Trinity vs. Oneness

[charisenexcelcis]

Question ::

does it have a bearing on ones salvation Yes or No???

Not immediately. Their view of Christ, the so called "dual nature" which consist of a God nature that departs before the man nature dies, undermines salvation as man atones for man. There is also a strong tendancy to legalism. In the case of the UPCI, their stated doctrine says that you do not have full salvation until you repent, are baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and speak in tongues.

 

[Consumed]

Jesus said the Father seeks those that worship Him in spirit and truth, the truth being i have always believed that Jesus died for all, once, Lamb of God, ultimate sacrifice and demonstration of the Fathers love for us, while we were still sinners, enemies to God, He died for us

 

[phil36]

Jesus said the Father seeks those that worship Him in spirit and truth, the truth being i have always believed that Jesus died for all, once, Lamb of God, ultimate sacrifice and demonstration of the Fathers love for us, while we were still sinners, enemies to God, He died for us

Jesus said I am the way to the Father! Heres the problem consumed and Char has also raised it.. what diety do they worship? taking your ideology we might as well say everyone is in the kingdom, yet we know this is not true, don't we. Mormons, Jehovahs, The Family international, and the list goes on.

The God of oneness pentecostals is not the God of the bible. this is an important matter, shall we also allow arianism is that ok consumed, what about a bit of pelagianism? is that ok aswell?

Blessings

Phil

 

[Consumed]

Jesus said I am the way to the Father! Heres the problem consumed and Char has also raised it.. what diety do they worship? taking your ideology we might as well say everyone is in the kingdom, yet we know this is not true, don't we. Mormons, Jehovahs, The Family international, and the list goes on.

The God of oneness pentecostals is not the God of the bible. this is an important matter, shall we also allow arianism is that ok consumed, what about a bit of pelagianism? is that ok aswell?

Blessings

Phil

i still dont get the issues raised, whats with the isms bro, the go straight over straight over my head, just being honest. Who saves, Jesus, not isms, oneness, this that or the other, thats the point im making bro.

 

[phil36]

Hi consumed,

That is exactly the point..JESUS saves. So the question is WHO IS JESUS? are we talking about the same person.. this is the very issue at hand, and also the issue of how Jesus could save us from sin..the Atonement. these are the very issues... Jesus saves bro!

But can I ask you a question consumed..who is Jesus?

Blessings

Phil

 

[distinctiveministry]

Belief in the Trinity is a necessary condition for salvation? That's so absolutely unbiblical it scares me. Scripture is at least a little vague on the nature of God or there would be no discussion whatsoever. You had better read Jesus again and find out what it really takes for someone to be saved. *Hint* It isn't "belief". I know plenty of "believers" (Trinitarians all) who will be consumed by the fires of hell because they think, just like Israel often did in the OT, that "belief" in God and identification with His people (for Christians, going to church) puts one in a right relationship with God. We both know how that worked out for ancient Israel. Exile? Diaspora? Captivity? Yes, Yes, Yes. How many Christians today think that they are forgiven for everything and that they have perfect standing before God? Practically all of them. And yet..."if anyone says that he is without sin he decieves himself and the truth is not in him. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." The modern evangelical church makes me so angry for exactly this reason, teaching that a confession of belief in Jesus, if sincere, magically makes one right with God and, for the Calvinists out there, ensures forever that one is "safe". Mind you, I'm not talking about Christians who think they can go on blatantly sinning. I'm talking about "good people", average Christians who "clean up their act" but never clean up their hearts.
Point is, you can believe in the Trinity and confess Jesus and still go to hell. You can also believe that God is numerically one (or three), and Jesus is Lord, and be saved if you are obedient to Christ's FULL teaching. Understanding the NATURE of God is not a requirement for salvation; rather loving God, repenting your sin, and obeying Christ as Lord.

 

[VW]

Belief in the Trinity is a necessary condition for salvation? That's so absolutely unbiblical it scares me. Scripture is at least a little vague on the nature of God or there would be no discussion whatsoever. You had better read Jesus again and find out what it really takes for someone to be saved. *Hint* It isn't "belief". I know plenty of "believers" (Trinitarians all) who will be consumed by the fires of hell because they think, just like Israel often did in the OT, that "belief" in God and identification with His people (for Christians, going to church) puts one in a right relationship with God. We both know how that worked out for ancient Israel. Exile? Diaspora? Captivity? Yes, Yes, Yes. How many Christians today think that they are forgiven for everything and that they have perfect standing before God? Practically all of them. And yet..."if anyone says that he is without sin he decieves himself and the truth is not in him. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." The modern evangelical church makes me so angry for exactly this reason, teaching that a confession of belief in Jesus, if sincere, magically makes one right with God and, for the Calvinists out there, ensures forever that one is "safe". Mind you, I'm not talking about Christians who think they can go on blatantly sinning. I'm talking about "good people", average Christians who "clean up their act" but never clean up their hearts.
Point is, you can believe in the Trinity and confess Jesus and still go to hell. You can also believe that God is numerically one (or three), and Jesus is Lord, and be saved if you are obedient to Christ's FULL teaching. Understanding the NATURE of God is not a requirement for salvation; rather loving God, repenting your sin, and obeying Christ as Lord.

Amen! I had this discussion with Phil earlier. But you are right on about salvation, because it is not just a confession, but grace. Grace has not been made clear to christians in today's church. It is meeting, having a direct encounter, with God. And from there going on to develop a deepening relationship with God through Jesus Christ. How can I say this? Scripture from the letter to the Hebrews states that Jesus is able to save forever those who are drawing near to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.

Whether one understands the complex relationship between the Father and the Son, much less the Holy Spirit, if they understand that they are in Christ Jesus, drawing near to God through Him, and actively seek this with all their heart, then they are saved, because they are walking in Christ, and living in the purpose that He came for. If it was by works, no one would be saved. If it was by correct belief, no one would be saved. Salvation is life from above, which comes from God to His children. And they are not estranged children.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

Belief in the Trinity is a necessary condition for salvation? That's so absolutely unbiblical it scares me. Scripture is at least a little vague on the nature of God or there would be no discussion whatsoever. You had better read Jesus again and find out what it really takes for someone to be saved. *Hint* It isn't "belief". I know plenty of "believers" (Trinitarians all) who will be consumed by the fires of hell because they think, just like Israel often did in the OT, that "belief" in God and identification with His people (for Christians, going to church) puts one in a right relationship with God. We both know how that worked out for ancient Israel. Exile? Diaspora? Captivity? Yes, Yes, Yes. How many Christians today think that they are forgiven for everything and that they have perfect standing before God? Practically all of them. And yet..."if anyone says that he is without sin he decieves himself and the truth is not in him. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." The modern evangelical church makes me so angry for exactly this reason, teaching that a confession of belief in Jesus, if sincere, magically makes one right with God and, for the Calvinists out there, ensures forever that one is "safe". Mind you, I'm not talking about Christians who think they can go on blatantly sinning. I'm talking about "good people", average Christians who "clean up their act" but never clean up their hearts.
Point is, you can believe in the Trinity and confess Jesus and still go to hell. You can also believe that God is numerically one (or three), and Jesus is Lord, and be saved if you are obedient to Christ's FULL teaching. Understanding the NATURE of God is not a requirement for salvation; rather loving God, repenting your sin, and obeying Christ as Lord.

I think there is a lot wrong with this post, but to address the simplest: "repenting your sin" and "obeying Christ as Lord" require beliefs about God and the nature of God.

This is what Phil was getting at above. Beliefs about the Trinity have to do with who God is, his identity. You can't believe in Jesus and be saved if you think Jesus is your friendly neighbor from Mexico that works at Walmart on the weekends.

 

[phil36]

Hi Distinctive, you obviously have not read all other posts concerning this matter. once you do you might want to rephrase your comment

Your point is pointless distinctive.. "you can believe in the trinity and confess Jesus and still go to hell" well isnt that a bit obvious Distinctive maybe the whole demon world knows this ? and quite a few who maybe think they are christians.

Your post is waffling again, I don't mean in a bad light but it is.

The point is you have to believe on the name of Jesus, confess Jesus as your Lord that is the simple basics of it. However, who is Jesus.

Who is Jesus distinctive?

Blessings

Phil

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

if they understand that they are in Christ Jesus, drawing near to God through Him, and actively seek this with all their heart, then they are saved, because they are walking in Christ, and living in the purpose that He came for.

To say "because they are walking in Christ, and living in the purpose that He came for" begs the question.

What if they think Jesus was just a good 1st century Jew with a lot of wisdom, like Gandhi. They believe they are in Christ Jesus in the sense that they are a follow of his teachings about love and the principle of dying for others if necessary. They draw near to God through him, because he gave the teaching which brings us closer to God if we follow it. And they actively seek that with all their heart.

Is this person saved?

 

[VW]

I think there is a lot wrong with this post, but to address the simplest: "repenting your sin" and "obeying Christ as Lord" require beliefs about God and the nature of God.

This is what Phil was getting at above. Beliefs about the Trinity have to do with who God is, his identity. You can't believe in Jesus and be saved if you think Jesus is your friendly neighbor from Mexico that works at Walmart on the weekends.

One obeys their Lord. One believes in their Lord. In our case, we walk and live and breath in our Lord. He ain't some friendly neighbor, and I don't know one person who believes in Jesus who thinks so. Believing in God does not require a correctness of doctrine about His nature. None of us can make absolute statements about His nature, because we have not seen Him.

I agree with chemistry, the whole post is wrong.

 

[VW]

To say "because they are walking in Christ, and living in the purpose that He came for" begs the question.

What if they think Jesus was just a good 1st century Jew with a lot of wisdom, like Gandhi. They believe they are in Christ Jesus in the sense that they are a follow of his teachings about love and the principle of dying for others if necessary. They draw near to God through him, because he gave the teaching which brings us closer to God if we follow it. And they actively seek that with all their heart.

Is this person saved?

Do you believe that they are drawing near to God if Jesus was not who and what He was, and still is? Show me a good man, who can connect me to God.

 

[VW]

One thing about God that everyone who has meet Him through Jesus knows; He is God. Others may think that they know about God, but just as Moses knew that He was God, so we know when we meet Him through Jesus Christ. A good man cannot give us the Spirit, and a good man cannot bridge the gap between us and God. Moses tried, and failed. Jesus did not fail.

 

[phil36]

One thing about God that everyone who has meet Him through Jesus knows; He is God. Others may think that they know about God, but just as Moses knew that He was God, so we know when we meet Him through Jesus Christ. A good man cannot give us the Spirit, and a good man cannot bridge the gap between us and God. Moses tried, and failed. Jesus did not fail.

So who is Jesus that he could atone for us VW?

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

One obeys their Lord. One believes in their Lord. In our case, we walk and live and breath in our Lord.

Again, you are just begging the question (which means you are assuming what needs to be proved). The dispute is whether or not one can not know God is triune and still believe in the same Lord. So saying "we walk and live and breath in our Lord" and assuming this means the same Lord, whether we believe he is triune or not, is simply question begging.

He ain't some friendly neighbor, and I don't know one person who believes in Jesus who thinks so.

You missed the point of the illustration. It was to demonstrate that we can say we "Believe in Jesus" but have different persons in mind when we say that. If we have the wrong person in mind, we aren't saved. If the person I believe in is happens to be Jesus Chichorito Espino, who lives in my neighborhood and works at Walmart, I'm not saved am I?

So obviously beliefs about the person are important and can and do effect our salvation.

Believing in God does not require a correctness of doctrine about His nature.

Obviously it does to some degree.

None of us can make absolute statements about His nature, because we have not seen Him.

If God reveals things about his nature we can know things about his nature. For example, God is love.

So the question is whether you believe God has revealed himself and something about his nature in Scripture. If you do believe this, your statement is obviously false. If you don't believe this, then we should be having a different debate.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

Do you believe that they are drawing near to God if Jesus was not who and what He was, and still is? Show me a good man, who can connect me to God.

What?

Do you mean, for example, that they are drawing near to God if Jesus was not who and what he was and still is, like God the Son, the second person of the trinity?

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

One thing about God that everyone who has meet Him through Jesus knows; He is God.

That's tautological and doesn't inform us of anything. That's like saying everyone who has met George knows George is George...

Great, but if you don't know George is George, have you met George? Obviously not, given what you've said.

 

[distinctiveministry]

Who is Jesus? He is God in the flesh, the image of the invisible God, the fullness of deity in bodily form, the exact representation of His being. You tell me what I lack...

 

[phil36]

Who is Jesus? He is God in the flesh, the image of the invisible God, the fullness of deity in bodily form, the exact representation of His being. You tell me what I lack...

I don't need to tell you what you lack, your previous posts reveal this.

So would you Jesus is the Father, or is He the second person of the Trinity. Its for clarification, Those who deny the trinity, do use words that ring of truth..but thats all it does 'ring'.

Blessings

Phil

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Belief in the Trinity is a necessary condition for salvation? That's so absolutely unbiblical it scares me. Scripture is at least a little vague on the nature of God or there would be no discussion whatsoever. You had better read Jesus again and find out what it really takes for someone to be saved. *Hint* It isn't "belief".
I think that you misworded this. Belief or faith involves trusting something. If you truly belief that one need not trust God for their salvation, then you are far away from scripture.
I know plenty of "believers" (Trinitarians all) who will be consumed by the fires of hell because they think, just like Israel often did in the OT, that "belief" in God and identification with His people (for Christians, going to church) puts one in a right relationship with God.
In this you reveal your Shibbolath. Apparently not one of the Oneness believers are living a lie.
We both know how that worked out for ancient Israel. Exile? Diaspora? Captivity? Yes, Yes, Yes. How many Christians today think that they are forgiven for everything and that they have perfect standing before God? Practically all of them. And yet..."if anyone says that he is without sin he decieves himself and the truth is not in him. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, forgiving our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness." The modern evangelical church makes me so angry for exactly this reason, teaching that a confession of belief in Jesus, if sincere, magically makes one right with God and, for the Calvinists out there, ensures forever that one is "safe". Mind you, I'm not talking about Christians who think they can go on blatantly sinning. I'm talking about "good people", average Christians who "clean up their act" but never clean up their hearts.
The problem with this is that we cannot see into their hearts. Only God can make that judgement. Yet you are making it, and broadly so. Can we turn the same spotlight on you. Can we assume that in spite of you "cleaning up your act", that you have not cleaned up your heart? Only God can judge the heart.
Point is, you can believe in the Trinity and confess Jesus and still go to hell. You can also believe that God is numerically one (or three), and Jesus is Lord, and be saved if you are obedient to Christ's FULL teaching. Understanding the NATURE of God is not a requirement for salvation; rather loving God, repenting your sin, and obeying Christ as Lord.

Can you beleive in the Oneness doctrine and confess Jesus and still go to hell? That is the real question for you. Is Oneness your Shibboleth?