jesus is NOT the Father. So here is what needs to be understood, while believing that there is only one God --the triune Godhead. There are three divine distinct persons, who are all God (not gods).

God the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit
God the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit
God the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son
They may not be the same.. but they are not seperate. Jesus didn't come down as the Holy Spirit to empower at Pentecost.. but Jesus did speak to the churches in Revelation as well as the Spirit. Also in Revelation.. Jesus is referred to as the same terms as the Father.. the alpha and omega.

This is where while it isn't modalism.. it is still the one being, God... not 3 seperate beings.

But really.. I'm splitting hairs because it gets to a point where it's just arguing semantics.. because I believe as you do that Jesus is God.. the Holy Spirit is God.. the Father is God.. co-equal.. co-eternal .. co-existing.

I think we are only similar pages on most things.. eg OSAS.. cessation of sign gifts.. and the trinity.. but slightly different ways of looking at them.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#88
No Jesus is NOT the Father. So here is what needs to be understood, while believing that there is only one God --the triune Godhead. There are three divine distinct persons, who are all God (not gods).

God the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit
God the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit
God the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son
Biblical verses
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#89
If you have not already "located" these truths in the Bible, then you have failed to be a serious student of the Word of God.

And the Holy Spirit reveals these truths only to those who humble themselves and believe God regardless of their own humanistic thinking. Neither the Trinity nor the deity of Christ can be grasped by the natural unregenerate person.
Ergo, no Biblical verses.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#90
I don't really see anywhere in the bible of men becoming God. In heaven we will be without sin.. but the bible doesn't call us God.

Begotten.. also doesn't mean 'born out of' .. or 'not existing before'..... this is more like heirdom.. Jesus as the 'Supreme Heir'. This is because Jesus was never not existing. He was in human form.. but also around b4 that .. pre incarnate. When God was talking to people personally .. like in the garden of Eden.. with people in a form.. was that Jesus? I would think so.

The 'ye are gods' verse in the bible is a reference to magistrates and judges. That's the context of that verse. Not that men can be God.. or 'little gods' as Benny Hinn and some others would have you believe.
At the end of this world raptured believers and those with Christ will judge angels.

That's as close to becoming God, as one can get.

I can't even fathom that.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#91
The Father is greater than I....

Jesus says this.. and then guess what?

He ascends! He is then one with the Father ..equal.

So Jesus isn't inferior
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
403
71
28
#92
1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

If Christ is not the Father, then trinitarians must believe there are 2 Holy Spirits in believers.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#93
1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

If Christ is not the Father, then trinitarians must believe there are 2 Holy Spirits in believers.
God's Spirit is the Holy Spirit
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#94
This may seem a strangely basic issue to many, as they have this matter entrenched in their mind, but my background makes me unsure of things. I'll briefly elaborate, although at the moment, I'm not thinking as clearly as I otherwise would.
I am different than some in that I do not require a complete understanding of everything to have joy and peace. I know Jesus loves me and that His ways are higher than my own. Is it possible that there are some concepts that our minds will not be completely able to grasp until the time of their future glorification? I'm ok with temporarily seeing through a glass darkly.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#95
If Christ is not the Father, then trinitarians must believe there are 2 Holy Spirits in believers.
????????

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One. Do you find such things as triangles complex? A triangle is three points and is one object.

The Son manifested on Earth and went to the Cross, the Spirit currently manifests within us, and the Father was how God presented Himself to His people in the OT. All and One existed from eternity past and shall exist for eternity future.

It is ok to not grasp it, but it is not ok to deny it. Just remember that the Father and Son did talk to each other when the Son was on Earth. The Spirit is present here below while the Father and Son currently reside in Heaven.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,265
3,101
113
#96
This may seem a strangely basic issue to many, as they have this matter entrenched in their mind, but my background makes me unsure of things. I'll briefly elaborate, although at the moment, I'm not thinking as clearly as I otherwise would.
I was not born into a Christian (or any other religious) home and in my teens was a vehement atheist. I was later more questioning and when I was 26, I met people from a religious group called "The Way" (I don't know how many readers have heard of them). They were unitarians (with a small "u" - not the main Unitarian church). At that time, I knew almost nothing about the Bible and precious little about science.
They invited me to attend their meetings, which after a bit I did. I bought some of their literature.
After reading something of theirs, I was stricken with terror. It was about the unforgivable sin. They rendered the matter as follows - paraphrasing:- "He who is born of God has eternal life and the love of God. He who is born of the Devil has eternal death and the hate of the Devil. You cannot repent of seed - it is permanent".
I thought about what I may have done in the past and my former vehemently ungodly attitude.
During the next few months, I frantically interacted with many (nominally) Christian people and denominations, trying to glean knowledge. On the whole to a lesser extent, this attempt at learning and uncertainty has been with me ever since - I'm now 63.
I've "seen" things from both Trinitarian and Unitarian perspectives. I'd say, in the NT, there is, at least on prima facie considerstion, some material that supports either view.
I'd be interested in reading others' (preferably Bible-based) reasoning on this matter.
No one is born of God from birth. So all are separated by sin, dead to God and unable to love God. If your understanding was correct, no one could be saved. In Adam, all die (1 Corinthians 15:22). If it was not possible to repent, then no one could be saved and Jesus died in vain.

The unforgivable sin is to call the work of the Holy Spirit evil. (Mark 3:20-30). I met a young man, at Teen Challenge, who constantly mocked Christians. He went from church to church, sponging off them where he could and laughing at their gullibility. I went overseas for a few months (Navy). I met him again at Teen Challenge. He was in tears of joy. He had just been born again and his face shone like an angel.

The unforgivable sin only remains while people keep on with their blasphemous attitude. If they repent, then the offence is gone and God's forgiveness is available again.
 
Nov 23, 2021
502
105
43
#97
After going over most of these comments again it seems that Spurgeons advice is valid; we mortals should not get ourselves distressed because we can't fully comprehend a being that is so far superior to us. This is my interpretation and distillation of a Spurgeon sermon.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim 3:16 KJV It's a mystery for sure.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#98
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim 3:16 KJV It's a mystery for sure.
How about 1Jn.3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 
Nov 23, 2021
502
105
43
#99
No one is born of God from birth. So all are separated by sin, dead to God and unable to love God. If your understanding was correct, no one could be saved. In Adam, all die (1 Corinthians 15:22). If it was not possible to repent, then no one could be saved and Jesus died in vain.

The unforgivable sin is to call the work of the Holy Spirit evil. (Mark 3:20-30). I met a young man, at Teen Challenge, who constantly mocked Christians. He went from church to church, sponging off them where he could and laughing at their gullibility. I went overseas for a few months (Navy). I met him again at Teen Challenge. He was in tears of joy. He had just been born again and his face shone like an angel.

The unforgivable sin only remains while people keep on with their blasphemous attitude. If they repent, then the offence is gone and God's forgiveness is available again.
I think the unforgivable sin is rejecting Christ. The Jews who said he had a devil , were rejecting him ." All blashemies shall be forgiven the sons of men. " But the blashemy against the Holy Spirit no. They no doubt went on to die in their sins by rejecting Christ in so doing invoking the righteousness of God > that attribute of Himself that upholds his law and holds the trangressor liable to pay penalty .
 
Nov 23, 2021
502
105
43
How about 1Jn.3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Yea , I like that scripture. Lookin forward to it.