Trying to understand

[OtherWay210]

Willie-T The reason soon was mentioned, was in the context of the tribulation, He would soon appear after that . That is what He said in Matthew 24 ( after that ) When like words are used in Revelation its from the perspective of future prophecy . Not past events.

The view that the second advent has already taken place or the tribulation of Satan, is yet another problem in the churches.....


The fact remains, Christ will return to comfort all who mourn
( Isaiah 61 )
. Before that, God intends to smite the earth with the curse of false Christ. if people are unwilling to listen to Christ's own teachings on this, then they deserve that curse.

 

[Willie-T]

Willie-T The reason soon was mentioned, was in the context of the tribulation, He would soon appear after that . That is what He said in Matthew 24 ( after that ) When like words are used in Revelation its from the perspective of future prophecy . Not past events.

The view that the second advent has already taken place or the tribulation of Satan, is yet another problem in the churches.....


The fact remains, Christ will return to comfort all who mourn
( Isaiah 61 )
. Before that, God intends to smite the earth with the curse of false Christ. if people are unwilling to listen to Christ's own teachings on this, then they deserve that curse.

This is one of the places where, in smug arrogance, you keep screwing-up interpretation. It certainly WAS future... THEIR future. But, we just have to try and make it OUR future, as though that whole book was written to, for, and about us.

Yes, there will be a final big fight with the forces of Satan.... but that tribulation of 70AD was not it. That was judgment of almost all of the book of Revelation, upon Apostate Israel. And THAT is what Jesus was warning of. Revelation just mentions at the last part, that such a thing can fall upon the rest of us, also.

 

[OtherWay210]

The Bible says we are Not to be interpreters of the Bible..
So our disagreement stems from my attempt to avoid what so many people are being lead to do, against what the Bible said.

Im sure they said the same thing; in ancient Babylon, when not even Daniel understood the prophecy was not for his time, but future , but the angel informed him it was for the end times.

When Christ mentioned that prophecy, He did not talk about the Romans, nor titus He mentioned The Babylonian captivity, and a time when Israel would be establish as a nation again .
Which did Not happen when Christ walked the earth.


The day of the Lord, the day of Vengeance to comfort All who mourn is clearly mentioned in Isaiah 61. Christ said that part would only happen at the very end.

The tribulation Christ was talking about, was when Satan gets here pretending to be Christ. He was not talking about 70 ad. It dosnt fit the prophecy . Christ said the tribulation would be compared to everything that happened since the beginning. Not even ww2 compares to the effect the trib would have on the souls of people .


Revelation does not mention at all 70 ad.. its just not there. Daniels prophecy is mentioned, which has far reaching concerns for the very end.. Other than that second advent, the events leading to the first advent are mentioned in Daniel which is past now .

 

[notuptome]

If only all of you could understand that Jesus really meant "soon" when He said "soon", and that the tribulation of which He spoke of as "coming soon" has been finished for a couple of thousand years.

You guys impossibly screw up so much Scripture by trying your best to drag ancient history into our century.

The tribulation that Lucifer and evil men cause will pale in comparison to the tribulation God will bring in His wrath upon the world in that day.

The tribulation yet to come is many orders of magnitude above the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

Just try to take the bible as literal and you will make better progress in your walk with the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I want to clarify, im not against Christians, i love the brothers and sisters. But the bad teachings that infect the body of believers, im opposed to . Unfortunately, believers who take up false doctrines puts me between a rock and them .. Ill choose to go against them every time ; rather than the Rock.

notuptome you are a bit hard headed and dont want to admit to the error of rapture.

You didnt bother to acknowledge my grievances with the teaching.

So i dont think we can carry on much of a conversation ..

Especially true if you continue to offer nothing but vague opinions not supported from the scripture.

You may choose to ignore Paul's teaching in 1 Thess and in 1 Corinthians but you do so at your own peril. You cannot grow in the Lord if you deny the truth taught in the word of God.

I'm not hard headed but I am German. Bring an argument with merit and we will address it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[OtherWay210]

notuptome
If you can address my concerns about the rapture doctrines then maybe we can talk more about it .
You posted two verses ; exclaimed it was about rapture, and kinda ignored my first reply .


Willie-T


Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


The days Christ is talking about, is from the prophecy in Daniel

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The days here, is the week of years Which was shortened for the Elects sake .



The time Christ shorted this to, is given in Revelation 9 .
That chapter along with the majority if Revelation is about the curse, Satans tribulation that would take place just prior to the second advent ..

Where in the "midst of the week" ; the beast the ascends out of the bottomless bit;
another of Satans titles (Revelation 13:11-18 ) makes war with the two witnesses .

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Paul gave a good synopsis of that curse, in 2 Thessalioans 2 ..


And if you listen to Revelation 11, the miracles attributed to the two witnesses,
have ever only been performed through Moses and Elijah . The two that appeared with Christ on the mount of transfiguration.


Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.




Revelation 11 if you just listen Without privet interpretation ( 2 Peter 1:20-21 )
, those Two are put to death by Satan .. It just has not happened yet .


That is the reason Jesus teaches Daniels prophecy ..

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.


This is the gospel armor ....



False doctrines wont hold up to that hour .. Like Rapture, nor relegating prophecy to past or personal interpretations ;
is Not going to prevent God from pouring that cup on the enemies ..

 

[OtherWay210]

Just mentioning

The midst of the week is after the Last 2.5 months of 5th trump, the midst being recorded at the 6th trump would be the equivalent given in Daniels prophecy..

 

[ComeLordJesus]

notuptome
If you can address my concerns about the rapture doctrines then maybe we can talk more about it .
You posted two verses ; exclaimed it was about rapture, and kinda ignored my first reply .


Willie-T


Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


The days Christ is talking about, is from the prophecy in Daniel

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The days here, is the week of years Which was shortened for the Elects sake .



The time Christ shorted this to, is given in Revelation 9 .
That chapter along with the majority if Revelation is about the curse, Satans tribulation that would take place just prior to the second advent ..

Where in the "midst of the week" ; the beast the ascends out of the bottomless bit;
another of Satans titles (Revelation 13:11-18 ) makes war with the two witnesses .

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Paul gave a good synopsis of that curse, in 2 Thessalioans 2 ..


And if you listen to Revelation 11, the miracles attributed to the two witnesses,
have ever only been performed through Moses and Elijah . The two that appeared with Christ on the mount of transfiguration.


Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.




Revelation 11 if you just listen Without privet interpretation ( 2 Peter 1:20-21 )
, those Two are put to death by Satan .. It just has not happened yet .


That is the reason Jesus teaches Daniels prophecy ..

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.


This is the gospel armor ....



False doctrines wont hold up to that hour .. Like Rapture, nor relegating prophecy to past or personal interpretations ;
is Not going to prevent God from pouring that cup on the enemies ..

When you said: "

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. ​

What time period are you putting this in?

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[OtherWay210]

TO : ComeLordJesus
ComeLordJesus

Daniel 9:27 since that is prophecy, it is about the Tribulation. The same teachings in Revelation and in the gospels.
Matthew 24 , Mark 13 etc.

Its also known as Jacob's trouble .
Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."


( God wont abandon the faithful who stick with Him. There is even the LORDS DAY so its not over until God says it is ) .. The two witnesses are sent to aid and direct the Christians , of Gods elect .They wont be deceived by Satan . )

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The prophecy in Daniel mentions even Christ arrived to be crucified .It proves Christ is the Messiah and even the destruction of the temple by the Romans ....
But the prophecy does not stop there. It continues, to describe Satans tribulation, which Christ taught and clarified in the gospels, and in His Revelation ..


Amos 8:10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

You can think about the five wise and foolish virgins, who expecting to be part of the wedding, didnt make it .
The problem is they tribulation is a deception and has real consequence on the soul, for anyone that falls to it .

Paul described it well with the word apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2: kjv.


So we're talking about the signs Christ gave In Matthew 24, that would bring about the end leading up to Satans arrival, and then after that Christ would show up . No one knows the moment it all happens . So Christ said watch for those things He taught .

 

[ComeLordJesus]

Thanks for your reply OtherWay210. Many try to place Daniel 9:27 during the first century but there is no evidence whatsoever that anyone ever made a covenant with the Jews for 71/2 years.

 

[RickyZ]

I can only imagine the cringe God must have as He listens to people here call His eternal Word "ancient history".

 

[ComeLordJesus]

Oops, I should have said 7yrs not 71/2

 

[TrustingGod4life]

I'm understanding their are different views. What about the elect? If we aren't Gods chosen we go to hell? How do you know if you are chosen?

 

[shrume]

I'm understanding their are different views. What about the elect? If we aren't Gods chosen we go to hell? How do you know if you are chosen?

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Do that ^^ and you are one of God's chosen.

 

[TrustingGod4life]

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Do that ^^ and you are one of God's chosen.

I have. But I guess I keep being told different things... it's still a lot I'm learning and understanding. Like I was told only certain people are chosen from the beginning of time ...

 

[Willie-T]

The tribulation that Lucifer and evil men cause will pale in comparison to the tribulation God will bring in His wrath upon the world in that day.

The tribulation yet to come is many orders of magnitude above the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

Just try to take the bible as literal and you will make better progress in your walk with the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You make a statement like that while you try to act like "soon" means 2,000 years on down the road?

 

[shrume]

I have. But I guess I keep being told different things... it's still a lot I'm learning and understanding. Like I was told only certain people are chosen from the beginning of time ...

That belief comes from Calvinism, which is the belief that a person cannot decide to believe the gospel without God having predetermined that he will do so.

It's not true. God did not predetermine who will be saved and who won't.

God want's all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). God wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).

God is love, and He created us with free will, wanting us to love Him, and giving us the capacity to love Him. Forced love is not love at all. We aren't robots.

That said, a lot of people on this forum hold to Calvinism (see http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/161660-does-god-choose-does-man-choose.html), and they will no doubt vociferously defend their belief.

 

[OtherWay210]

ComeLordJesus

About the Elect, the bible is a big book, and im not able to answer every question here.
Id say dont delay reading it yourself. because it takes time to pick up on it .

The Elect are those that were likely chosen before the foundations of the World, and are made up of different people not just Israel. And not all that claim to be of Israel are, that confuses people .but of the elect of Israel, God will ensure they make it

But there is a history to why that is since God is not a respecter of persons.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him .

You can think of the elect in part as stewards of the word They carry and teach it to each generation.
I think that is over simplifying things .. But its good not to over complicate things when we first start out we need to have a foundation in Gods words before we jump to conclusions ...

Anyone that hears the word can accept it, if they will believe on Christ, and repent. Get into the Bible and start studying it . Christ saves, but the tribulation puts that on the line if not careful. The falling away mentioned by Paul means apostasy in the greek.

 

[Magenta]

I can only imagine the cringe God must have as He listens to people here call His eternal Word "ancient history".

God understands human beings better than human beings do

 

[TrustingGod4life]

ComeLordJesus

About the Elect, the bible is a big book, and im not able to answer every question here.
Id say dont delay reading it yourself. because it takes time to pick up on it .

The Elect are those that were likely chosen before the foundations of the World, and are made up of different people not just Israel. And not all that claim to be of Israel are, that confuses people .but of the elect of Israel, God will ensure they make it

But there is a history to why that is since God is not a respecter of persons.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him .

You can think of the elect in part as stewards of the word They carry and teach it to each generation.
I think that is over simplifying things .. But its good not to over complicate things when we first start out we need to have a foundation in Gods words before we jump to conclusions ...

Anyone that hears the word can accept it, if they will believe on Christ, and repent. Get into the Bible and start studying it . Christ saves, but the tribulation puts that on the line if not careful. The falling away mentioned by Paul means apostasy in the greek.

So the falling away is during the tribualtion? Because people are deciding to stop believing?