Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

[OneOfHis]

Jesus doesn't require us to come all bathed and clean to Him for salvation. Jesus calls us to come to Him as we are and He will bath and clean us.

Amen. We could never clean ourselves even if we wanted. We need Him so much.


Though many do not want to be cleaned. Many say they have cleaned themselves already, others call filth clean.


Neither of those describe the walk of someone who loves Jesus.



If one person loves hurting others so much, they say Jesus will accept them so they will continue hurting helpless children so long as they live... that is a lot different from someone who wishes that they could be more loving and prays to God for deliverance from anger before it becomes wrath.

The op of this thread makes it sound like God is powerless.


He is not powerless. We are. Which is why we need to go to Him, and also confrom our will to His.

Not because that will save us, but because we love Him who loved us first and want to be a useful member of His body while we are here. Which means being a good witness and not a hypocrit.

 

[Unearthed]

Love to a person who is loving their sin and trying to live in it as much as possible, would be to call out their evil. Reprove them.

And how would you go about this?

 

[OneOfHis]

And how would you go about this?

Well it depends on them. As well as the situation.

If someone who struggles with fleshly desires (which all of us are capable of) and they see them as evil as Gods sees them, I believe we need to remember how we all need Jesus and fall short. We share the scriptures in proper context, pray for them, are willing to listen and seriously consider why they are in such bondage when God can deliver them.

Help them learn the advice God gives.


To hold their thoughts captive before they become sinful lusts, to pray for deliverance, to put their mind on good things and pray to conform to Gods will.


To starve the flesh in the area that is hurting you, your witness and anyone who could have used your help....


If someone is prideful, God resists them and honestly from experience that has never been fruitful in my thousands of attempts to reach someone like that.


Prideful in their sin, calling evil good and good evil. Lying about God, and using dishonest tactics to "argue" opposed to just accepting the CLEAR truth. In many cases people like this are so hardened and so spiritually blind, I will often plant a seed of truth, or a few but then leave them to God.

I will not befriend someone like this, nor are they good for fellowship.

However I still will love them enough to always be ready to have an answer for why I believe what I believe and be willing to sacrifice time if they ever even show an ounce of interest in truth.... (even if they end up attacking me 10 out of 10 times from my experience)

 

[joaniemarie]

Amen. We could never clean ourselves even if we wanted. We need Him so much.


Though many do not want to be cleaned. Many say they have cleaned themselves already, others call filth clean.


Neither of those describe the walk of someone who loves Jesus.



If one person loves hurting others so much, they say Jesus will accept them so they will continue hurting helpless children so long as they live... that is a lot different from someone who wishes that they could be more loving and prays to God for deliverance from anger before it becomes wrath.

The op of this thread makes it sound like God is powerless.


He is not powerless. We are. Which is why we need to go to Him, and also confrom our will to His.

Not because that will save us, but because we love Him who loved us first and want to be a useful member of His body while we are here. Which means being a good witness and not a hypocrit.

Amen OneOfHis., And isn't it true that we are to be "repenting" daily meaning having our minds "renewed" and changed so our behavior follows suit. This doesn't always mean it's a sorrowful thing to "repent" We will be doing this our whole life here on planet earth as believers.
Eph.4
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Oft times it's a joyous thing to know that He is illuminating our minds to see the truth and change our minds by accepting what He says and not what we have always thought.

This repentance (change of mind) for example could also be a Bible interpretation that we always held to be THEE only interpretation... only to learn by the Holy Spirit working in us that what we once thought to be true was not. For me it's wonderful to know that it's God that works in us as we give the Spirit place.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil.2:13 KJ

3 [Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while [a]effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and [b]delight. Amp.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Forgive me. That was my fleshly/carnal mind speaking. My carnal mind thinks it is 'funny', but it is not.
Thank you brother for calling me out on that.

I once attended a Christmas party with my children at a local church youth club and the losers in games had a tin of beans poured on their head and I was almost physically sick.

And, let me confess the truth. I have once again had a couple of beers and it has obviously quickly affected me.
Please forgive me.

Hey PaulNew. I wasn't calling you out necessarily. I wasn't sure if you were serious or joking so thought I'd clarify. Thanks for your sincere reply.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I have little doubt that some of you would not recognise Jesus if He were to return today.

If He were to reveal Himself to you, some of you would seek to test Him, and question Him in such a way as to entrap Him in His words.
Some of you would find His message so repulsive that you would reject Him.
Let's wait and see...

Unearthed, I can't tell if you're for real or just messin' with us. Can't you see the incredible number of stones you yourself are lobbing? Remove the plank first bro.

 

[CS1]

"It is not the churchs position to offer unconditional love. It is the Lords position to offer that"
And herein lies the problem with the modern "church": it does not seek to offer what God Himself offers.

We are taught to love our enemies.
Do you know who we are taught not to love...?

first, you need to know what love is and how that love from God is to be displayed to those who are in sin.

God loves everyone even those going to hell before they were saved Christ Died for them while they were yet sinners.

If your example of loving your enemy means to accept the sin they do that will destroy them you do not know the love of God.

 

[John146]

And how would you go about this?

Is this "unconditional love?" Ananias and his wife lied and the Lord took their lives.

Acts 5
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

 

[OneOfHis]

Amen OneOfHis., And isn't it true that we are to be "repenting" daily meaning having our minds "renewed" and changed so our behavior follows suit. This doesn't always mean it's a sorrowful thing to "repent" We will be doing this our whole life here on planet earth as believers.
Eph.4
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Oft times it's a joyous thing to know that He is illuminating our minds to see the truth and change our minds by accepting what He says and not what we have always thought.

This repentance (change of mind) for example could also be a Bible interpretation that we always held to be THEE only interpretation... only to learn by the Holy Spirit working in us that what we once thought to be true was not. For me it's wonderful to know that it's God that works in us as we give the Spirit place.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil.2:13 KJ

3 [Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while [a]effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and [b]delight. Amp.

Sometimes it sure feels heavy when it is made known we are in error, but you hit the nail on the head. There is not a feeling more lovely than knowing He is working in us for the greater good. I know I will need Him every single day of my life and pray I don't turn my ears from His loving and righteous correction.


Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful reply.😁

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe that the way many churches and Christians approach the issue of homosexuality is unbiblical.

Churches market themselves as offering unconditional love.
However, all too often they use a bait and switch tactic whereby they offer unconditional love to tempt people in and yet once 'captured', it is discovered that this love and acceptance is conditional on the newcomer changing in whichever way the church 'elders' dictate they should change.
If the church member doesn't change, they may find that they are not included in ways that they were before.

This is manipulation and spiritual abuse, and is absolutely not the kind of unconditional love offered by Jesus.

Before anybody says that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible and that I'm "ignoring scripture"...
Prostitution is also forbidden in the Bible, and we all know how Jesus asked people not to throw stones and cast judgement.

Jesus also said, "go and sin no more."

Regarding the man who was sleeping with his step mother, Paul said, "expel the immoral brother!" Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough. As believers in Christ repentance is required. The problem that we have today is that people claim that they are in Christ, but they have not repented of the same-sex life style and have no intention of doing so. It is made very clear in scripture that those who are living this life style will not inherit the kingdom of God.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

While I understand that those who are living a same-sex life style need to come into the church to hear the word of God so that the Spirit can convict them of this; what should the church do regarding those who do not repent, but continue in that life style and believing that they are saved?

But getting back to the choice that is set before the poster, as one who is in Christ, he cannot congratulate nor celebrate the union of two men living a same-sex life style. Have we forgotten that the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities for this very reason? And Jude reminds us of them saying:

"In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

In addition, people embracing this same-sex life style is written about in Romans 1:18-32

 

[Sipsey]

Does anyone think that they have the power to change someone’s behavior simply by being nice to them?

 

[AandW]

The Word of God is explicit that if a man lies with a man like he would with a woman it is an ABOMINATION UNTO GOD.
And the same is also said if a woman lie with a woman like a man...


Where the lines get crossed at are those who may be tempted to be same sex but refuse it. Maybe the temptation to be same sex is the [thorn] in their side they will always deal with like Paul's thorn in his side (not saying Paul dealt with same sex, just saying he dealt with an issue that he disliked). If a person is dealing with the issue of same sex and not succumbing to it, there is no ABOMINATION taking place unless they have same sex intimacy.

John Hopkins University claims same sex/transgender have an obvious mental illness, I much prefer demonic attack or possession.

But in reference towards the Church Body itself, these recent Denominations like Baptist, Wesleyan, Methodists, United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, and few others who have promoted practicing same sex, who are committing sexual ABOMINATIONS unto God, as Church Pastors/Leaders are basically calling God a LIAR and committing Abominations themselves.

I won't have anything to do with them and pray they change.

But with the NEW bills on Equality and PreCrime becoming Laws, the Church is about to embark on a fight for life they've not seen since what we read in the New Testament.

All I can say to like Believers, better have your big boy/girl pants on, it's about to get [REAL].

 

[Unearthed]

Does anyone think that they have the power to change someone’s behavior simply by being nice to them?

That's an interesting question. What do you think is the most effective way of encouraging people to change their behaviour?

 

[Unearthed]

Unearthed, I can't tell if you're for real or just messin' with us. Can't you see the incredible number of stones you yourself are lobbing? Remove the plank first bro.

Have a wonderful day, bro.

My, is that a plank in your eye...?

 

[DiscipleA]

There is already enough sexual immorality going around. The church doesn't need to encouraging it like the world does with their tolerance. The church is supposed to be a higher quality people, holding high standards and encouraging others to grow spiritually. Instead they give in to the people and change the rules according to what the world wants in order to gain more attendance. Just because we love others doesn't mean we should tolerate their practices. If we really love God and neighbor and trust His law is good for all mankind we will be obedient to his commands. If God resurrected to heaven people that refuse to repent of their disobedience, heaven would always have rebels in it and there would never be peace. Getting rid of rebellious ones is loving for the congregation because it keeps the congregation clean. Even without homosexuality people can still have their precious sex. Just gotta do it in a way God approves. But no, these people want to push disobedience to the limit.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Unearthed, I can't tell if you're for real or just messin' with us. Can't you see the incredible number of stones you yourself are lobbing? Remove the plank first bro.

Removing the plank would mean that he himself was involved in a same-sex life style. So your comparison is misapplied here.

 

[AandW]

That's an interesting question. What do you think is the most effective way of encouraging people to change their behaviour?

You don't have to show love
You don't have to show compassion
You don't have to be understanding

If you're full of the Holy Spirit and on fire for God as we all should be, no matter whom you're around, they will want to change by the Power of God the exudes from your being.

I am not saying not to LOVE, have COMPASSION, be UNDERSTANDING, I am saying you don't have to go out of the way to be these things if God is in control and you're a vessel willing to let God do His thing. [Like water/electricity flowing through an open circuit (be an open circuit for God to let Him flow freely)]

Demons know if your walk in God is weak, average, strong.
In fact, demons will see a true Believer coming before your discernment makes you aware of their presence.
Being full of God and on fire for God is the key to change another life for the better.

 

[Unearthed]

You don't have to show love
You don't have to show compassion
You don't have to be understanding

If you're full of the Holy Spirit and on fire for God as we all should be, no matter whom you're around, they will want to change by the Power of God the exudes from your being.

I am not saying not to LOVE, have COMPASSION, be UNDERSTANDING, I am saying you don't have to go out of the way to be these things if God is in control and you're a vessel willing to let God do His thing. [Like water/electricity flowing through an open circuit (be an open circuit for God to let Him flow freely)]

Demons know if your walk in God is weak, average, strong.
In fact, demons will see a true Believer coming before your discernment makes you aware of their presence.
Being full of God and on fire for God is the key to change another life for the better.

Sounds good, but what would you say is the practical most effective way to change people's behaviour?

 

[joaniemarie]

Is this "unconditional love?" Ananias and his wife lied and the Lord took their lives.

Acts 5
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

For years I was of the same opinion that God struck people dead for sinning in the church. But through living my own life in learning about His grace and learning about what Jesus has done for us I have "repented" and changed my mind about this. Check out the following except from commentary on this subject;

The bizarre deaths of Ananias and Sapphira have been debated for years. Why did they die? Did God kill them? Why did God kill them? Why is this story in the Bible? Am I supposed to learn something from it? What? Will God kill me if I lie?

Questions like these have provided sermon material for countless preachers behind the pulpit “God killed Ananias and Sapphira because they sinned and if you’re not careful he’ll kill you too! So fear God and behave yourself.”

Has there ever been a more damnable lie inflicted on those whom God loves?

I could give you a hundred scriptures to show you that God did not kill Ananias and Sapphira for their sins and to assure you that he won’t kill you for yours, but three should suffice:

(God) doesn’t punish us as our sins deserve. (Psalm 103:10, CEV)

The punishment that brought us peace was on him… (Isa 53:5b)

God is not counting people’s sins against them. (2 Cor 5:19b)

The good news of Jesus is that our sins and the sins of Ananias and Sapphira were condemned on the cross and there is nothing left to condemn.
God was angry with sin, which is why He poured out His wrath at calvary (Rom 8:3).
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Those who accuse God of killing sinners are confused about the cross. God doesn’t kill sinners; he saves sinners. God doesn’t hate sinners; he loves them!

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)
If God killed Ananias and Sapphira then the Bible is wrong and Jesus is not the Lamb of God who carried the sins of the world.
There’s no shortage of sinners in this world. Why would God kill one couple and leave the rest alone?

I’ve heard it said that God killed Ananias and Sapphira to warn and purify the infant church. By making an example out of these hypocrites, the church would be filled with a holy fear and kept safe from liars and cheats.
If so, then God failed spectacularly. Liars, cheats and hypocrites have always been with us, and there were plenty in the New Testament church.

I’ve also heard it said that God set up this killing to establish the authority of his apostles. Never mind that Peter had been commissioned by the Lord and filled with the Holy Spirit. Like a kid going through a gangster initiation he had to kill someone to establish his bona fides.
How absurd! How utterly inconsistent with the message Peter had been commissioned to preach. "

I agree 100% with this interpretation of the subject of Ananias and Sapphira based on my understanding of salvation and what Jesus has done for the believer on the cross from the Bible.

Just some thoughts on this subject of God striking us down when we fail. Jesus was already wounded for our transgressions.....The chastisement of our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we are healed. The price was paid., Check out Isa.53

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[AandW]

Sounds good, but what would you say is the practical most effective way to change people's behaviour?

Not judge them immediately when you see them. Talk to them like you would anyone else. And doing this will allow God to work on them. Treating someone as you want to be treated drops their wall and opens just enough of a crack that God can do the rest.