Trinity vs. Oneness

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Are you Trinitarian, or Sabellian (Oneness, usually, Oneness Pentecostal)?

  • Trinitarian

    Votes: 45 77.6%
  • Sabellion

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • What's the difference?

    Votes: 7 12.1%

  • Total voters
    58

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
I belonged to a Pentecostal church in my youth. They stated they unequivocally stood on the Bible. We must accept it all. We heard many sermons condemning other denominations. If I am honest there was an almost arrogance of belief. And yet they ignored much of vital importance in the Bible. Doctrine, which I accept is most important was everything. But the heart of the Gospel was not to be found.

Hi Livingbygrace, It is sorrowful to hear that. and unfortunatly there are many churches and preachers like that. However, it was the same in the days of the Apostle Paul and it is the same now, we will have those intent on twisting truth.

I'm not a Pentecostal myself, but I do know a lot of great bible believing pentecostals who are not a description of what you described above, however, they certainly would speak out against heresy, there is a big difference between.. being arrogant on dogmatics and boldly speaking against heresy.

We, only need to turn on the TV's and watch some of these churches in action to see that they do not preach the heart of the Gospel, and the foundations of it!

Blessings

Phil
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
The trouble with Matthew 28:19 is that non of the patristic quotations of this verse prior to the council of Chalcedon use the Trinitarian formulae that we now see. Furthermore, none of the baptisms recorded in the NT are done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as Jesus is recorded to have commanded, but only in the name of Jesus. Eusebius on several occasions quoted Matthew 28:19 as saying "Baptizing them in my name", which fits the context (All authority has been given to me... teaching them everything I have commanded) and the practice described thereafter in the churches.
First, there is quite a bit of early evidence: Didache (100 AD), Ignatius of Antioch (107-112 AD), Irenaeus (130-200 AD), Tertullian (160-220 AD), Victorinus (270-303 AD). Second, the fact that there is no manuscript evidence to question the scriptural passage is evidence even without the support. So, this is a case of trying to twist the evidence to fit your point of view when the evidence is clearly in favor of the trinitarian formula.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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Would one of you guys like to tell me what 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 means when it says the Lord IS the Spirit?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
Would one of you guys like to tell me what 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 means when it says the Lord IS the Spirit?
Well, first of all you need to fit it into the context of the text, anyhow here is a snippet, not my owns I might add. at work at moment, so it saves me time that I havent got at present.

2 Corinthians 3:17



the Lord--Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14, 2 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 4:5).

is that Spirit--is THE Spirit, namely, that Spirit spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3:6, and here resumed after the parenthesis (2 Corinthians 3:7-16): Christ is the Spirit and "end" of the Old Testament, who giveth life to it, whereas "the letter killeth" (1 Corinthians 15:45; Revelation 19:10, end).

where the Spirit of the Lord is--in a man's "heart" (2 Corinthians 3:15; Romans 8:9-10).
there is liberty-- (John 8:36). "There," and there only. Such cease to be slaves to the letter, which they were while the veil was on their heart. They are free to serve God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:3): they have no longer the spirit of bondage, but of free sonship (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:7). "Liberty" is opposed to the letter (of the legal ordinances), and to the veil, the badge of slavery: also to the fear which the Israelites felt in beholding Moses' glory unveiled (Exodus 34:30; 1 John 4:18).


Now distinctive this is where people go sadly wrong and what I have been talking about, Scripture always testifies to scripture. We need to know our scripture, not just lift isolated texts that sound like something you want to believe.

Blessings

Phil

 
Mar 2, 2010
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And the "Spirit" in verse 6 continues what was begun in v 3. it is the "spirit of the living God", who writes the law on the heart. Spirit as your source identifies it refers to Spirit as "intent" or "essence". From verse three on you must use one definition of Spirit unless the passage clearly indicates a change in meaning. The word Spirit occurs in vv 3, 6, 8, 17, and 18 (and your source conveinently skipped the reference in vs 8...perhaps your source had a bias that didn't allow him to use vs 8, which is CLEARLY the "person" of the Spirit??) Apply your and your source's understanding of "spirit" to ALL of these verses and see if it makes sense...
Now apply the meaning of spirit that I see in this passage, which is the Spirit- the active and working presence of God.
For each verse, does "intent/essence" make sense? Does "active personal presence of God"?
Verse 3- intent: no, essence: no, active personal presence: yes
Verse 6-intent: no, essence: yes, active personal presence: yes
Verse 8-intent: no, essence: no, active personal presence: yes
Verse 17a- intent: no, essence: not really, active personal presence: yes
Verse 17b- intent: no, essence: yes, active personal presence: yes
Verse 18- intent: no, essence: no, active personal presence: yes.

As you can see, the Spirit as "intent" never makes sense in context, "essence" does in vv 6 and 17a, but not 3, 8, 17a, or 18. Lastly, one can reasonably understand Spirit to mean the active personal presence of God in each verse where it occurs.

Your thoughts?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
Hi Distinctive,

I see you have spent abiot of time on your replym unfortunatly I am not afforded the same amount due to being on night shift. as I said earlier, I only used that source for a quick answer due to being at work, However, once I on days of I will give you an explanation.

I do find it and odd assumption of yours to suggest v8 considering He was looking at v17? And I must admit your logic does at a glance seem odd and peculiar! but once I have the time to reflect on this like you have obviously, I most certainly will come back to you with an answer.

Many thanks for your reply Distinctive.

Phil
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
Just quickly, what do you think Paul is saying here distinctive:

V3: Clearly, you are a letter from Christ showing the result of our ministry among you. This “letter” is written not with pen and ink, but with the Spirit of the living God. It is carved not on tablets of stone, but on human hearts.

V6: He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life

V8: Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life?

Thoughts?
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
And the "Spirit" in verse 6 continues what was begun in v 3. it is the "spirit of the living God", who writes the law on the heart. Spirit as your source identifies it refers to Spirit as "intent" or "essence". From verse three on you must use one definition of Spirit unless the passage clearly indicates a change in meaning. The word Spirit occurs in vv 3, 6, 8, 17, and 18 (and your source conveinently skipped the reference in vs 8...perhaps your source had a bias that didn't allow him to use vs 8, which is CLEARLY the "person" of the Spirit??) Apply your and your source's understanding of "spirit" to ALL of these verses and see if it makes sense...
Now apply the meaning of spirit that I see in this passage, which is the Spirit- the active and working presence of God.
For each verse, does "intent/essence" make sense? Does "active personal presence of God"?
Verse 3- intent: no, essence: no, active personal presence: yes
Verse 6-intent: no, essence: yes, active personal presence: yes
Verse 8-intent: no, essence: no, active personal presence: yes
Verse 17a- intent: no, essence: not really, active personal presence: yes
Verse 17b- intent: no, essence: yes, active personal presence: yes
Verse 18- intent: no, essence: no, active personal presence: yes.

As you can see, the Spirit as "intent" never makes sense in context, "essence" does in vv 6 and 17a, but not 3, 8, 17a, or 18. Lastly, one can reasonably understand Spirit to mean the active personal presence of God in each verse where it occurs.

Your thoughts?
The key is not the word Spirit, but the word Lord. While the title Lord is used often in the New Testament for our Lord Jesus, it is not exclusively.
 
Mar 2, 2010
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The key is not the word Spirit, but the word Lord. While the title Lord is used often in the New Testament for our Lord Jesus, it is not exclusively.
Okay...v 17 says " the Lord is the Spirit" and v 18 "from the Lord, who is the Spirit". They do not say "The Spirit is the Lord". Whether you take Lord to be Father or Christ, the point is that this is one passage that challenges the personhood of the Spirit, and thus the doctrine of the Trinity.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Okay...v 17 says " the Lord is the Spirit" and v 18 "from the Lord, who is the Spirit". They do not say "The Spirit is the Lord". Whether you take Lord to be Father or Christ, the point is that this is one passage that challenges the personhood of the Spirit, and thus the doctrine of the Trinity.
The person of the Holy Spirit is evident in His attributes of personality (Romans 8:27, I Cor 12:11, Eph 4:30). His distinctiveness is evident from the trinitarian statements.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
Okay...v 17 says " the Lord is the Spirit" and v 18 "from the Lord, who is the Spirit". They do not say "The Spirit is the Lord". Whether you take Lord to be Father or Christ, the point is that this is one passage that challenges the personhood of the Spirit, and thus the doctrine of the Trinity.
Distinctive, If you look at the three verse I have laid out for you above, including V8, we see clearly what Paul is talking about, it is not about the Trinity, but about the New Covenant in the heart.. context is key. Blatant disregard for the context and also the totality of 'theology proper' (God).

Any you never answered my above. what are your thoughts on the below statement?

If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct Person why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had [eichon, or “shared”] with You before the world was” (emphasis added)?

Thus, how did the Son have (literally, actively “possessed”) glory with (para) the Father before time if the Son did not exist before Bethlehem?

Blessings

Phil
 
I

Israel

Guest
Distinctive, If you look at the three verse I have laid out for you above, including V8, we see clearly what Paul is talking about, it is not about the Trinity, but about the New Covenant in the heart.. context is key. Blatant disregard for the context and also the totality of 'theology proper' (God).

Any you never answered my above. what are your thoughts on the below statement?

If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct Person why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had [eichon, or “shared”] with You before the world was” (emphasis added)?

Thus, how did the Son have (literally, actively “possessed”) glory with (para) the Father before time if the Son did not exist before Bethlehem?

Blessings

Phil
Jesus could not have existed as a distinct person as that would make the God of the old testament a liar. He said that besides me there was no other god. It was the IMAGE that was glorified. When the Spirit of God manifested Himself, it's kind of like He put on a "Jesus suit," if you will. That image was glorified as God before the world was.

Romans 1:21-25

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Mankind, made in that same image has fallen in sin. That glory is now restored in the true image of Jesus. The Father only showed His image to Moses and he was only allowed to see His back parts.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
First, there is quite a bit of early evidence: Didache (100 AD), Ignatius of Antioch (107-112 AD), Irenaeus (130-200 AD), Tertullian (160-220 AD), Victorinus (270-303 AD). Second, the fact that there is no manuscript evidence to question the scriptural passage is evidence even without the support. So, this is a case of trying to twist the evidence to fit your point of view when the evidence is clearly in favor of the trinitarian formula.
Which we have explained numerous times. This is part of the historical error (as charisenexcelcis points out here), logical fallacies like strawmen arguments they engage in (historical authentic Christians worship 3 gods rather than 3 persons in one God sharing the same essence of God and fulfilling different functional roles exactly as all of scripture reveals), refusal to look at scripture in their original languages to better understand what the author is communicating, selectively putting verses together while ignoring all of scripture, etc... that the Oneness Pentecostals engage in.
 
D

Dusty55Art

Guest
God= The creator of the universe... Jesus= our sacrifice and mediator between man and God... The Holy Ghost = the Understanding of God...
WE NEED ALL THREE.
 
Jul 8, 2010
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Also a further blow to some of their statements. I have seen a lot of them pull out this section of revelations
Revelation 4

The Throne in Heaven

1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
Saying well there is only one throne so god cant be three beings because where would they sit. WHat they fail to include is chapter 5
Revelation 5

The Scroll and the Lamb

1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." 6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Multiple times they reference multiple beings. Bolded for ease of location.


The best one is Revelation 5:6-7
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

The lamb that was slain comes and takes the scroll out of the hand of him who sat on the throne. That right there bascially proves the existence of the trinity.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
Jesus could not have existed as a distinct person as that would make the God of the old testament a liar. He said that besides me there was no other god. It was the IMAGE that was glorified. When the Spirit of God manifested Himself, it's kind of like He put on a "Jesus suit," if you will. That image was glorified as God before the world was.

Romans 1:21-25

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Mankind, made in that same image has fallen in sin. That glory is now restored in the true image of Jesus. The Father only showed His image to Moses and he was only allowed to see His back parts.
Israel,

What are you waffling on about? answer the question with facts.. not incoherent rants.

MMmmm... God the Father put on a Jesus suit! please re-read my post.

thanks Israel.

Phil
 
I

Israel

Guest
Also a further blow to some of their statements. I have seen a lot of them pull out this section of revelations
Revelation 4

The Throne in Heaven

1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
Saying well there is only one throne so god cant be three beings because where would they sit. WHat they fail to include is chapter 5
Revelation 5

The Scroll and the Lamb

1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." 6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Multiple times they reference multiple beings. Bolded for ease of location.


The best one is Revelation 5:6-7
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

The lamb that was slain comes and takes the scroll out of the hand of him who sat on the throne. That right there bascially proves the existence of the trinity.

I see one sitting on the throne and one standing in the center of the throne. No third being mentioned here unless you're talking about the seven spirits. How does prove a trinity? The lamb pictured here had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out unto all the earth. Does that make Him part of a trinity?

Zachariah 4:10

For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Does this make Zerubbabel part of the trinity as well?
 
I

Israel

Guest
Israel,

What are you waffling on about? answer the question with facts.. not incoherent rants.

MMmmm... God the Father put on a Jesus suit! please re-read my post.

thanks Israel.

Phil

Call it what you may. The undeniable fact is that the God of the Old testament said that there were NO ONE else. So for a trinity to stand, that would make that statement false no matter how much of the same essence these three beings share. Three is three. And here's more facts. If the Word had life within Himself and the Word was Jesus from all of eternity, how is it that Jesus states that the Father has permitted the Son to now have life within Himself? He is the Word, right? Shouldn't He have already had it?
 
I

Israel

Guest
Distinctive, If you look at the three verse I have laid out for you above, including V8, we see clearly what Paul is talking about, it is not about the Trinity, but about the New Covenant in the heart.. context is key. Blatant disregard for the context and also the totality of 'theology proper' (God).

Any you never answered my above. what are your thoughts on the below statement?

If the Son did not eternally exist with the Father as a distinct Person why is it that the “Son” can say, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had [eichon, or “shared”] with You before the world was” (emphasis added)?

Thus, how did the Son have (literally, actively “possessed”) glory with (para) the Father before time if the Son did not exist before Bethlehem?

Blessings

Phil

And I answered it Phil. Jesus could make that statement because He knew that He was in the image of His Father. This image was glorious before the world. This same image was then manifested in the flesh and glorified by obedience until death.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
I see one sitting on the throne and one standing in the center of the throne. No third being mentioned here unless you're talking about the seven spirits. How does prove a trinity? The lamb pictured here had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out unto all the earth. Does that make Him part of a trinity?

Zachariah 4:10

For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Does this make Zerubbabel part of the trinity as well?
Until the lamb takes the scroll out of the hand of the One who sits upon the throne.