Twinkling of an eye

[dcontroversal]

we were just looking at this verse earlier today. that's the NIV you quoted -- where they made an interpretive change in translation, presumably to try to make sense out of what He says - because the Greek, and most other English translations, looks like its clearly "I am no longer in the world" -- present tense, not future. i.e. at the time He says this He is literally saying He is no longer in the world.

sort of a side-track, sorry. just interesting because literally about the same time of day as you posted, two hours before i read this, my wife and i were talking about exactly this verse and whether NIV is correct or not. it came up while we were listening to a teaching series on Joel, which, obviously, must cover Revelation 2-3.

which.. so this post isn't completely off topic -- church of Philadelphia:

He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:​

I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie — I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.​

(Revelation 3:7-10)​

they are saved - kept from - the trial of the earth, the hour of testing ((Jacob's trouble?)) because they have kept His word, not denying His name
they go through an open door. to where?

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here .."​

(Revelation 4:1) ​

The word kept means to guard from loss or harm...NOT remove......and what about the other 6 churches.......no such animal as a split general rapture

 

[posthuman]

The word kept means to guard from loss or harm...NOT remove......and what about the other 6 churches.......no such animal as a split general rapture

depends; are we talking about ..

• 7 literal congregations that existed in 1st century AD and this is not applicable to anything but those time-and-place-specific churches?
• 7 specifically delineated church 'ages' such that each of the 7 is applies to the entire church all across the world for a certain time period and then no longer applies once the next 'age' is entered into?
• 7 'categories' of some kind within the entire church body, which may be concurrent - so that for example at any point in history the message to each of the 7 is applicable to the church as an whole?
• something else?

 

[dcontroversal]

depends; are we talking about ..

• 7 literal congregations that existed in 1st century AD and this is not applicable to anything but those time-and-place-specific churches?
• 7 specifically delineated church 'ages' such that each of the 7 is applies to the entire church all across the world for a certain time period and then no longer applies once the next 'age' is entered into?
• 7 'categories' of some kind within the entire church body, which may be concurrent - so that for example at any point in history the message to each of the 7 is applicable to the church as an whole?
• something else?

My view has always been that these 7 churches represent the types of churches that will be on the planet during the church age.....I do not buy dispensations <--WHY.....because ALL 7 (the characteristics of the 7) can be found to this very day.........

 

[posthuman]

My view has always been that these 7 churches represent the types of churches that will be on the planet during the church age.....I do not buy dispensations <--WHY.....because ALL 7 (the characteristics of the 7) can be found to this very day.........

me too

so, we've got Philadelphia today ((they go through an open door that no one can open or close but Christ, and are 'kept' from the trial))
and we've got Laodicia today ((Christ stands at the door and knocks for them; they can open it and He will save them))
could that be some raptured ((Philly)), some saved through the tribulation ((Lao))?

same door? is the door in Rev. 4:1 the same door, a second door or a third door?
in Rev. 19:11 there's 'heaven standing open' - same door, 2nd door, 3rd door, 4th door?

and Jesus is THE DOOR!
dude, this is far above me -- i'm just trying to sweep up bread crumbs

 

[Nehemiah6]

why would God separate His people like that? one people one shepherd.

Once we understand that WITHIN THE ETERNAL KINGDOM OF GOD there are two entities (1) the Church and (2) redeemed and restored Israel on earth, we will accept the fact that God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church as well as one for Israel under Christ and on this earth (surrounded by saved nations).

When we recall that the Abrahamic Covenant gave the land of greater Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates) to the twelve tribes of Israel for an everlasting possession, we can see that this distinction is unavoidable. Please see Ezekiel 48.

so the Church doesnt even come down with Jesus to the millennium? is that what you are saying did i understand it? just doesnt make sense if Jesus returns with His saints.

While the eternal home of the Church is the New Jerusalem in Heaven, the saints will undoubtedly reign with Christ on earth, but we do not know the exact details of how this will be accomplished.

But one can apply the analogy of the circuit judges in the Old West in America, who traveled around in a circuit administering justice, but eventually returned home.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Jesus is coming from HEAVEN and BRINGING the dead SAINTS in Christ WITH HIM....WE MEET in the AIR...not heaven!

We meet in the air and RETURN to Heaven. The sequence of events is as below:

1. The Resurrection/Rapture "in the twinkling of an eye".

2. The Lord meets all the saints in the air and returns with them to Heaven.

3. The Judgment Seat of Christ (for judging works and handing rewards) in Heaven

4. The Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven

5. The Second Coming of Christ with His saints and angels (giving the appearance of clouds) to earth for the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Ahwatukee]

we were just looking at this verse earlier today. that's the NIV you quoted -- where they made an interpretive change in translation, presumably to try to make sense out of what He says - because the Greek, and most other English translations, looks like its clearly "I am no longer in the world" -- present tense, not future. i.e. at the time He says this He is literally saying He is no longer in the world. sort of a side-track, sorry. just interesting because literally about the same time of day as you posted, two hours before i read this, my wife and i were talking about exactly this verse and whether NIV is correct or not. it came up while we were listening to a teaching series on Joel, which, obviously, must cover Revelation 2-3.

Hello posthuman!

God bless you and your wife for your zealousness for the word of God. First of all, it was the "Berean Study Bible" version that I quoted from. I often look at that translation as well as the "Literal Berean Bible." But I wasn't concerned about the meaning behind "I am no longer in the world" because of the fact that Jesus was standing there on the earth giving His disciples that information, which of course would demonstrate that He was still there on the earth. However, I never depend on just one version but look at many of them, as well as the interlinear before posting. But, regardless of the version for verse 11, verse 13 validates Jesus meaning when He says "But now I am coming to You, and I am saying these things while I am in the world," which would infer that He was still in the world, but would be leaving. I originally said this to the poster because he stated that scripture does not say that believers are going to heaven, which, with all of the other related scriptures and specifically John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-17, it does in fact teach that when believers are resurrected, it is to the Father's house in heaven to those places that Jesus went to prepare for us, that He is taking us to.

which.. so this post isn't completely off topic -- church of Philadelphia:

He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:​

I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie — I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.​

(Revelation 3:7-10)​

they are saved - kept from - the trial of the earth, the hour of testing ((Jacob's trouble?)) because they have kept His word, not denying His name they go through an open door. to where?

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here .."​

(Revelation 4:1) ​

​

​

Regarding the "open door" this could be in reference, not to the door standing open in heaven for our gathering in Rev.4:1-2, but a door of opportunity for effective works, as Paul stated when writing to the Corinthians:​

​

"But I will stay in Ephesus until Pentecost, because a great door for effective work has opened to me, and there are many who oppose me."​

​

"Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,"​

​

I would be more inclined to interpret it as a door of opportunity for the church of Philadelphia and that because Jesus starts the verse off with "I know your deeds," i.e. opportunity for good works.​

​

Also, regarding "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing." The Greek "ek" is used literally meaing "I also will keep you 'out of' the hour of trial' " Which of course as you already know, infers the church not even being present during that time of testing, but kept out of it.​

​

Blessings!

 

[dcontroversal]

We meet in the air and RETURN to Heaven. The sequence of events is as below:

1. The Resurrection/Rapture "in the twinkling of an eye".

2. The Lord meets all the saints in the air and returns with them to Heaven.

3. The Judgment Seat of Christ (for judging works and handing rewards) in Heaven

4. The Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven

5. The Second Coming of Christ with His saints and angels (giving the appearance of clouds) to earth for the battle of Armageddon.

Sorry.......2, 3 and 4 <----I do not buy the modern version peddled in most pulpits......

 

[tanakh]

i havent decide my prophecy view yet. but is it possible that john 14:1-3 is talking about the rapture? it mentions us taken to heaven.

that is one verse you can look at for one scripture that says we are taken to heaven.

At John 14:1-3 Jesus is talking to his disciples. They all died 2000 years ago and went to Heaven so that's where they are now
and where we go when our lives here are over. At the second coming Paul said that those who had fallen asleep would return with Jesus.

 

[Lanolin]

Hold on what about ..John 17:15

Cos if Jesus isnt coming back to earth and bringing heaven with him, it does not make sense what he prayed here. Or is it the disciples ave a special privelige the rest of us dont have. So not sure what to make of the rapturist belief of a hideyhole in Heaven thats just means good doesnt even have to overcome evil. Its just totally avoids it. How convenient.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Revelation 20:1 tells us an angel comes DOWN from heaven
Revelation 21:2 tells us the new Jerusalem comes DOWN from God out of heaven and we will go meet Him there.

Jacobs ladder showed angels ascending and descending from heaven. The kingdom is going to come down to earth.

Christ's kingdom came down to earth in the form of his church that he set up when he was on earth. He is the King of his church and has been reigning ever sense its existence, he also is the husband, and high priest.

 

[Wall]

...and receive you unto myself... [CHRIST IS THE DIVINE BRIDEGROOM WHO COMES TO RECEIVE HIS BRIDE THE CHURCH]

And where does the Bride go after being recieved?

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Goin to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And where does the Bride go after being recieved?

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Goin to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}

The backsliding children are still his sheep and they do not lose their eternal salvation to heaven. They are just temporarily lost. God says I know my sheep and give them eternal life. Zion and the holy mountain is Christ's church.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The backsliding children are still his sheep and they do not lose their eternal salvation to heaven. They are just temporarily lost. God says I know my sheep and give them eternal life. Zion and the holy mountain is Christ's church.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hold on what about ..John 17:15

Cos if Jesus isnt coming back to earth and bringing heaven with him, it does not make sense what he prayed here. Or is it the disciples ave a special privelige the rest of us dont have. So not sure what to make of the rapturist belief of a hideyhole in Heaven thats just means good doesnt even have to overcome evil. Its just totally avoids it. How convenient.

The following (below) is a portion of a post I made awhile back (note the distinctions):

[quoting (partial) from that post]

John 17:6-20 [blb] -

Prayer for the Disciples

6 I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. [<--He did this personally] They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. 8 For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, [...]


[so this is showing the distinction between "they have kept your word" / He had [aorist] shown the Father to them, personally (that is, to living disciples the Father had given Him, especially the Apostles), AND "those believing IN ME through their word"--Recall 1Jn4 "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." And 1Jn5, "10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life."]

[end of that post]

____________

Also, to the OP topic, I believe that "keep them from the evil [one]" in the passage/context above (speaking of His immediate disciples, per what I just showed), is distinct from "keep you from THE HOUR of..." [which is a specific, limited time period, by contrast (and isn't saying "keep you IN the HOUR of," as I see it)]

____________

Note also that it was to these disciples (in John 17) to whom Jesus gave the response that He did in Acts 1 (to their Q regarding its "TIMING" not its "NATURE" which the nature of it the understood correctly, re: "the kingdom restored"... they just did not understand its TIMING)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hold on what about ..John 17:15

Cos if Jesus isnt coming back to earth and bringing heaven with him, it does not make sense what he prayed here. Or is it the disciples ave a special privelige the rest of us dont have. So not sure what to make of the rapturist belief of a hideyhole in Heaven thats just means good doesnt even have to overcome evil. Its just totally avoids it. How convenient.

Good day Lanolin,

"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." - John 17:15

In John 17, Jesus prays for Himself to be glorified, then He prays specifically for His disciples and then He prays for all believers throughout the entire church period.

In John 17:15, Jesus is praying that His disciples not be taken out of the world. For if they were taken out of the world, how would the gospel have been preached? Therefore, it was for them specifically that He said this. Regarding this, Jesus also said the following to His disciples and to all believers:

"Simon Peter says to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered him, "Where I go, you are not able to follow Me now, but you will follow later."

The scripture above is of course speaking about their resurrection and those who would be living at the time of the Lord's appearing to gather the church. Since we know that "where I go" is referring to Jesus ascending back to the Father's house in heaven and the fact that He said that the disciples and all believers would follow later, then He is speaking about the resurrection of the dead and the living being in the same immortal and glorified state that He was in when He ascended, i.e. believers would follow later in the same manner.

Regarding the "hideyhole in Heaven," you and others need to always keep in mind, that there is a big difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said all believers would experience vs. God's unprecedented coming wrath. Because Jesus has already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon us, in any capacity. Therefore, since God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believers must be removed prior to said wrath. God's coming wrath will be upon those who continue to reject Christ, the arrogant, prideful, the thankless, those continuing to live according to the sinful nature, etc.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Therefore, since God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believers must be removed prior to said wrath. God's coming wrath will be upon those who continue to reject Christ, the arrogant, prideful, the thankless, those continuing to live according to the sinful nature, etc.

Hello Ahwatukee,

Do you believe (as I do) that there will be folks who come to faith WITHIN the future tribulation period/70th Wk (AFTER our Rapture)? I think many people do not grasp why those believers/saints will be on the earth in the time period that "His wrath" will also be in evidence (that is, during the SEALS/TRUMPETS/VIALS [spanning the entire 7 yrs]) if WE ("the Church which is His body") aren't. They don't see the distinction, here.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Ahwatukee,

Do you believe (as I do) that there will be folks who come to faith WITHIN the future tribulation period/70th Wk (AFTER our Rapture)? I think many people do not grasp why those believers/saints will be on the earth in the time period that "His wrath" will also be in evidence (that is, during the SEALS/TRUMPETS/VIALS [spanning the entire 7 yrs]) if WE ("the Church which is His body") aren't. They don't see the distinction, here.

Good day Watermark,

I do indeed believe that there will be those who come to faith after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's tribulation. We are introduced to this group in Rev.7:9-17, described as those which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles. Also referred to by the elder as "those who come out of the great tribulation," i.e. great tribulation saints.

I continue to make mention that, throughout chapters 1 thru 3, the word ekklesia translated as church, is used 18 times. And during those same chapters we never see the word Hagios translated as saints, used interchangeably with the church. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, only the word Hagios/Saints is used, but the word ekklesia/church is never used again during the narrative of God's wrath. I believe the reason for this, is because Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to when the church is gathered, which is followed by the "what must take place later." If the church was present from chapter 4 onward, there are plenty of places that God could have used the word ekklesia/church in place of Saints. Therefore, it is the use and abrupt disuse of the word ekklesia/church that demonstrates that the church is no longer on the earth from Chapter 4 onward.

Regarding them "not seeing the distinction" I believe that it is because of their not discerning the difference between the common trials and tribulations which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Also, many do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the accumulation of the first four seals and the sixth trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, this would equal well over half the earths population being killed. And that's not including Trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. This decimation of the population is supported when Jesus said, "except those days were shortened, no one be saved," i.e. no one would be left alive on the earth.

There are some who claim that, if the apostles and the first century church did not escape persecution and death, then why would the church escape it? Here again, they are not making a distinction between the common trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would experience vs. God's coming, unprecedented wrath. Simply put, the apostles and the first century church, as well as those who are suffering currently, were and are not suffering the wrath of the God, but those trials and tribulation. God's coming wrath is like nothing the earth has ever experienced and believers are not appointed to suffer it.

 

[tanakh]

Hold on what about ..John 17:15

Cos if Jesus isnt coming back to earth and bringing heaven with him, it does not make sense what he prayed here. Or is it the disciples ave a special privelige the rest of us dont have. So not sure what to make of the rapturist belief of a hideyhole in Heaven thats just means good doesnt even have to overcome evil. Its just totally avoids it. How convenient.

We need to take the rapture in the context of the whole dispensationalist system of beliefs to understand why the Pre Trib
rapture is a major issue. According to the original doctrine the Church is removed before the tribulation not to avoid Gods wrath
although obviously it would do so but for him to concentrate on Israel. According to this belief God has two separate plans of
salvation. The first is for Israel who was offered God's kingdom by Christ and refused it, (according to rapturists) at his first coming and the second was for ''the Church'' which was set up for the rest of humanity and is centered on the belief of Christs sacrifice for sin.

According to this scenario Israel was set aside for 2000 plus years until the fullness of the Gentiles comes about. Then the rapture happens followed by seven or three and a half years tribulation depending on which version you believe. After the tribulation Christ returns to earth with all his saints and sets up a literal kingdom of Israel composed of righteous Jews, sits in a stone Temple and brings back all the OT rituals and sacrifices he did away with at his first coming. This continues for 1000 literal years in which Satan is bound and unbelieving nations make an annual trip to Jerusalem for Tabernacles. After a thousand years the whole thing starts again. Humanity rebels God wipes out the rebels and Satan is thrown into a lake of fire. Then at long last comes a new heaven and earth.
That in a nut shell is the ''plan''

There are a number of problems I have with all this.

The first being that according to Paul a true Jew is someone with the faith of Abraham not an ethnic racial type. Abraham wasn't Israeli. He also calls Christ the second Adam. Adam wasn't Israeli either. You have to get to Jacob and his Sons before you find an Israeli. You need to get to past Soloman to find a national Jew.

Secondly even if you do ignore Paul and insist on sticking to the Israel/Church view of things according to John Chapter one
some of his own believed in Christ and were given the power to become Sons of God. All of Christs twelve disciples
were Jews so was Paul and a large percentage of the early Church. So the idea that Israel was set aside for 2000 years is wrong.
The Church is not a separate body from Israel but an extension of it.

Talking of the Church I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar so I will rely on anyone who is to confirm or deny the following.
One of the major arguments about the rapture is that the word Church is not found after Rev 4. The word Churches is found in Rev 22:16 but that aside. I have read that the word ' Church' found in English Bibles comes from the Latin Vulgate translation. The NT writers used the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible where 'Church' is rendered to mean Assembly or Congregation in English and the early Church used the same word found in the Greek OT as they used in their writings including Revelation so the idea that the absence of the word Church there means that the Church goes missing is false.

The Bible by and large looks in a forward direction towards the coming of Christ and a new heaven and earth. It has a strong spiritual emphasis and uses physical things of the earth to describe them. So I ask myself why would God take a 1000 year break and start again with the physical only to wind it all up yet again.

Are there two plans for salvation? If I convert to Judaism am I guaranteed a place in the kingdom just because I would be Jewish?
What happens if you are a Christian Jew at the rapture? Will you have a special group to join or be sent to a kibbutz on the west bank
until the after the tribulation? I suppose there is always the 144000 but there must be more than that around today outside Israel
so tough if you happen to be number 144001

 

[Wall]

Also referred to by the elder as "those who come out of the great tribulation," i.e. great tribulation saints.

THE great tribulation???

Revelation 7:14 (KJV)
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of {no the} great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Simply by adding to the Word the word "the" makes quite a difference. This is more proof, the new versions have an agenda.